Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - Page 3

I bought my Duo and copy of Chromapure from Ricky. I picked the Duo up from his place - he is a good guy

Just waiting to find out how soon I can get hold of the Mini

I just ordered the Mini and look forward to receiving this to complement my new JVC RS40 that I hope to also receive soon....

In preparation for this and given I have always used CalMan calibration tools I started to do a search on using CalMan 4 with the Radiance and found that CalMan is able to control the Radiance in a similar way that it will with the VideoEQ Pro.

Does anyone know if this functionality translates to the Mini as well? And if so what will I need to interface from my laptop to the RadianceMini as I don't have a serial port? Is there maybe a USB to RS-232 that I would use?

Thanks in advance.

Yes it should work with the mini, and you will need a USB to rs-232 adapter. Recommended is a Keyspan model as they have very good drivers. They work with Windows 7, even if they only say Vista in the description. There are Win7 beta drivers (and Mac OS 10.6 beta as well) to download from their website.

Thank you very much for the feedback. I think I spoke to soon as I went to check my laptop I use for this (old IBM Think Pad running XP) and it does have a serial port on it. So I just need a long female to female RS-232 null modem cable right?

Thanks again

Exact. Please note that I haven't tried this myself, this is just the way it is supposed to work.

I will report back on my expierence with CalMan and the Mini. I am quite excited to get a Radiance and from what I hear should really boost the performance of my new RS40 and of course I will still have it for future projectors.

I've migrated from a Duo to the Mini and am finding it to be much more complex. I have 5 sources connected to an Onkyo AVR which is connected to HDMI 1 on the Mini. The manual refers to inputs which can be directly selected from the remote (pressing input and a number - it states there are 18 but this seems incorrect) and input memories (MEMA - MEMD) which are also selectable from the remote. How do these differ?

With only 4 inputs, how should I handle the 5 sources connected to my AVR?

Also, can the Mini automatically select the appropriate input when the source is change on my AVR?


Thanks - more questions to follow.

You switch input on the Onkyo, and the mini will handle each source according to its resolution automatically (you have to configure it for this though). This is the point of the mini. It is for people who already have an AVR (preferably with HDMI 1.4) to do the switching not to have to buy unnecessary inputs, and save money compared to a XS. The HDMI out of your AVR goes to a physical input (1 or 2) of the mini.

If the resolution is the same (say all are full HD sources), you can assign the other physical input (say input 2) and two more virtual inputs (3 and 4) to input 1. With Mem A-D, you will then select the input (physical, reassigned physical, or virtual) and will tell it how you want the signal to be handled (for example, if you want it to use a Rec-709 or an SMPTE-C calibration).

Each memory has sub memories depending on the resolution, and this is how you handle more than 4 inputs, as usually at least one of them will be using a different resolution, so you can select a different configuration automatically depending on the type of source connected.

It is quite technical, make sure you read the manual and the technical tips from the website.

In theory it is supposed to be installed by a dealer, as it is extremely powerful but not as user friendly as less versatile models.

The XD/XE has 18 inputs. The Mini has 2x hdmi.

You can tell the mini in it's setup to load up the settings under say, input3, but look at physical input 1. You can do this for four virtual inputs I believe.

As has been stated each INPUT memory is further broken down in internally to sub memories which can all be configured differently. They are currently
480
576
720p60
1080i50
1080i60
1080p24
1080p60
OTHER (where other is a resolution or refresh not listed above)

So you can see you could put a dvd player say and an Apple tv, or BD player all on same physical input but still use the different output signal types to create different settings on just one memory (ie input1 mema)

The four memories, A,B,C,D are another bunch of seperate settings set up the same way. So you can set up MEMA to use with a plasma and say, MEMB's to use with a projector.

The Radiances do not auto detect signal and switch inputs.

OK... this is going to be kinda long so please accept my apologies in advance. It's time to get all my questions in one place and settle this thing once and for all. I hope!

I've been planning on buying an Acer H5360 exclusively for use for 3D with the (if it ever comes!) Optoma 3DXL magic box. I have and older Epson 1080UB Pro that I bought from AVS so I'm set and satisfied with my 1080 non-3D stuff.

This gets more complicated...

I also have a Sammy 55" LCD that I use for everyday TV viewing in this same living room. I switch all my stuff with an older VP50 DVDO (non-Pro). I output from the VP50 to an HDMI splitter to get the output back to my Onkyo SR805 (also purchased from AVS. Thanks Jason!), my Sammy 55, and my 1080UB. I have a lot of sources, many of which are 3D capable but I don't think it's necessary to clutter this particular question with all the sources other than to say there is also a 3D capable nVidia driven HTPC in play here too. All the others are "standard" (PS3 Bluray/3D, DTV w/3D, etc.). Can the Lumagen handle the HTPC 3D?

Right now I'm looking at having to upgrade the VP50 to a DVDO Duo which will only be passive for 3D content at best. I have to buy the Optoma box. Probably ~$500 for the Optoma, so I'm looking $1200 square in the eyes (with a "trade-up" from DVDO on the VP50) just to get this part done. Plus the cost of the glasses (and emitter?).

Plus the cost of the Acer, of course, but I have to buy that anyway, right??? (I'm confused about that part now too given that 3D-VIP seems to be offering yet another black box that is going to magically make my 1080UB and my Sammy LCD do 3D??? What's up with this thing they're calling "3D Displayer"??) Maybe that's ALL I need. Will the Lumagen XS 3D do that TOO???

The Lumagen XS is starting to look like the damned Holy Grail for me. I just happened upon this thread while researching in the 3D sections of the board. I wanted to get out of all of this for less than $1000-$1500 (getting all my sources output to something, preferrably my 106" screen primarily) to get 3D. When this all started, it was just to play with. Now it's looking to be way more centric to my HT setup.

The Onkyo doesn't support 1.4 HDMI (boo hiss for such an EXPENSIVE receiver but I just bought too early, I guess) and neither does the VP50. I Can't throw out the baby with the bathwater because I simply can't afford it right now, but it appears that the VP50 has got to go for something else.

I don't think the mini will cut it in my environment, and to be honest, I can't wrap my arms around how I'll make the XS 3D work either, since I need to feed up to 4 outputs (the Onkyo, the Sammy LCD, the 1080UB and the Acer 3D projector (assuming I really even need it!!!!).

I'm ready to buy something. Is there anybody here willing to try to make the effort to put all of the above together and tell me if the XS 3D is my Holy Grail? It sure looks like it might be.

Now the VIP "3D Display" device throws yet another kink into this whole thing. I just ran across it this morning (sigh).

I'm not much of a "Ready. Aim. Aim. Aim. Aim..." type of guy but as you can imagine from above, I pull the trigger WAY TOO fast sometimes. I'm really trying to slow down and do it right this time. For example, I bought my Sammy 55 LCD exactly 2 months before they released their 3D stuff.

What about this adapter forthcoming from Lumagen for the glasses? Where does that thing go in the chain? Granted, if I buy the Acer DLP, I guess I could use DLP glasses and not need it but if I can use some sort of technology like the VIP 3D Display device, maybe I can use the projector (AND TV!) that I already have.

I've always lived on the bleeding edge of this stuff but this is getting out of hand. Can somebody help me? PLEASE?

MAN... Did even more research. If this guy (the XS-3D and not the mini) will do what the 3d-VIP Theater (/Display) will do too, I am so in. Where do I sign up?!? I want one now. Yesterday even!

I may even take my VP50 and run over it with one of my tractors just for fun instead of trading it in with somebody! LMFAO!!!!

I sure hope one of the Lumagen guys jumps in here and sees my post. This thing could be the answer to all my dreams and I'm not kidding either.

Edit for emphasis: Using my existing 1080UB for 3D saves me about $600 on the Acer H5360 PLUS I get to keep 1080 for 3D. Using the XS-3D for switching (and all its other fcns to boot) saves me about $700 on the trade-up to a DVDO Duo that's only passive with 3D to begin with. Sounds like it ALREADY does everything the Optoma 3DXL does so that saves, what, $500 more? Unless my math is missing something, I can buy the XS-3D from a well-known site trading in my new in-box VP30 (ANOTHER DVDO story) for about $1900.

Now unless my math is extremely screwed up, I can simplify everything and get everything in one box for only $100 more than I was going to spend anyway. I MUST be missing something here. I know the 3D-VIP Theater device is a big gotcha here because unless the Lumagen does this fcn, I still have to buy the Acer (or wait for the 3D-VIP Theater device to come out and buy that.). Somebody get me down off this ledge before I jump! There's gotta be a catch somewhere. I'm missing something.

I think I should have done like I usually do and have jumped into this 3D thing early and then I'd just be stuck with whatever I had already done. Now there just seems to be too many options to decide what is the right thing to do.

This is exactly why I bought the mini - the HDMI out of my AVR (which is 1.4) is connected to physical input 1 on the mini.


So are Mem A-D the four "virtual" inputs? I realize that there are only 2 physical inputs and with my current setup I will only be using 1 of them. The manual refers to inputs and Mem A through Mem D - so maybe I'm confused and they're not the same.


What is the best way to handle this situation: I want Game Mode on when either my PS3 or Xbox 360 is active. I have this set up on input 4. When I switch from DirecTV, which is on input 1, I assume that after switching inputs on my AVR I then must select input 4 on the mini. Is this correct?

Thank you for the help.

"So are Mem A-D the four "virtual" inputs? I realize that there are only 2 physical inputs and with my current setup I will only be using 1 of them. The manual refers to inputs and Mem A through Mem D - so maybe I'm confused and they're not the same."

They are not the same.

Basically for each input on the Radiance it will autoselect an input memory slot based on the input resolution. There are different input memory slots for say Input 1 at 480,576,720p60, 1080i50, 1080i60,1080p24,1080p60 and other. For each of those Input 1 resolutions you can have 4 different memory configurations… that is where MemA-MemD come in.

So for example the settings for Input 1 480p MemA could be totally different then the settings for Input 1 1080p24 MemA and of course Input 1 480p MemA can be different from Input 1 480p MemB. The manual explains this the opposite of above… MemA-D then each having the resolution sub-memories but I think it makes more sense to think about it as I detailed it above.

Each of those locations can also be set to select different output mode (output resolution, AR…etc modes 0 - 7) as well as different CMS settings (CMS 0-7) and style 0-7.

So as you can see this gives enormous flexibility in how you can dial in the different resolutions and their attendant settings into the Radiance.

What the virtual inputs add is the ability to basically have all of that flexibility repeated again using the same physical input…. specifically for the case where an HDMI switch (receiver/pre-pro) is used ahead of the Radiance. This lets you totally customize the Radiance for another device even if it is being input on the same HDMI input. If you made Input 3 be a logical virtual input (that used physical HDMI Input 1) you would have a completely new set of input memory slot with all the subresolutions and MemA-MemD settings on the same physical hardware input.

This makes more sense if you have a Radiance in front of you so you can see this all in action. It is really quite elegant and gives great flexibility.

Shawn

Part of the problem right now is that the current RadianceMini manual is just a very poorly revised XS manual so you do not know what really applies to the Mini and what doesn't.
A couple of examples:
Page 25 in the audio section actually starts out saying “The Radiance XS supports ...”
Page 34 has a section on the "trigger outputs on the rear panel" which don't exist on the Mini.
I'm sure there are many more mistakes.

I noticed this on the manual too, but took it with a pinch of salt knowing the limitations of the Mini3D. It will no doubt be revised/edited to correct these details as Lumagen seem pretty good at support and I'm sure that they won't want people buying the Mini3D thinking it has features such as trigger outs, when in fact it doesn't.

I'm just off now to have a demo of one, so maybe I'll post back later with some thoughts.

Sfogg has already answered the first part of your question, and the answer for the bit above is included in it.

For your ps3 or xbox, you probably want to run at 1080p60.
I assume (but may be wrong, I don't receive directTV in the UK) that the directTV signal will be 720p60 or 1080i60.

If this is the case, there is no need to use MEM A-D.

You simply have to set each configuration on input 1 (say 1080p60 for the Xbox/ps3 and 1080i60 for directTV) according to the way you want each signal to be handled. You could also configure 1080p24 to say how you want a Bluray signal to be handled, and your standard TV or DVD at 480i/p (or 576i/p in Europe). All this on the same input1, and without the need to switch inputs.

For example, the Radiance could apply automatically a Rec-709 calibration for a 1080p24 input, a PAL calibration for a 576i/p input and a Rec601/SMPTE-C calibration for a 480i/p input, all on physical input1.

MEM-A-D only need to be used if you need to apply a different configuration to the same type of signal, or when the configuration is resolution independant.

For example, if I wanted to shift my picture vertically on my 16/9 screen depending on the aspect ratio for a bluray player (as this is at the same 1080p24 resolution, I would have to tell the Radiance manually), I could use MEM A for 16/9, MEM-B for 2.35 and MEM C for 1.85.

Or if I wanted to have an SMPTE-C calibration also for bluray, I could have it for 1080p24 on input 2, even if all my devices are connected to input 1 through the AVR physically.

So in this example, if I wanted 1080p24 in Rec-709 in 16/9, I would select input1 MEM A. The radiance would automatically select the 1080p24 based on the resolution of the signal sent to input1 (physical), and MEM A would keep the picture full screen.

If I wanted 1080p24 in SMPTE-C in 2.25, I would select virtual input2 (SMPTE-C) and MEM B (2.35) would shift the picture according to the (undetectable) aspect ratio.

And so on...

I hope this clarifies rather than confuses. Please note than I haven't played with a Radiance personally yet, I only had a demo from the excellent RickyJ, and read the manual/radiance tips.

If any of the guys who have actually played wih a Radiance correct me (like Gordon or Sfogg), they are right!

Having had a play with one of these today I can now understand the menus a bit better. It's very familiar having owned a HDQ previously, but it seemed logical enough to move aroud the menus. I now understand the 'style' part a bit better as this is something I'll use as it contains the masking settings: For non lens use I want 0 masking, but due to my long throw and Isco II lens I need about 2% masking to remove overspill. I currently use the HD350's own masking control, but with the Mini3D I'll be able to set this up in different 'styles' which in turn can be assigned to different mem A-D.

As I always prefered the upscaling of my old HDQ to the Edge I'm currently using, I'm kind of buying this a little on faith as the upscaling is supposed to be better (but having got home I've realised I didn't ask to see any DVDs upscaled )). However, DVDs are a very small part of my viewing these days anyway such that the Edge is 'good enough' the M3D will only be better.

It's a tiny unit, so I'll be able to hide it away under my equipment cabinet which helps clear some of the clutter. It's just such a flexible device that even if the final calibrated picture doesn't look any better than my current Edge+VEQ setup I'll still be happy, especially once I can autocalibrate using Chromapure.

Anyway, I should have mine in a couple of weeks having placed my order just before this post.

Can I use the Mini to store several inputs to calibrate display "A" and then use other memories to store the same device inputs to store calibrations for display "B" even though there is only one HDMI output? I see ability for multiple memories for each HDMI input, but no mention of such ability on the output.

Yes, that is what the Output Config 0-7, CMS 0-7 and Style 0-7 settings can be used for.

Say Display 1 is 720p and Display 2 is 1080p.

You could set Output Config 0 to 720p, set CMS 0 to the calibration needed for the 720p display and Style 0 for whatever you needed for that display.

Likewise set Output Config 1 to 1080p, set CMS 1 to the calibation for that display and Style 1 for whatever you needed.

Set MemA (in all input resolutions) for Output 0, CMS 0 and Style 0. Set MemB (for all input resolutions) for Output 1, CMS 1 and Style 1.

Select MemA when using the 720p display and MemB for the 1080p display.

If desired you can get even trickier then that. For example Set 720p MemA to Output 0 but 1080p MemA to Output 1...etc...etc..etc.

Shawn

Thanks for the info. Looks like the Mini is a lot more flexible than I thought. I'm thinking of using it for both a projector at one end of the room and a plasma at the other.

I think the Mini3D is really flexible once you take all the virtual inputs into account. I'm going to be using my M3D with a projector (HD350 for now), a TV in the same room and another in an adjacent room. The output of the M3D will go through an existing 1 in 4 out HDMI splitter as the Edge currently does.

This will still likely leave me with a spare memory 'D' incase I want some variation in calibration for my projector (SMPTE-C perhaps). With the virtual inputs and per resolution memories I reckon I'm well covered for all the combinations I'll need from an Oppo 93, a PVR and a HTPC. I'll just use my AV9 audio processor to switch between two of the sources and the third can go direct into HDMI 2 on the M3D.

It may not have the physical inputs of the XS but with a bit of planing it can control even quite a complex setup. I'm still writing out what inputs/resolutions I'm going to send into it while I'm waiting for it to arrive, so I'll be ready to go. I recall only using one input on my old HDQ as I did the switching in a previous AV receiver I had and relied on the per resolution memories to sort the various sources, which were all different resolutions.

I can't wait to get mine now, but I know it'll be a couple of weeks yet.

Missed these.

The Mini is extremely similar to the XS in all but input selection and output (since there is only one).

I am planning another spin through the manuals very soon. I will try to clean these up, but in reality they are minor in my opinion. Thanks for pointing them out.

Feel free to give us a call or email support@luamgen.com with questions, but it does sounds like the RadianceXS-3D is a good match for your setup.

The guys from Spectralcal replied to an email of mine. Some good news for everyone who is buying a Mini. Apparently Spectracal will be offering a relatively inexpensive license add-on for direct control of the Radiance for people like me that have a DIY license.

Also, Spectralcal is working on saturation measurements so we can all see how well the Radiance tracks saturations.

Just to balance this up I understand that a similar automatic calibration will be possible using Chromapure. As I already have the Professional version V2.0.3 I believe this upgrade will be FOC. I look forward to being able to press a button and let the system calibrate itself. Even if it's not 100% spot on, then at least I'll be able to make some relatively quick tweaks using the M3D rather than the cumbersome controls of my HD350. Although it's overkill for a HD350, the M3D will be there for future upgrades, like when users are 'giving away' their X7s in their rush to buy the next new model. Seeing that all isn't perfect in the JVC camp, waiting it out seems a good ploy anyway.

If only there was an add on that gives me an extra 30,000:1 on/off and 1000:1 ANSI.

You still have to drive the car a bit even though the transmission is an automatic. The auto calibration is not press a button, get a quickie, and come back and its calibrated. If it was, what would you guys who spend more time calibrating your displays, tweaking, yada yada do with your spare time? Watch content?

Mini3Ds are now in a back order state. Jim with the help of his friends has sold through his entire first production run. I have a mini here that we will be using to calibrate a RS40 for a customer when it arrives. I haven't opened it and I won't because it ids a functional subset unit of my Radiance XS. There is real;ly no need to check a mini out if you have checked out an RS.


Re upscaling. I do distinguish between upscaling and deinterlacing.

The ring free scaling of the Lumagens to me is worth the price of admission alone. Just to scale my sports in 720p to all my projectors' 1080p. Deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p is always interesting and very dependent of the deinterlacing chip the processor designer chooses to use. I really enjoy the deinterlacing setting the Lumagens provide allowing one to trade off increased combing artifacts for more detail. Thjis is not a detail setting in a display which degrades detail while giving the appearance of increased detail. Deinterlacing costs some detail. Its part and parcel to combing two interlaced frames into one progressive frame. Here the Lumagen says if you suffer a bit more combing from time to time, we can give your more of the real detail. I usually keep the deinterlacing slider set hard over to detail (its not a slider, you step to a number). There are all sorts of goodies to play with in these but it shouldn't scare you. Most use only a few features I suspect. But its the flexibility which impresses. If you have something needing a processing fix, the machine usually has a feature to enable the fix. And damn if it doesn't, a call to Jim and a feature is added to handle what you need, ergo the coming conversion of 720p sbs to 720p frame packed. Lumagen provides the best customer service out there. AVS is proud to be a Lumagen dealer. Very proud.

I hope they're not on backorder as I've been told to expect mine next week.

And yes, if it did do all the calibration, then I could just get on with watching as that's the whole point of my setup: It's not a testbed for AV devices to be analysed on. If I had to tweak a few points WRT gamma for example, I could live with that, but I'd prefer to be able to press a button and go. Maybe that's expecting a bit too much, but it's a target to aim for IMHO. Having a nice set of calibration results is good, but the time I spend getting them could be better spent just enjoying the picture.

No need to worry Kelvin your unit left the US this week

I think I live a little bit in fear that auto-calibration wll do as good a job as I can in less time. First we had people losing jobs to machines. Now people losing hobbies to machines? I guess that we don't have to use it.