Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - Page 23

Well, I'm not going to have to worry about this after all.

After severe cognitive dissonance, I decided to cancel the HX929 and get a 55" VT50 instead. I had several reasons, but in particular the wider experience base on AVS and other sites for Lumagen and Calman/AutoCal combined with the VT50 played a role, as well as a desire to avoid compatibility issues. While the Panny has its own ISF modes and calibration capabilities, the Lumagen adds some tweaks that I want to try out with scaling and more specific calibration to particular inputs, and for me it's a long-term investment and building a learning curve for future planning (e.g. having a projector in a future home along with the TV). Plus it's plasma.

Looking forward to enjoying both - and mining these threads to find out how to get the best out of our components. After all, learning and educating ourselves is what makes this a hobby. Even if social media drove my choice.
Edited by sdrucker - 12/4/12 at 5:39pm

Is this method only recommended for 3D watching or also for 2D?
I was thinking of connecting all my sources into my AVR including my Oppo 93 using the HDMI 1 output and then from AVR into Mini 3D. But will i gain anything by separating the video & audio using both the outputs on the Oppo instead?

I only watch 2D.

I use it for both 2D and 3D--the benefit of splitting the signals is avoiding the alteration that the receiver/processor adds to the signal before it exits the AVR. Various test portions of AVR reviews have shown that most AVR's, even in direct or passthrough modes, AVRs and processors slightly alter the video signal (If you search this thread, you'll probably find some examples) but by splitting video and audio signals, you make sure the picture is 100% clean as it enters the Lumagen.

I also am using this method...My situation is a bit more complex as I have 2 output, so I have Lumagen output to PJ (and AVR), while the AVR output to my old plasma...
My oppo do get confused (I thought) if I have Lumagen output audio to my AVR. I could not get any sound out that way..

New RadianceMini owner here. Other than calibration and some aspect ratio stuff (which were the two primary reasons I bought the device along with better upscaling), are there any other 'front-and-center' type features I should be checking out/trying? I know this thing is like a workhorse and I'm just using a small small subset of its features, so would welcome other features people think I may find useful.

components incude a pioneer AVR, a panasonic 50in plasma, a darblet, and a jvc x55 and a soon-to-depart x30. sources are TWC cable box, PS3 and an Xbox. currently piping everything through the AVR and then running one HDMI out to the darblet and then into the splitter off to the PJ and panny plasma.

Thanks!
Rukus

Well as you've bought the Mini3D I'm presuming you have a meter and software to calibrate? If so then I'd recommend you pay the small upgrade charge to allow the autocal feature to work so that you can have the 125 point CMS. This will likely be a good improvement over the CMS in the X55 (though as yet we don't know how linear it is, previous JVC CMSs haven't been quite so good on that score). I run mine through a splitter to my main TV and projector, then to another room for a second TV. There are enough memories to allow this (though of course if more than one display is in use then only one can use it's correct calibration setting in the Mini3D, but that's never an issue for me).

I am new to the home theater set up and have an Epson 8350, Charter Cable, a PS3 doing my Blu ray playing and a Yamaha 667 I am thinking about getting a Mini3D but like the previous post I am thinking about getting a meter and software.

Would you recomend getting a Lumagen w/out a meter & software and picking that up later? Or would you not buy anything until I can get both?

And if I am able to get both (I do have a Christmas bonus coming up...but not sure how much it will be)

Does anyone have any suggestions on calibration meter and software 1) relatively easy to learn since I am new to this
2) Won't break the bank.

Thanks in advance.

Sam

In my opinion the basics of calibration are not that difficult, they do require some reading/studying though. A good start is the greyscale for dummies website. Being good at it is a different thing, it will take experience and a few tries to get to know your equipment calibrationwise. For software there are chromapure and calman, results are the same, but I believer calman is more flexible as far as workflow, chromapure is more staightforward and easier for the beginner. I'd recommend the display 3 pro with chromapure as good value at 600 dollars including software.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

I can second your recommendation in all regards.   I think ChromaPure is easier for the novice, as I am, and the Display3 Pro is a good product and excellent value.

This is what I'm using too with my Mini3D. I found Chromapure was easier to follow when I first started learning calibration a few years ago. Without some calibration equipment (or getting a Pro in) I''m not sure what use the Mini3D would be apart from upscaling, deinterlacing and cropping. You can't adjust the CMS/greyscale by eye.

I have a n00b question. In chromapure I set the cms to RGB, since that is how the mini works. But how do I adjust the individual luminance levels for RGBYCM using the mini CMS?

Edit: nevermind, i realised the error in my reasoning already
Edited by Wouter73 - 12/10/12 at 1:49pm

hi all - new radiance owner and been reading through this thread from scratch as I work through learning to calibrate with this bad boy. a little ways in and havent hit the answers to the below questions yet:

two questions on calibration since i have not found a clear answer yet:
1. Gamma - i understand i can do a coarse adjustment by setting a factor that gets my average measured gamma to my target level. but once i set the coarse level and go into the 11 or 21 point settings, to adjust greyscale balance how do i modify the settings at each point to raise or lower gamma without affecting the greyscale balance once i find it?

2. CMS/gamut modification - I am at a complete loss here. I can set greyscale properly (subject to finishing up my learning about gamma per above), but am stuck at the CMS portion. I see my measurements for the 6 colors but have no clue what to change in the radiance RGB settings to move my measurement closer to the standard's points. i couldnt find anything on the lumagen site and the widely quoted curtpalme link doesnt get into this detail. does someone have a good written explanation on how to calibrate the color gamut with a radiance? also, any write-up on general color gamut calibration theory would be helpful too.

Thanks in advance!
rukus

1: You go to the Luma setting to right of IRE level and adjust it up or down to alter the luminance level of that point......it will keep the RGB levels correct. If you make large adjustments you may find you need to redo the RGB levels to re-align then with D65...then put Luma back at the figure you found gave you correct gamma.

2: i am sure i've written a post about this either here or on Lumagen support forum. Will see what i can find

What kind of calibration software in combination with what meter(s) are you using?

As for a write up on general color gamut calibration, this piece from Tom Huffman is pretty clear on the subject:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/852536/basic-guide-to-color-calibration-using-a-cms-updated-and-enhanced

Thanks guys. I had a feeling that was the answer to number 1 but wanted to confirm.

I am using chromapure and an display3 pro along with the radiance mini. i understand conceptually what i need to do with the onboard CMS, ie adjust lightness, hue and saturation. What i am not sure about is exactly how to use the CMS on the radiance to do that (and how to do it without messing up my grayscale/gamma too much).

new question since i also began playing with the autocal feature. where are the greyscale/gamma/cms changes saved to on the lumagen as chromapure adjusts the settings? are they just saved to the current input's cms settings in use at the time i start the autocal run?

thanks again,
rukus

In chromapure for gamut you can just select RGB, ssame as the mini, and then adjust accordingly. Luminance will we adjusted by doing this as well

They seem to be saved in whichever CMS you are using at the tiime you start the autocal. You need to make sure that if you have more than one CMS in use, not to accidently overwrite a CMS that you want to keep. As a failsafe I take a backup of my Lumagen config every now and then just to be sure. I also copy my other display's CMS settings to another spare CMS slot just incase I get sloppy and overwrite by accident.

EDIT: It would be a nice option if the CMS to be saved to could be chosen within Chromapure, if this could be done in the future?

FYI, you can choose which CMS to write to with Calman so this can be done.

So quite possibly something Chromapure could add at some time then. It's not really an issue, I just make sure I work in a logical manner.

would you mind expanding on this? how do i know what direction to adjust the inputs? do i use 'by color' or 'matrix'? how do i adjust these without impacting greyscale balance too much?

thanks and apologies i am slow at this.

rukus

You adjust by color, and you will have to check greyscale after. Thats the nature of calibration, going through the setting as much as is needed untill it is good.

Although you should check greyscale again after, I never found I had to make any further adjustments myself. Once I'd dialed in the CMS it was usually ready to go. I could do the greyscale in about 25 minutes in the end and another 20-25 for the CMS. About the same (or slightly longer) than the autocal now takes to do 125 points and the greyscale.

If you move RGB (all three) up or down in the same proportion in the greyscale at one point, you adjust white luminance only. This is how you adjust the white gamma curve at that point.

Re CMS, I use the matrix as I find it easier to move between colors. Using one or the other doesn't impact the result, it's just which interface you prefer.

This is one of the threads Gordon was probably referring to. Google is your friend as I retrieved it with "radiance gamut calibration".

At least that's the one that got me started with the CMS in the Radiance.

I've not done it manually for a while as I use the autocal in Calman 5, which is extremely easy to use IMHO. I can't comment on Chromapure as I never tried its autocal, but with Calman it takes one click and 30mn to complete all the 125 points in gamut and another click and a further 10mn to complete 21 steps greyscale, for a perfect result, bar the limitations of the display itself (I'm using a Discus trained to an i1pro2, it took under one hour when I tried with an i1display pro with the same display). The amount of time it takes depends on the amount of correction it has to do (especially for the 3D Cube LUT), so the closest oversaturated gamut with enough luminance is usually the best starting point.

@TRRichard: Calman 4 might have been a bit more difficult to handle for the beginner, but the workflows in Calman 5 are very well documented and easy to follow. You can download a demo of Calman and watch the videos of Chromapure to decide which interface looks better to you.
Edited by Manni01 - 12/12/12 at 1:49am

Question about this. I am thinking of grabbing a mini for a 2 projector setup. Will be using a JVC RS45 and BenQ W7000. Am also considering chromapure to take advantage of auto cal. So with these 2 memories for two different displays in the mini as mentioned above, I assume I could choose memory A and then do an auto cal for the RS45 and save that, then choose memory B and do an auto cal for the BenQ and save that and just choose either Mem A or B depending on which projector I am using? So basically I could do 2 completely different FULL auto calibrations, one for each projector and just save each to the two different memory presets?

Thanks

EDIT: Should have read the thread first as it looks like I can do exactly as described above.

VERY cool! Question, I assume you can do this 16:9-->2:35 NLS stretch for 3d material as well?
Edited by Toe - 12/12/12 at 8:54am

Thanks very much - i had found that thread as well a few days ago and it was partially helpful at that point as i wrap my head around this process (maybe all for nothing as in the end i will just run the 125pt autocal, but i want to learn the concepts first rather than hit a button). it actually makes much more sense after a second read through it since i think in between my two reads i have gotten more comfortable with the concepts of the color gamut in general, how all the colors sit on the chart, what hue/saturation/etc really mean, how the secondaries are defined, etc. THANKS again for making me go back and re-read it since it crystalized how to deal in the mini with the x,y space that we are used to seeing the color chart in. will report back as i play around with it again.

rukus

I see you've found the answer Toe, but for example I use MemA for my living room TV, MemB for my projector with A Lens (another 125 CMS), MemC for my projector without A lens and finally MemD for a TV in a nearby room. The TVs can't accept 24p so MemA is set to output 1080/60p for a 1080/24p input and MemD is set to output 1080/60i for a 1080/24p input as the second TV can't accept 1080p only 1080i. I don't have to keep going into my BluRay or PVR's menus to change anything for the different display as the Mini3D takes care of this (so long as I press the correct MemX button ). You could have a different calibration with perhaps higher (or lower) gamma or chose between rec709 or SMPTE-C using the spare memories:

So perhaps input 1A would give the RS45 rec709, input 1B would give the RS45 SMPTE-C. Input 1C would give the W7000 rec709 and input 1D W7000 SMPTE-C.

You could even double up on the inputs and use the 'virtual' inputs mapped to the same physical inputs so that input 3 for example goes to physical input 1 so you could have the above options but with an alternative gamma setting for each, you'd then select 3A for the RS45 rec709 with a different gamma to 1A as an example.

There are 8 CMS memories so it's up to you how you arrange them for use.

Thanks for all the great info Kelvin! This mini is one slick device from the sounds of it. Your post about drinking tea while doing the auto cal in the JVC thread is what caused me to wake up at 4am this morning motivated to research with the thought of hey, maybe I should just get the full package! Meter, mini and software and I will finally be able to get calibrated, have a way to deal with these variable aspect films and all the other great things that come as well. I blame you though, but in the best possible way! Reading through this thread and learning how you can do a NLS for 1.78 material to 2.35 was/is the thing that will seal the deal. I am still unclear if NLS can be applied to 3d to stretch it out to 2.35, do you happen to know? If I can stretch my 1.78 3d games/movies out to 2.35 on my CIH screen, I am ordering this package today! Also are you using ChromaPure?

Thanks

EDIT: The other thing I need to figure out is how to get 2 signals out of the mini and be able to use my Darbee for both the RS45 and 7000. I was thinking of running one HDMI out of the mini to the Darbee and then some sort of HDMI switch off the Darbee so I could run one HDMI to the 45 and one to the 7000. Do you think that would work?

Yes indeed, you can use the NLS in 3D, with varied mileage. Also, for memories, remember to do a third autocal for 3D (or is the BenQ dedicated to 3D?) You can set the Lumagen to automatically switch to a memory when it detects a 3D signal. For instance, I have two calibrations--one for 2D and one for 3D (must place 3D glasses over colorometer with pj in 3d mode). I assigned the 3D calibration to Memory B, and I set Memory B to activate when a 3D signal is detected. And Memory A will activate when a 2D signal is detected.

You won't need to bother with this if your BenQ is dedicated to 3D though.

You should be able to split after the Darbee as I'm sure I've seen other Darbee owners do this to fed their TV and their projector for example.

You're correct I am using Chromapure and very happy with it.

Looks like Brolicbeast has answered the stretchy questions, which I wouldn't know anyway, plus I'd forgotten about the way you can setup the outputs to use different CMS, style and type according to what input signal it receives. I'm 2D only so don't have any experience of using the different 3D options.

Thanks Kelvin/Brolic. I appreciate the help!