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Official Lumagen RadianceMini 3D thread. - Page 30

post #871 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Just remember: There is no such thing as a free lunch. wink.gif

This method scales and also wastes pixels so that when you watch a 16:9 film 'converted' to 2.35:1 you are actually seeing 1920 x 810 (approx) pixels. The remaining 270 or so pixels are projected off the top and bottom of the screen as black bars. Whereas when you watch a 1:1 pixel mapped 16:9 film you get the whole 1920 x 1080 pixels (but have to zoom back or remove your A lens to leave side bars). It's not as if masking side bars is hard if you have a 2.35:1 screen since just having some black velvet panels/curtains works very well.

Of course some people just have to fill their 2.35:1 screen all the time whatever the quality. wink.gif

So Kelvin, I'm not looking for a free ride, I'm just looking for the best option.. a cinevista lens or the Lumagen Radiance Mini-3D to go with my 160" SC SolarHD 4k screen also in 235:1 smile.gif projector to be mounted 17and 1/2 feet back..
post #872 of 1138
Honest opinion: The Cinevista lens has limitations that mean it wouldn't be in the running for me: It is meant as a budget lens and doesn't correct the image in terms of aberration so you get colour fringing at each side of the image. Sure you can 'fudge' this by using a projector with zonal pixel adjustment, but this is going to further reduce resolution as well.

I'd just zoom for 2.35:1 and use the Lumagen to 'shrink' the 16:9 content on disc menus and trailers (at reduced resolution and will have side bars, which is correct for 16:9 on a 2.35:1). If you're going to watch a whole 16:9 film, then adjust the zoom so that the image fits within the height of the screen. Again you will have side bars, so make up some simple side masks rather than stretch the image just to 'fill' your screen.

However, 160" is really big especially if you are going to zoom. I don't know what the gain is so you might end up with quite a dim image once the lamp has aged a bit. It's all well and good talking about such a big screen, but it could be disappointing if you can't light it up properly. frown.gif Of course if you already have this screen, then no harm in trying it incase you're happy with the brightness. You might just need to change the lamp earlier.

Also, don't get too distracted about lenses giving extra brightness: I've found that it is dependant on the set up: My very long throw set up (21' throw and 112" wide screen) I'm at minimum zoom on the projector when using my lens. If I then zoom, the aperture change in the projector caused by zooming means that the brightness on screen works out near enough exactly the same fL either zoomed or lensed.
post #873 of 1138
hello guys:
i Just bought a Lumagen mini I also have a panasonic VT 50 the 65in version, my Calibration software is Calman 5. How should i approach my calibration. I calibrated my TV using the Custom picture mode before i got the lumagen should I just try to better that same picture mode or should I set it to THX Cinema and use the Lumagen to calibrate that picture mode which i read somewhere that it has that best blacks of all the other picture modes?
post #874 of 1138
which thread would you like the response, this one or the VT50 thread in Calibration? wink.gif

Personally I used the Lumagen to calibrate the THX mode of my VT50 EU mode, with only one reason, to solve the amazingly annoying brigthtness cap that the ISF modes have.
post #875 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter73 View Post

which thread would you like the response, this one or the VT50 thread in Calibration? wink.gif

Personally I used the Lumagen to calibrate the THX mode of my VT50 EU mode, with only one reason, to solve the amazingly annoying brigthtness cap that the ISF modes have.
perfect thank you i will use that picture mode and calibrate it with the lumagen.
post #876 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvinps2626 View Post

hello guys:
i Just bought a Lumagen mini I also have a panasonic VT 50 the 65in version, my Calibration software is Calman 5. How should i approach my calibration. I calibrated my TV using the Custom picture mode before i got the lumagen should I just try to better that same picture mode or should I set it to THX Cinema and use the Lumagen to calibrate that picture mode which i read somewhere that it has that best blacks of all the other picture modes?

Ideally, you should run the pre-calibration tests on both modes to see which one is closer to the target, then calibrate from there.
post #877 of 1138
Does the Mini 3D test patterns include a set of 5% grayscale APL windows with an 18% intensity surround?

If so, is it 10 or 20 patterns?

I checked the pdf from Lumagen and didn't see it which doesn't mean it wasn't added.
post #878 of 1138
Nope, just small windows, medium windows and fullscreen. Windows do the job pretty good, small ones I prefer. 125 pt autocal smile.gif
post #879 of 1138
Any idea what size the small and mediums are?
post #880 of 1138
Someone posted it here on AVS but I just keep forgetting. Odd sizes as well, not rounded numbers. Like 4,7% and 11,9% or something like that.
post #881 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Any idea what size the small and mediums are?

small: 1.56%

medium: 11.11%
post #882 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Honest opinion: The Cinevista lens has limitations that mean it wouldn't be in the running for me: It is meant as a budget lens and doesn't correct the image in terms of aberration so you get colour fringing at each side of the image. Sure you can 'fudge' this by using a projector with zonal pixel adjustment, but this is going to further reduce resolution as well.

I'd just zoom for 2.35:1 and use the Lumagen to 'shrink' the 16:9 content on disc menus and trailers (at reduced resolution and will have side bars, which is correct for 16:9 on a 2.35:1). If you're going to watch a whole 16:9 film, then adjust the zoom so that the image fits within the height of the screen. Again you will have side bars, so make up some simple side masks rather than stretch the image just to 'fill' your screen.

However, 160" is really big especially if you are going to zoom. I don't know what the gain is so you might end up with quite a dim image once the lamp has aged a bit. It's all well and good talking about such a big screen, but it could be disappointing if you can't light it up properly. frown.gif Of course if you already have this screen, then no harm in trying it incase you're happy with the brightness. You might just need to change the lamp earlier.

Also, don't get too distracted about lenses giving extra brightness: I've found that it is dependant on the set up: My very long throw set up (21' throw and 112" wide screen) I'm at minimum zoom on the projector when using my lens. If I then zoom, the aperture change in the projector caused by zooming means that the brightness on screen works out near enough exactly the same fL either zoomed or lensed.

After going over info with Mike @ AVS , I'm deciding to go with the Lumagen and Da-Lite High Power 2.4 gain with a throw of 17 feet.. Should be more than bright enough for either 160" or 166" 235.1.. lowering the projecter by 36 inches from the ceiling to use the high power.. lamp hour will be limited to 1000 to 1500 hours..

Scratch that.. I spoke to Da-Lite on last Friday and they told me unless the projector has to be mounted @ eye-leve or on a table.. there is no way to mount from a ceileing unless you use a 6 foot pole.. So I've decided to go with the Screen Innovations SolarHD 4k @ 160" 235:1 screen, teh screen is a 1.3 gain.. and a Lumagen Mini 3D smile.gif

Re-cap.. Spoke to Da-Lite it was out of the question to use the high power set-up.. Settled for the SI SolarHD 4K 1.37 gain.. SI said it will be okay for a dark room and light controlled.. which I have smile.gif Lumagen was ordered by my Dad via avscience a home theater opening gift for me..
Edited by DrZaus - 6/27/13 at 10:12pm
post #883 of 1138
That advice applies only if you insist on max gain of 2.8.

The HP is still a win at half that because of it's other properties of no hotspotting, rejection of room light, and not showing waves.

Use a screen calculator that handles the HP to input your setup and see what gain you get.
post #884 of 1138
Hi all
Im looking at getting a Lumagen Mini. Im looking at going all my six hdmi sources into Marantz AV8801 - To Mini - To projector. Will there be any lip sync issues? The DVDO DUO which I sold with that configuration had terrible lip sync issues. I want to make sure there isn't before I make that commitment.


Also any recommendations where I can purchase one?

Thank you
post #885 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Hi all
Im looking at getting a Lumagen Mini. Im looking at going all my six hdmi sources into Marantz AV8801 - To Mini - To projector. Will there be any lip sync issues? The DVDO DUO which I sold with that configuration had terrible lip sync issues. I want to make sure there isn't before I make that commitment.


Also any recommendations where I can purchase one?

Thank you

I don't have any lip sync issues with my Av8801/Mini setup.
I bought my Mini through CurtPalme. They say they ship world wide:
http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
post #886 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post

I don't have any lip sync issues with my Av8801/Mini setup.
I bought my Mini through CurtPalme. They say they ship world wide:
http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm

Are you using similar configuration ?

Component - marantz - mini - projector ?
post #887 of 1138
I have a slight lipsync issue. My signal is oppo 103 - onkyo avr - lumagen mini - darbee darblet - 65vt50. I had to udjust it once, stays in memory after that.
post #888 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Are you using similar configuration ?

Component - marantz - mini - projector ?
I don't use component much but I do have a Marantz DVHS in my rack that is connected to the AV8801 by component so I will try it and see how the lip sync is and let you know.
post #889 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post

I don't use component much but I do have a Marantz DVHS in my rack that is connected to the AV8801 by component so I will try it and see how the lip sync is and let you know.

Sorry by component I meant blu ray player, my mistake.
I should of said oppo-marantz-lumagen-projector.

Thanks
post #890 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Sorry by component I meant blu ray player, my mistake.
I should of said oppo-marantz-lumagen-projector.

Thanks
Why would you connect an Oppo via component? I have a 93 connected by HDMI and would not consider any other connection.
post #891 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post

Why would you connect an Oppo via component? I have a 93 connected by HDMI and would not consider any other connection.

Huh ?? I never said I connect an Oppo via Component. I was calling the Oppo a component because I have other things plugged into the AVP.

Here is an example,

"Hey man check out his components in his rack?"
post #892 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

"Hey man check out his components in his rack?"

Oh no, more innuendo smile.gif

- Rich
post #893 of 1138
Does anyone know what the description of "dither" on the mini actually means? Here's the paragraph from the manual (and the online help):

Some fixed pixel displays show contouring on images that have gradients because the actual repixel depth of each pixel
is limited. The dither control can be used to enhance the resolution of the display and reduce contouring. Dither
position sets the bit size of the pixel for dithering. Orientation controls the frame-to-frame randomization and can be
fixed of dynamic. Masking can be turned on to clear the lowest bits after the dither position.

Why is it that folks who write documentation describe the function using the words they're trying to define? Isn't that the first "do not" rule you learn in defining a term?

"Dither position sets the bit size of the pixel for dithering." Um, ok. How? I presume more is better, but what exactly am I controlling the bit size of? And why is it called "position"? That makes it sound more like it has something to do with the number of adjacent pixels it dithers over rather than any bit size. How would one go about picking a value? What are the trade offs?

And then we have the gem "Orientation controls the frame-to-frame randomization and can be fixed of [sic] dynamic." Did the document writer know that I could determine that the setting had two values - fixed and dynamic - just by selecting the option and toggling it? I don't need to know what the possible values are, I need to know what they mean. Selecting "fixed" means that it does X. Selecting "dynamic" means that it does Y. Now that would be useful to know.

And finally we have "Masking can be turned on to clear the lowest bits after the dither position." Of course it can. And I might want to do this why? To introduce random error? Because the low order bits have been naughty?

I do have occasional contouring and I'd love to reduce it. But I'll be damned if this description leaves me any wiser than I started. If I'm supposed to just try all possible combinations, just say that and save yourself the time writing documentation.
post #894 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Huh ?? I never said I connect an Oppo via Component. I was calling the Oppo a component because I have other things plugged into the AVP.

Here is an example,

"Hey man check out his components in his rack?"

Sorry, I totally misunderstood.
I thought that there was some strange guy in Perth who wanted to spend a lot of money on a pre-amp and input ancient devices without some audio issues.
I have no lip-sync problems with the AV8801 switching devices into the Lumagen Mini.
post #895 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post

Sorry, I totally misunderstood.
I thought that there was some strange guy in Perth who wanted to spend a lot of money on a pre-amp and input ancient devices without some audio issues.
I have no lip-sync problems with the AV8801 switching devices into the Lumagen Mini.

Thank you smile.gif
post #896 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmongiovi View Post

Does anyone know what the description of "dither" on the mini actually means? Here's the paragraph from the manual (and the online help):

Some fixed pixel displays show contouring on images that have gradients because the actual repixel depth of each pixel
is limited. The dither control can be used to enhance the resolution of the display and reduce contouring. Dither
position sets the bit size of the pixel for dithering. Orientation controls the frame-to-frame randomization and can be
fixed of dynamic. Masking can be turned on to clear the lowest bits after the dither position.

Why is it that folks who write documentation describe the function using the words they're trying to define? Isn't that the first "do not" rule you learn in defining a term?

"Dither position sets the bit size of the pixel for dithering." Um, ok. How? I presume more is better, but what exactly am I controlling the bit size of? And why is it called "position"? That makes it sound more like it has something to do with the number of adjacent pixels it dithers over rather than any bit size. How would one go about picking a value? What are the trade offs?

And then we have the gem "Orientation controls the frame-to-frame randomization and can be fixed of [sic] dynamic." Did the document writer know that I could determine that the setting had two values - fixed and dynamic - just by selecting the option and toggling it? I don't need to know what the possible values are, I need to know what they mean. Selecting "fixed" means that it does X. Selecting "dynamic" means that it does Y. Now that would be useful to know.

And finally we have "Masking can be turned on to clear the lowest bits after the dither position." Of course it can. And I might want to do this why? To introduce random error? Because the low order bits have been naughty?

I do have occasional contouring and I'd love to reduce it. But I'll be damned if this description leaves me any wiser than I started. If I'm supposed to just try all possible combinations, just say that and save yourself the time writing documentation.

Well ... the dither definition seems appropriate to me. There is no circular references that I see. We are not trying to define dither, or other features for that matter. Instead in our manuals we describe to those who know what a feature is how it works in the Radiance. If you want a definition of dithering, please read the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither. Note that dither concepts are the same for audio and video.

Dither adds "noise" to the image to mask issues, such as contouring, in the display. The amount of dither you need depends on the quality of your display, and how the display handles color in its video pipeline. You can select that the noise affect bits below 10-bit accuracy, 8-bit, 7-bit, or 6-bit (i.e. position in the pixel bit depth). There is a random noise generator to generate the dither noise values, It can be locked so that the seed is the same for each frame, or dynamic, so that it is randomized at the beginning of each frame. Test patterns look best with the static seed for each frame. I think real video looks best with the dynamic seed, but with a static image you would see the changing seed values affect pixesl in the image, and some do not like that effect and so choose static seed value for each frame.

Most current Plasma and LED/LCD display are okay with 8-bit dither. Some are good for 10 or 12-bit, especially if they dither internally. I had an older Plasma years ago that needed dither set to 7-bits to hide its contouring.

Traditionally dither is only applied to bits below the transmission precision. However, for Radiance 4:2:2 output, if you dither to, say, 10-bits, there are actually 12-bits at the output of the Radiance pipeline. So truncation asks if you want the bits below the dither position to be left after the noise was added or set to 0 (truncated). I doubt you would see a difference with 10-bit dither, but you might with 6-bit, so we allow both options.

The only way to know the best value for your system is to experiment by change the dither parameters and watching real video until you find settings you like.
post #897 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

Well ... the dither definition seems appropriate to me. There is no circular references that I see. We are not trying to define dither, or other features for that matter. Instead in our manuals we describe to those who know what a feature is how it works in the Radiance. If you want a definition of dithering, please read the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither. Note that dither concepts are the same for audio and video.

Dither adds "noise" to the image to mask issues, such as contouring, in the display. The amount of dither you need depends on the quality of your display, and how the display handles color in its video pipeline. You can select that the noise affect bits below 10-bit accuracy, 8-bit, 7-bit, or 6-bit (i.e. position in the pixel bit depth). There is a random noise generator to generate the dither noise values, It can be locked so that the seed is the same for each frame, or dynamic, so that it is randomized at the beginning of each frame. Test patterns look best with the static seed for each frame. I think real video looks best with the dynamic seed, but with a static image you would see the changing seed values affect pixesl in the image, and some do not like that effect and so choose static seed value for each frame.

Most current Plasma and LED/LCD display are okay with 8-bit dither. Some are good for 10 or 12-bit, especially if they dither internally. I had an older Plasma years ago that needed dither set to 7-bits to hide its contouring.

Traditionally dither is only applied to bits below the transmission precision. However, for Radiance 4:2:2 output, if you dither to, say, 10-bits, there are actually 12-bits at the output of the Radiance pipeline. So truncation asks if you want the bits below the dither position to be left after the noise was added or set to 0 (truncated). I doubt you would see a difference with 10-bit dither, but you might with 6-bit, so we allow both options.

The only way to know the best value for your system is to experiment by change the dither parameters and watching real video until you find settings you like.

Thanks! Some of that makes sense to me but I'm still mostly lost. I think I understand the concept of dither. It's your choice of words that I find unique.

There's a target color that you've got the desired value of as an RGB triplet, right? But limitations in the display mean that it can't actually reproduce the value you want it to. So, for example, a smooth gradient creates banding because of quantization error in the display. By adding random noise you can possibly reduce the visibility of that quantization error. Is that the basic idea?

Where you start to lose me is when you start talking about the number of bits in the dither. R, and G, and B are 8 bits apiece. So how can you have 8 bits of "dither"? Even if the Radiance is 12 bits internally, a dither value of even 6 bits would be a huge difference wouldn't it? Since 6 bits can hold values up to 63? I mean, I would certainly notice it if you dithered 0, 0, 0 to 63, 63, 63 (or 16, 16, 16, dithered to 79, 79, 79 if we're talking video). So obviously I don't have the slightest idea what you mean by "N bits of dither." I would expect the amount of dither to be added would be a very small number, 1 or 2 bits, since we're trying to add noise not completely mask the actual color. So when you say "noise affects bits below 10 bit accuracy" it sounds to me like you could generate a dithered value that differed from the undithered by 1023, and that sounds to me like a huge and obviously visible difference so I conclude I'm lost. On the other hand if you're just describing the number of bits of precision of the dither calculation, then I'd expect more to always be better. So why wouldn't I want to always use 12? Clearly I have no idea what it is that this knob controls.

Now, your description of Orientation is excellent! Your dither algorithm uses a random number generator whose seed is initialized at the start of each frame. Selecting "fixed" initializes the seed to the same value for each frame, thereby causing the random dither added to each pixel to be the same on a frame-to-frame basis. Selecting "dynamic" initializes the seed to a different value for each frame, thereby causing the random dither applied to each pixel to vary for each frame.

See the difference? That last paragraph is an actual description of what the two possible selections do. When all you do is tell me that the two possible values, which I can see by inspection are "fixed" and "dynamic", are in fact the two words "fixed" and "dynamic" then that's not documentation at all. I don't really care if you call it "circular" or not, but it definitely doesn't add any information to the discussion. I still don't have any idea why you decided to call it "Orientation" though.

I'm still unclear on masking, but I presume that hinges on my whole "bits of dither" confusion.
post #898 of 1138
Ahah! Maybe I had an epiphany. When you talk about setting the size of the "pixel" for dithering, you're talking not about the size of the dither (the value being added to the input to dither), but rather the size of the *dithered* result. I guess that should have been obvious to me but it wasn't. So by picking a smaller pixels size I'm actually selecting a larger possible dither value. If I pick too large a value then when the display quantizes the result the dither will be below the resolution of the display's internal representation. That makes sense. Is it correct?

Is the masking operation then intended to handle the possibility that the display is, for example, rounding the 8 bit RGB value down to 6 bits rather than truncating it?
post #899 of 1138
So with some of the recent sales going on, I'm (again) considering a Radiance Mini-3D. I currently have a Sony VW95ES projector, which has been used for about 1.5 years now and the colors aren't as great as they were out of the box.

I am primarily interested in it for 1) Doing calibration with Chromapure and 2) Fixed 2.35:1 formatting, primarily for these multi-formatted movies

I watch very little TV in my theater other than sports, and 99% of my content is Blu Ray or Blu Ray inside of an MKV container through my HTPC.

My questions are:
1) Is the CMS in the Sony projector adequate? I have read it is pretty complex, but I don't know how to test it manually, hence the lure of the Auto-Calibration with Chromapure
2) What pre-settings would I need to make on my projector prior to calibration
3) Is it worth it to by the Darbee Darblet combo?
post #900 of 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundas View Post

I don't have any lip sync issues with my Av8801/Mini setup.
I bought my Mini through CurtPalme. They say they ship world wide:
http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm

Thanks for the link mate, I've been thinking of buying a mini for a few weeks now and pulled the trigger last night, it shipped today so hopefully get it next week or the week after. Saved me over a $1000 too compared to what the Australian distrubutor wanted to charge me, so thanks again!! smile.gif

Can't wait to get it in my system to see its CIH attributes and how much better colours I may get in my jvc x35, along with the Darbee I have high hopes its going to be great. smile.gif
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