Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 36

Trevor- Don't agree with your view on the main difference between pro and consumer is the lens quality and the few other specifics. I don't think this view is consistent throughout the Sony camera line although it probably applies to the use of XLR audio inputs. The Z1U and FXE used the same lens. The internal electronics was completely different. Major features offered in the pro line was a different recorder internally and different functions, plus XLR audio. I had both of those here and speak from experience. Few pro cameras have SDI output, this is reserved for a few broadcast level cameras.

The main difference between consumer and Pro cams is the ability to integrate the equipment with other professional hardware. The professional cams can and often do intergrate with broadcast as well. I know of no consumer camcorder that can do this. The prosumer camcorders can integrate with both consumer line and broadcast line.
With a kludge of adapters and work arounds any camcorder can integrate partially, but the task is easy with professional level equipment ( my discussion pertains to Sony only )

The difference between the professional shooter and the amateur shooter is not the skill level but whether you shoot as a business, or for hire vs just a hobby. Presently all my 3D work is as an amateur.

We both speculate on the issue of 24P in 3D mode. The TD10 is a single format recording 3D camcorder which can be switched to multiformat 2D. 24P is not the only additional feature in the pro version that requires additional circuitry and we do know that the Professional version of the TD10 is more robust in internal design and not just software and strap-on accessories. The TD10's right camera is much simplified compared to the left camera internals. As such it could be called a slave camera added for 3D. Giving that right camera dual or more modes would require additional circuitry not included in the TD10. That design difference comes straight from Sony.

I wonder, does anyone know for certain whether the JVC is using a format conversion to achieve 24P in their firmware upgrade or do they actually have the JVC designed for 24P mode and in the consumer version just had it disabled? Firmware activates it. I know some early 2D 24P camcorders were just conversions and not actually shooting in 24P natively. I wonder if JVC is pulling the same cheap street magic trick to claim 24P in their consumer TD1? I'm a cynic when it comes to things like that.

don't agree at all neither.
It is not a problem of consumer or brodcast.
Sony created the blu-ray and was part in decision for all specifications, included 3D blu-ray.
So they got 3D TV, 3D blu-ray players, 3D software editing and 3D blu-ray authoring, so THEY KNOW. what ?
That the only standard you can get today to distribute or save 3D content is blu-ray and require 24p. So a 3D camera shooting anything else than 24p is just useless.
Like a car running with milk , instead gasolin. at first refill you will see where is the problem.

And for the difference between the TD10 and the NX3D1, are you sure ?
I have both, and believe me, you remove the handle and the sunshade and you got exactly the same camera (including weight), so i do not think the differences are so great as you said.

Ok, sony just miss the mark with the design of the TD10, they made a green banana and probably
sales figures will reflect the bad design choice. We do not need to attribute them evil mind, just warn potential buyers that they will not go far with the TD10 and the twice more expensive NX3D1 is a better choice if they can afford.

Wrong! You are using antiquated knowledge. You do not need Blu Ray to create, or distribute 3D. Internally, I have been using alternate 3D storage and distribution methods here since I got my first 3D projector. Blu Ray is a nice high quality 3D format but it is not the only 3D storage and distribution format. I just added another here and it is working fine for streaming 3D.

I trust the Sony engineer at NAB who told me there are many internal differences that make the extra features possible in the NX3D1.

Can't argue that sales numbers point as that was not the thrust of my comment. I don't know how successful the sales were for the TD10. The only warning I see appropriate is to those buyers who don't know how to read specs and don't understand what is important to their needs. As my original point, buyers who bought the TD10 and now berate Sony for the design are, IMO, out of line. Sony never hid the fact that the TD10 was a single format in 3D. Those who believed that the camcorder could be upgraded were in fantasy land. So you think the internals are exactly the same because you weighed both? ROFLOL! I really thought you were smarter than that! I believe smart consumers who are ready to shoot with the TD10 will be quite satisfied with it and those I have spoken with agree with that 100%. A few professionals that can't afford the NX level pro designs and need those features, are the ones who are complaining. You seem to be defending the pro who can't afford the NX pro cams and they are justified in berating Sony for not offering needed pro features in the consumer product. Hey- I have over $30K invested in professional audio here and you don't hear me bitching that the TD10 doesn't support XLR inputs. I certainly don't feel that feature lacking will kill the popularity of the TD10, edit- Nor my ability to get good use of the TD10 for the purpose it was designed to do. I own two TD10's now.

Don, finally got nvidea vision and a planar monitor. I can see 3d video on their site, and youtube works in lower resolution. Unfortunately Vegas platinum 11 does not work with it. If you can point me at other player options that would let me view td10 output, I would be thankful.

As a totally amateur shooter / editor, I think the TD10 rocks .... Sony made this as small and simple as possible, so anyone can pick it up and be amazed. It's actually almost too small to be taken seriously.

Being a consumer cam, I wouldn't expect it to ever get any real upgrades, there's no money in it.

tony- I'm not familiar with your monitor. I also don't use Platinum anymore. Trying to make my life simple as possible with 3D Oxymoron?

For TD10 work flow- viewing 3D clips with the simplest and quick and easiest way first.

1. I prefer to connect the TD10 directly to the 3D monitor using the hdmi connection.

After that it gets complicated-
2. To review in 3D on my computer I use the PMB software to export the clips to the computer, then I can play those clips using stereoscopic player.
Or, most often I go to straight editing and edit the clips in Vegas Pro v 10e. Render and then burn a BD-RE for review. Now with stereoscopic player I can also view the 3D without burning the BD-RE. Either works OK. Playing in Vegas Pro 10e is not full frame rate so that method is unsatisfactory. Maybe Vegas Pro V11 will work as it is promised. Soon to be released.

3. My latest method is to render to SBS full and play on my Popcorn Hour A-210 in my home theater. No need to burn a disk as it streams the full resolution 3D to the big screen is excellent quality. Only negative I see here is the SBS full needs to be in manual 3D mode on the monitor as the system does not auto switch to 3D.

I've tried many other ways but these seem to be the best and easiest depending on whether you are editing to BD or just watching clips.

nosys70 Since you have the Professional NX3D1, why don't you start a discussion thread for that camcorder. I'd be very interested in a thread like that to discuss the experiences of those using it. Not to read camcorder wars, however. I'm one who appreciates the right tool for the job.

One thing I would say Don is that the situation is entirely my fault. I should have checked the Blu-ray 3D specs and not assume 50i was supported. Of course it might be the case in practice that 50i is supported on most players. The original blu-ray spec did not permit 1440x1080i50 with mpeg2 (HDV) but I have yet to find a player that does not support it. Of course Blu-ray may add 50i to the spec and all will be solved.

Are you sure it was a sony engineer you spoke to as most companies don't normally let real engineers loose at a sales show.

So I'm on the lookout for a replacement to the TD10.

@nosys70.

Do I take it that the handle on the NX3D is removable. This could be very usefull to me.

@tony3dd

Most 3D editors use Nvidias page flip mode with opengl which is only supported on Quadro video cards. Nvidia 3D player and steroscopic player will work with gforce cards as well. Some people use SDI output and a SDI to hdmi converter but this is very expensive. Best to check with Sony which graphic cards are supported for 3d monitoring. From the Sony publicity on the Vegas Pro 11 it looks as though the quadro is required.

trevor- The discussion was with a Japanese gentleman who was called over by the sales/marketing guy ( American)when the questions got too technical for him. My only real trouble was I had to get him to repeat many of the answers due to the language barrier. But he really seemed to understand my questions. There was nothing specific, like chip numbers but just generalities such as "many differences inside to support lanc timecode, 24P 3D which was where the topic of my two questions.

The handle and the lens shade are removable. The handle nor the lens shade can be remounted on the TD10 as I tried it. The case of the NX3D1 is slightly different and has a mounting socket for both that the TD10 does not have. A physically modified NX handle can plug into the TD10 hot shoe and get XLR 2 ch audio with volume controls and pro mic according to the engineer, who thought the suggestion humorous. They don't sell the handle separately according to him but I believe it can be ordered through Sony parts as you can get almost everything from them. Just don't hold me to a good price or ETA for delivery. Based on their other parts costs, my guess would be that handle with mic would be over $1000 from parts.

edit- One thing I did think interesting was that Sony showed the TD10 at NAB. It was the only consumer product there as traditionally, NAB is only professional and broadcast equipment. CES is only Consumer. I never asked why they were showing a consumer product along side the NX linup.

The latest Power DVD plays TD10 files out of the box, directly and via PMB...

Thanks Prema I'll check it out!

Trevor , it's pretty wild .. it recognizes the geforce 3d card , but gives me the warning I'm in non stereo display mode, ... no driver for the cheap cards.

Don, Planar is a Nvidea ready monitor ..... I'm pretty happy with it so far, except no remote.

Just tried Powerdvd and it plays 3D blu-ray fine but not mvc file from TD10. It is very odd as the monitor does go into 3D mode but seens to display the left eye for the right eye too.

Here is the Link to shot I feel it has differences between the eyes, can somebody help me check it? I can't instal PMB because I'm not running SP3. I hate Windows!!!.

Thanks guys.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43616434/20110724173612.m2ts

Matias Mesa

PowerDVD Ultra version 11.0.2024.53 here.
Just drag and drop mts or m2t 3D (3D display device set to Nvidia 3D vision).

Then i just hit the 3D button and it plays perfectly.

I get a 404 error - can you check the URL?

Stereoscopic Player will play MTS 3D files generated by the TD10.
There's a trial download here: www.3dtv.at

It was uploading, please try again. Thanks

Matias

Don, what codec and what settings do you use for rendering 3840x1080 full SBS in Vegas 10e? I can't find them.

Well, I can finally see my td10 footage in 3d with steroscopic player, but I've been running around in circles trying to output a video that will play in full screen like the native td10 video.

I've output in a number of the 1920 1080 formats including blu ray and they only occupy half the screen when I go into full screen mode.

Am I just missing something? It's really making me crazy!

I'd be happy to render something with specific settings for upload if you guys could help me out.

thanks,
tony

p.s. is msv6001 Qs relevant to this ...

In stereoscopic player you can full screen on scaled and unscaled. One will put your 3d video in full screen.

yes, I know it's supposed to do that it does for native td10 files. On some of my encodings, it just crashes when I full screen.

I render in vegas to blu ray iso and mount the iso. Using stereoscopic player i just play the ssif file. 720p plays full screen as wel as other 1080p 3dz

thanks, I haven't tried that one ... yet

I was just getting back to say I have succesfully played the blu ray .avc video.
but the .m2ts version crashes in full

I downloaded the footage and viewed it in Stereoscopic Player.
I cannot detect any missync.
I've paused the video on several sections where there is fast vertical ball or arm movement and I cannot see any vertical misalignment, which is what would be caused by missync.
Going back to my original suggestion and based on your explanations, it is probably a problem in the software or workflow that your post production facility is using to process the footage. They need to debug their workflow, or perhaps do the transcoding yourself. There are several workflows on the Windows platform which work perfectly. There might be proven workflows on the Mac platform but I am not aware of them.

I was using my TD10 for a 3D shoot last night when it suddenly locked up...
I was in the process of recording when the first thing I noticed was that the zoom lever wouldn't do anything, and then noticed that the record button wouldn't stop recording either. Full motion video was still showing on the display, and the red "REC" label was on screen, but I couldn't control anything.
I had to remove the battery to regain control (I didn't have a paperclip on me to be able to press the RESET button).
I haven't ascertained yet whether the clip I was recording at the time is still on the HDD, but in a quick look, I suspect not.
Obviously a bit of a worry... Has anyone else encountered this?

Have not seen that with my TD10 at all. Is that something, that happened just one time, or do you see that again and again with your TD10?

Just once. Fingers crossed it's the only time.

This happened to me once, a couple of days after getting the td10, it hasn't reoccurred, but I haven't shot very much.

I had a similar problem during playback when everything froze. I was sure I had lost all my data but went to the manual and found instructions saying to disconnect the power supply which I did and all was good. By the way, what and where is the paper clip activated reset button? I wonder if I should have tried that first? Anyone used the reset button and are there any limitations or risks in using it?

Open the lcd screen and it's to the left of the power button as you look at it.