Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 39

I am new on this board but I have one for sale on eBay if anyone is looking. I am not sure if I can post about this stuff so delete it if not policy. I did not see anything in the FAQ. Lowest price you will find for $950.

Thanks

This is odd. I just started reading this thread this week and everyone went on vacation. Hello???

Anyway, where is the best place to get one of these new right now? Also, does anyone here have experience with the TD10 and the new Optoma HD33/HD3300 3D projector. I have one and am thinking of getting the TD10 (now shhh, don't tell my wife...).

Edit: Found one just over a grand with another battery and case included. Now we wait for the Santa UPS man.

threed123- That's about the right price these days. I paid a grand for my second one in September. Then they threw in a bunch of extras for free too. I got two batteries and a aftermarket charger as a bonus. You did good, Enjoy!

I have a very simple question that reading through threads here doesn't seem to bother anyone but me, so maybe I'm missing something...

If you want to render 3D SBS, even if you select Full, the 2 side by side images are in a 1920x1080 frame. That cuts the resolution in half, and you can't change the resolution to 3840x1080 with most of the codecs, nor can you render top/bottom at 1920x2160. So how do you do side by side (or top/bottom) at the original resolution per frame? It works to use line alternate 3D encoding (and it plays in Stereoscopic Player), but if you want to put it on Youtube 3d or something, it has to be SBS. Thanks.

You haven't read through all the threads as we have had a lengthy discussion about this recently in order to create a work flow to export 3D video for import to Power Director 10. Hint: Use AVC Main Concept codec and set the pixels to custom and then enter your numbers. Also in Project set the render output to SBS or TB Full depending on what you want to do. Warning- While this codec seems to be the only one that permits oversize pixel settings, render results appears to be rather buggy, even in the latest release. I have found only TB Full to work with perfect render quality. Wolfgang using Pal claims to have success with SBS Full.

Don is right - if you are taling about the export from Vegas, then you can use the MC-AVC enoder to do so (if you are talking about the export from PD10, there are more possiblities).

There could be differences in the export, maybe depending if you start from between PAL MVC 1080 50i footage, and NTSC MVC 1080 60i footage. Even if it is still not clear to me if that are really the differences. I test some footage from Don at the moment.

But fact is: you can use the MC-AVC encoder in Vegas, either top/bottom full or sbs full, to export MVC footage from Vegas. Maybe you have to test that on your machine, we can tell you our templates but you have to try.

Newbie question: Is this the software I need?

Sony Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 Production Suite

It's fairly cheap right now at $66.

Edit: Okay, I read a review that it doesn't allow creating 3D blu-ray disks, but I thought I read on this board that there is software to do this. Did I miss something?

Sure, you can use Vegas Moviestudio 11 HD Platinum - but be aware that it is a 32 bit Application, what has some clear limitations for 3D, especially if the project becomes longer. Due to that many users are not happy with VMS. The better choice - but more expensive - would be Vegas Pro 10e or Vegas Pro 11.

There has been a new update for VMS 11 some days ago. I recommend you to test the gratis trial before you purchase.

Thanks, my bigger problem is I have Windows 7 32 bit loaded on my PC, so I'm stuck either way. But I want to confirm the VMS will allow me to cut a full 1.4 compliant 3D blu-ray disk or not?

Unless you want lots of frustration and limitations, you really need to be running 64 bit OS for 3D editing. Others have done it but the process is painfully slow. I recall bravia3D stating he was waiting a week to do a render.

Here is what Microsoft says about your prospects:


In any event you should start with a hardware compatibility test first. But, if your system is old and small, chances even with windows 7 64bit the process will be frustrating.

My experience was that in SD video DV source, I could easily edit complex stuff on a dual core laptop wunning 32 bit win XP. When I wanted to edit HD video I had to go to a quad core 64 bit with about 8Gb of ram and Vista 64bit to edit satisfactorily. When I started editing in 3D, that quadcore was brought to it's knees. I had to upgrade to win7 64 bit on a new i7 with 8 cores and 12Gb ram. 3D editing with MVC file structure is the most intense processing work you can do on your computer. If it is weak, you will not like it.


BTW- the "1.4 compliant" referes to the 3DBD player and the hdmi connection ports. Not the editing software. VMS will, however, allow you to edit Sony Camcorder HDR TD10 clips on the timeline and burn the render to 3DBD-R so that a real 3D Blu Ray player will auto sense 3D and switch your monitor to 3D.

Ugh, I was afraid my computer would not be up to it. And now it looks like the company I ordered the TD10 from doesn't have them stock and might be changing the price on me...so the adventure limps along.

Thanks, Don and Wolfgang. It's people like you that make this all come together for the rest of us...

hi everyone,

Just have my TD10E (PAL)
Check PMB, CMU and Device explorer from vegas 11.
As I use vegas, I find that device explorer a very good method for transfer. Thanks Don.
I have check CMU for extract to L/R files, but have something strange in the properties of one of 3D video files : codec found is AVC and not MVC (so it cannit be splitted into 2 files). The LCD screen is very good.

You forsure want Windows 7 64bit. When I used 32 bit it was very slow and would often take days.

Thanks for the response Don, Wolfgang. I had tried the MC-AVC encoder and got what was perhaps similar results as Don...mine was choppy no matter what I tried. Then as a test I tried encoding a 3840x1080 clip in Premiere using their MC encoder and it played fine, so I figured it was just a bug with Vegas.

But I just ran a test again with Vegas, with the new 425 build of 11, and the MC was perfectly smooth with SBS 3840x1080! So that is good to go, I just wish MC supported 5.1 Dolby - I guess you could render the audio separately but it would be nice if you could do it in one shot. Is there any disadvantage to using Line Alternate for output? Doesn't seem as smooth as SBS to me...

Btw to the people with processing power woes with their system and limited resources, don't forget Vegas (and some other programs) can use the GPU in addition to the CPU for rendering, and it does make a difference. So adding a newer or second video card not only gets you a nicer video setup, but a rendering speed increase for not too much money, and you don't have to upgrade your whole computer.

Do you use Vegas Pro or VMS? For VMS there was a bug in the device explorer, clips longer then 20 minuts were not imported in a correct way. But there is an update for the VMS, where that is fine now.



Well, the MC encoder in Premiere is not the same as in Vegas. Different builds, different software dlls - so we should be carefull here.

Funny, I still have not been able to reproduce the choppy results that Don and now also you have seen. Regardless what I try.

So with which version (VMS or Vegas Pro, and which build) have you seen that choppy results?

Because:


Maybe that is the reason why I am not able to repro - because I use Pro 11 build 425/426.



Well, the render templates of the MC AVC encoder do not support 5.1. Yes, you have to render the audio part separately - but the major question is where you wish to use the footage. In another tool like the PD10? The question is also how to muxe the footage if you have an audio and a video stream.

Line alternate has the disadvantage that is halfs the resolution. Maybe it depends on the unit where you will view the results.


Yes, that is right, and especially for older PCs that could be an option. For a new strong CPU it can happen, that CUDA is weaker then the CPU - especially if the GPU has a low number of CUDA cores.

For my i7 2600K system I have ordered a nvidia GTX 570, and will test that beside my Quadro 2000D (what is nice for 3D but terrible weak for CUDA), but I have no idea yet how the Quadro behaves beside the GTX. Will see how it performs in Vegas Pro.

You need a monitor that supports Line alternate. Unless you are in a Broadcast station or pro facility, it is unlikely you are using this type of monitor for 3D. Likely your monitor supports frame packing like from a BluRay player connected by hdmi or SBS / TB half or full. when the source is not from a BluRay player. Could also be Checkerboard as there are a number of monitors out that support checkerboard.

If your computer is older and slower, your options may be limited by a motherboard that does not support faster video cards. I ran into this here with my older quad core Q9300. I HAD to go to a completely newer MB to even support a faster video card.


BTW- this is a bit off topic for the TD10 thread and we already have discussions ongoing in the appropriate threads here on these topics.

Yes, it looks like the new build works great!


For 3D viewing right now I mainly use Nvidia's 3DVision glasses and a 120 Hz monitor...eventually a DVI linked 120 Hz projector (when they finally get 1080p 120 Hz coming in through DVI and not HDMI).

Having your TD10 edited movies in full SBS with Dolby 5.1 makes for a quick render to any other format as your friends and family get 3D tv's etc. And thanks for you and Don pointing out the drop in resolution with Line Alternate. I read some more on it and I see that it is an older format.


Congrats on the new GTX 570...you should see an improvement. The 570 has 480 cores compared to the 192 of the Quadro, and most configurations have more memory too. I have 2 GTX 580's and they are great, a little noisy when they are working but not too bad. With the GPU/CPU issue, I also have a i7 system, with 16 cores (dual hyper-threaded quad core Xeons), and if the program is multithreaded properly (and Vegas Pro is) it can still use the GPU's to make things even faster. But as Don mentions, you do need multiple PCIe 2.0 16x slots on the motherboard.

Yes, I am aware of this issue - my board supports one 16x speed slot, if you put in a second card you grade it down to two times 8x speed only.

There is a third PCIe 2.0 slot, but that will work at 4x only - but maybe the best solution because then the first one stays at 16x. I have to make some tests to see how I can achieve the best performance. But that is another story, this ith the TD10 thread.

Anyone tested these with the Sony, yet?

http://www.cyclopital3d.com/Sony-Cam...cessories.html



Looks like they will block the front mics...there are two wholes at the bottom though...
Is there anything that can give us a wider angle with that Filter Mount?

I have the JVC version, and a Marumi +3 Achromat macro lens. It works very well. I don't know if a wide adapter would work well with the dual lenses. I suspect you might run into issues with part of the image being cut off. No such issues with macro photography on my JVC. I have access to the full zoom range. I haven't tried a wide angle adapter - though obviously that would be a great tool to be able to use.

Just got the camera in hand today. My first impressions after 15 minutes of shooting indoors: I have the Fuji W3, so I'm familiar with what it can do for video. Frankly, there is little comparison, the Sony video looks very professional with minimal judder--I was really surprised. I walked around the house while narrating and the movement was smooth and well balanced. I was also surprised by the low light capability. I had just the light from the windows to work with and still the rooms were well lit. The wide angle view is also nice--wider than I expected. And the auto-white balance--better than any other Sony or other video camera I've used.

After shooting I went to the basement and switched on my new Optoma HD3300 Full 3D projector, hooked up the hdmi to my receiver that also hooks to the projector and watched playback on my 142" screen! Wow! Images matched what I've seen in 3D TV and movies. This camera is definitely a keeper. The only downside--and I"ve got to get used to this--was the walking around movement made me instantly sea-sick. I must learn not to walk the camera forward while recording. Side to side movement is okay, but wow, forward movement put me into a tailspin. Also, recording outside in bright sun really crushes the whites--way too much contrast. I'll have to watch out for that as well as others have mentioned.

I must say, it's smaller and lighter than I imagined. Others have said it's like holding a brick, but I found it's not that big and bulky. The lens is closer together than the Fuji W3, so the 3D is not as pronounced. It's as if you are standing further back than you are. It reduces some of the roundness of objects, but unless you are looking for it, the average person wouldn't notice. And the sound, another wow for a camcorder this size. My voice through my receiver sound system sounded professional--not tinny like I expected.

Oh, the fun begins right now

I may have missed reference to a software 3D depth adjustment in either PD10 or Vegas Pro 10e. Where in each of these programs would one be able to do this?

Right now when playing the raw footage from the TD10 to my Sony Bravia XBR52LX900 via HDMI I always have to adjust the 3D depth to +2.

An adjustment of the depth can be done with both Vegas and the PD10. While the PD10 does not have other 3D controls, the Vegas plugin offeres a lot of more adjustments.

Pardon my ignorance but can you step me through how I go about making a 3D adjustment of +2 to my TD10 video in PD10.

Thanks in advance!

If you are shooting with a properly calibrated TD10 and properly importing those clips to Vegas there should be no need to make any deviation to the placement of the video 3D calibrations. The adjustments in the 3D Stereographic effect is for use with a twin 2D camera system that uses the two files in a 3D pairing configuration. There is also a horizontal disparity adjustment that is for use on overlays to position the overlay in Z axis space. For example- say you have a 3D video clip and wish to place a text graphic overlay. You create then text graphic and since this is a simple 2D clip, it will land at the screen plane on the Z axis. Using the 3D Stereographic effect and its horizontal adjustment, you can move the Text position in front of the screen by going negative on the slider or back into the background by going positive on the slider. You want to set the horizontal Z axis location so that you don't have any depth collisions with any 3D object that is in the background video.

Normally the monitor has a 3D adjustment that is set yo favor the owner's depth perception. Pulling it positive on the monitors I've seen spread the 3D more causing a greater 3D effect. This also will increase the likelihood that video with extreme 3D effects will tire you more frequently because your eyes will need to work harder. Putting this setting negative will squeeze the 3D spread flatter more toward the 2D and will be easier on the eyes. When I first got my 3D projector I had it set for greater spread too and when the novelty wore off and I preferred longer viewing times with less fatigue, I put the adjustment back to default of 0.

Finally, repeating many posts, the Sony HDR TD10 3D adjustment simply places your screen along the Z axis. Some may prefer the action in front of the screen more while others prefer this to be behind the screen. If you have a shot where something is popping out too far in front it may not converge so you may wish to push it back a bit. In other cases you may be shooting a distant shot zoomed in and everything is way behind the screen plane so you use this control to bring some of it closer.

Basically, if you don't know what you are doing, it's best to leave these things in auto or default. If you do understand what these controls adjust, you can tweak the video for some outstanding custom look. Most of my public shooting I don't have the time to be tweaking every little manual adjustment so I do mostly auto and let the camera technology do what I paid for. If you shoot documentary or news gathering style you won't have the time to play with all the manual calibrations or the shot will be gone. But if you shoot film style, do a massive setup for a few seconds of video, you will get better image quality because you have the time for great control over what is shot.

Don:

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

I did leave everything I shot while trying the TD10 on auto mode. As mentioned, to get best results and avoid ghosting on my Sony XBR 52LX900 the setting +2 for 3D depth adjust seemed best to view all video shot with the TD10 whether attached directly to my 3DTV or when I burnt a 3D Bluray via PD10 and played it on my PS3.

All I wanted to see was if there was a simple 3D adjustment in PD10 that I could use when creating a 3D Bluray to play on my PS3 so that I don't have to keep doing a 3D depth adjustment on my Sony 3DTV

If ghosting is a problem you might have the TD10 not properly calibrated. Run the calibration test again carefully following the instructions in your manual. Make sure you have plenty of room and light. Then set the 3D adjust control to auto and gain your 3D shooting experience with auto first. Second, be careful to avoid the shots that have too much spread in 3D depth with extreme close up objects and far distant background which will cause ghosts in the close up objects especially if they are closer than 4 feet from the camera.

I did actually run calibration several times.

I took several videos after each calibration all with similar results. Honestly, there is very little ghosting of mid to far objects and it's just the close-in ones that are very apparent.

So unfortunately I'm left with video I can't retake since I've come back from our trip to Europe

I've never used Vegas' built-in tools to adjust the position of the left/right frames. I use Cineform FirstLight (part of their Neo software) with my 3D clips. It gives you the ability to move left/right, up/down and rotate the images to make sure they create a pleasant viewing experience (and to correct edge violations). There's a very helpful "Auto Zoom" function in FirstLight. Checking it means that FirstLight notes the adjustments that you've made and automatically zooms the image in to fill the frame and keep the stereo pairs aligned properly. Don't despair that you won't be able to adjust your European 3D videos. You may lose a little resolution, but if it means the video is easier to watch, it's well worth it. Others may be able to guide you through the process directly in Vegas, but I haven't done it yet.

Thanks Joseph. I think I'll just live with doing the 3D adjustment on my 3DTV