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Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 45

post #1321 of 1567
Sound recording problems with the TD10-

This is a special problem that will affect only those who choose to monitor voice recordings with the earphone jack on the camera.

There is about a half second delay of the sound which can make monitoring very difficult to impossible. Today I tried to use the TD10 to record my own readings for voice over work for a project and it nearly drove me nuts! Finally I gave up and got out my older HDR SR12 a hard drive HD camcorder that I haven't used since buying the TD10. It has no delay at all. I had a nice DAT recorder for this purpose but sold it a long time ago. The only problem with all these consumer camcorders is that have an AGC that is always on. I bet the Z10k or the pro version of the TD10 has no AGC with their pro audio inputs but how about the delay on the monitor?
post #1322 of 1567
I was surprised at how good the TD10, set to "low level" recording fed with a Sony ECM55 (sent to both channels) was.

I had to use the TD10 for an interview, and I can percieve almost no agc effects at all - normally I use my EX1 or Tascam DR100, but I agree, the delay for monitoring is absolutely ridiculous!

Paul :-)
post #1323 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Don has posted, appropriately, a video he made using the TD10 in the Youtube Home Video thread. Those of you interested in the TD10 should view it to see how the camera performs run n' gun:

http://youtu.be/9ZiBZSUrPQE?hd=1

...


5. The 3D was nice, but, and this is a big but: the many close-up flower shots of course had pop-out but almost all had severe window violations - the objects in front of the frame were almost always cut off at the bottom of the window. The only one that worked well - no wv - was the oval with shoe-pair centered and in front of the frame, since there is no stem support in view that is cut off. But in one shot, the camera moves towards the shoe/oval and slightly cuts off the bottom of the oval that is in front of the window (2:54), so another wv. Looking at flowers in front of the window with their stems cut off by the window frame results in headaches - it violates the physics the eye is used to. Many shots like this. The penultimate close-up of the framed picture (not the last one, which is very nice) also has severe wv.

I did not get a headache, and I enjoyed the video - the color overall and the third dimension were impressive. A fun tour.

A pleasing video, of inherently delightful scenes, enhanced by Don Landis's experienced shooting and editing. To think this quality of 3D video can be achieved with a consumer camcorder, is amazing.

As a member of the "YouTube audience', I found the tempo restful and soothing. (And well suited to 24fps.) [I downloaded the file first, so as to be able to watch it smoothly, in its entirety.]

In my opinion the TD10 has a pleasing default 3D "volume". The interaxial lens separation although somewhat less than average human adult interocular distance seems, subjectively, to work very well. (It's a much more natural effect than what I have obtained with my Fujifilm FinePix REAL 3D W3 camera, which so often exaggerates the 3D effect.)

In the quote above, I have left in markr041's comments about window violations as to me this was the only aspect of the video that caused me any real concern. (The overexposure from time time didn't particularly worry me.)

Watching a 50" plasma TV, I found a fleeting closeup view of flowers ok for my vision. However when the camera lingered on a close up view of the flowers and at the same time showed much more distant flowers without anything to draw my attention to the middle of the scene; my brain became aware of something "not quite right" at the left and right edges, and my vision felt a little uncomfortable.

I would think that to release this type of video for general exhibition some sort of processing would be desirable to reduce the strength of the 3D for some of the closeups of the flowers, or at least to reduce the wv.

As Don has indicated, the existing level of wv could be less noticeable if viewing a large projection screen.

A very enjoyable video to watch!
post #1324 of 1567
Yes, the workload increases significantly if you work with the sbs-rig - that starts with the import and pairing of the single files (where I see that it seems to be necessary to pair every clip manually in a single way). And even with the automatic you still have to adjust convergence.

But to come back to shoot with one TD10: I have seen some ghosting here, both with the Z10K but also with the TD10. The good old rule that this comes from high disparity and high contrast - well that is something that I see here too. And I have seen a lot of footage from different people during the last 3Dimensionale in Vienna - Ghosting took place for the cases only wher you had the combination of high disparty and high contrast. So I come up more and more to the conclusion that to shoot wit parallel axis offers you more flexiblity in the postproduction, and help to avoid ghosting. That does not touch the feeling of shooting, since the only adjustment that I think about is to adjust the concergence to +oo before I start to shoot.

For the luminance issue - maybe we have to take more care about that. Since the TD10 misses the beloved zebra functionality, the bring down the lunimance could be one of the major adjustments one has to do when working with the TD10.
post #1325 of 1567
WV- I think it is near impossible to free every scene of window violations unless you restrict your shooting to a simple floating object in the center of a flat single colored wall. Or, you push every thing in the shot behind the screen plane that touches the screen's edges. If I shot that way, I think I would only achieve .001% of the shot picks for my edit, maybe less! So, as I stated before, as long as the video isn't jarring and I get general over all comments that the video is pleasing to watch, I'll accept WV here and there when I need to present a closeup.

Exposure- If I may let me comment on the wallaby posted by MLXX. I gather that this is a rare experience to capture these animals in the wild so I generally forgive most imperfections in technical photography in the interest of the fact he got the shot.
But the shot itself, if he had reduced the exposure to pop all the detail in the wallaby's white fur, he may have pushed the background so dark that the detail of where this animal was would be lost, i.e. a wallaby against a slightly textured black background as underexposed.
I ran into this many times in shooting advertising and the general rule was, go for the subject and allow the background to blow out. If time permitted, shoot the background again with same camera position properly exposed and then do an additive blend in post to combine the two shots with a dynamic matte. This can produce a perfectly exposed shot and in advertising we generally have the budget for such time consuming corrections unless deadlines overrule. If the shot was done in efp or staged, we would have time to setup lights and blast the subject with enough light to match the luminance a color temperature. But all this stuff is professional video, not what most of us are doing today.

In the TD10, you can set the camera to do a spot exposure and focus by touching the screen. This setting will hold if you do it in 2D mode and then switch to 3D.
post #1326 of 1567
I'm generally OK with edge violations. They usually don't bother me, unless they call attention to themselves dramatically. That's sacrilegious to some, but it's a growing sentiment.

James Cameron puts it this way: "There is no screen." By that, I think he means that 3D space in a movie should not be constrained in almost any way by the edges of the frame. It should be experienced as we experience things in real life. He also suggests being as close to the display as you can get, in which case the edges of the frame begin to get lost in your peripheral vision. In an interview/Q&A about 3D, he says that 3D pundits are wrong when they say that edge violations (window violations) should never be allowed. He suggests that creative freedom in 3D movie making is not possible without them (I tend to agree), and that the only exception is when an object flies out of the frame into the room. He encourages breaking this "3D rule" as frequently as possible. Edge violations are everywhere in Avatar, and in Scorsese's Hugo.

For the last few months, I've avoided them by setting my JVC TD1 manually. This works well much of the time, but there are instances when it hurts the shot. By default, the JVC "floats" the convergence point (what appears at the screen plane), setting it differently as the subject matter changes in a pan or tilt. Overall, I think this yields good results, and it usually involves fewer instances of ghosting than setting convergence manually. Some of the shots that elicit the most powerful positive responses from viewers of my 3D are ones in which there are multiple edge violations. The average person doesn't know and, I suspect, wouldn't care if they did.

I'm very careful to avoid edge violations in macro photography (closeups of flowers, insects, etc.), but in wide shots and most medium shots, it's not something that will make me lose any sleep. I'm not set hard and fast in this position, but that's the way I'm leaning right now.
post #1327 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

By default, the JVC "floats" the convergence point (what appears at the screen plane), setting it differently as the subject matter changes in a pan or tilt. Overall, I think this yields good results, and it usually involves fewer instances of ghosting than setting convergence manually.

I learned early that I could trust the TD1's auto convergence which is good because it's viewfinder, in 3D mode, is difficult to see outdoors.

I don't mind edge violations either. It's OK for objects to appear in negative space (front of the screen) as long as they are still close to the screen.

The goal is to avoid reminding the viewer that they are watching a 3D 'movie'. They should be totally absorbed by the story, event, etc. Any technique that achieves this is good.
post #1328 of 1567
A friend of mine just picked up that $500 Sony TD10 at Best Buy. He's going to use it in his high school media program. He couldn't pass up that price. He just added a couple of 55" LG passive LCD displays recently. I took a few minutes of some of my footage over the other day, and you could feel the level of excitement that the experience of watching 3D created with those who viewed it. You could almost see the wheels of possibility turning. When the school year ends, I'll finally get a chance to try the TD10 first hand, since he'll loan it to me this summer. And I may be back here if he has questions I can't answer about its operation.
post #1329 of 1567
Audio:

1. The Z10000 has zero latency (tested) from the headphone port (no audio lag) and has complete manual control over audio (and agc if you want it) as well as a no compression option (PCM) along with Dolby 2 and 5.1.

2. I have found the low microphone setting of the TD10, which still has AGC, to yield very good audio, with little pumping. In contrast, the Panasonic 3D1, which has good mics, pumps up all sounds to maximum levels.

WV:

1. Let's be clear - it is not a wv to have negative parallax - an object in front of the window. The wv occurs if that object is cut off by the frame, violating physics (seems to be in front and not in front). Popouts can have no wv.

2. Yes, some wv's are innocuous, but some are distracting. In Hugo and Avatar, there are mv's but they are brief, usually occurring for a moment with the camera moving. You can even have a person walk across the screen in front of the window and cut off, and it is not bothersome, because it is brief. When the main, centered large subject is in front of the screen for the whole shot and is cut off, that is not ignorable and can make some sick. I do not think there is anything like that in Avatar or Hugo (please!).

"James Cameron puts it this way: "There is no screen." By that, I think he means that 3D space in a movie should not be constrained in almost any way by the edges of the frame. It should be experienced as we experience things in real life."
That is not giving license to wv's - the opposite: A windows violation destroys the illusion because it violates real life - it is simply impossible to have something in front of a window and also cut off by the window frame; it calls attention to the frame as well as discombobulates the brain.

3. Some people are more sensitive than others to mv's. If your viewer does not know what they are, he or she can still get a headache, because it directly affects the brain. And, yes, people constantly harping about wv's can be annoying - the wv police!

4. The Panasonic 3D1 has a wv indicator that works really well. It detects wv's occurring at the edge (or center) of the frame and gives a warning. I sometimes say to myself - warning, you are wrong - only to find when I review the shot there is a troubling wv I did not catch. For maximum pop-out with no wv, you can move back until the symbol disappears.
post #1330 of 1567
I don't mean to put words into James Cameron's mouth. The "real life" comment was my interpretation, not a direct Cameron quote. As for giving license to edge violations, I don't think there's any doubt that Cameron is OK with them in his own 3D film-making. I'm trying to find the clip, if anyone's interested.

That said, I think it's clear from both Avatar and Hugo that the "violations" these film-makers find acceptable are those things happening primarily in the periphery. I think just about everyone is in agreement that chopping up your main subject with a frame edge is not good 3D.
post #1331 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I don't mean to put words into James Cameron's mouth. The "real life" comment was my interpretation, not a direct Cameron quote. As for giving license to edge violations, I don't think there's any doubt that Cameron is OK with them in his own 3D film-making. I'm trying to find the clip, if anyone's interested.

That said, I think it's clear from both Avatar and Hugo that the "violations" these film-makers find acceptable are those things happening primarily in the periphery. I think just about everyone is in agreement that chopping up your main subject with a frame edge is not good 3D.

In Cameron's 3D version of Titanic there is a scene during the sequence when the ship is sinking that the camera looks directly over the railing and downward. The railing is blurred and in your face as the camera pans down. Is this what you are talking about?
post #1332 of 1567
Joe- I guess this is one area that James Cameron and I agree about WV. Frankly, anyone who professes that rule be never broken, likely does not shoot and if they do breaks their own rule.

I also agree that in 3D there is no screen surface. BUT, there is always a screen edge and this is where the w.v. gets pinched back to the screen frame plane.

I think in my Gardens video, my intentional shots of the bed of flowers that fills the screen width is what would be the most egregious WV violation according to the 3D rules of Mark. But I wanted it that way and held it on the screen to emphasize the look of what I did see. The look I get on my large screen is that my room is filled with a bed of flowers from just in front of me all the way through and well beyond the screen. Maybe its just my vision but I don't have brain flips and neither does my wife over it. Yes, it also does violate the rule that the camera should be invisible to the story, but inn the Gardens video the point is to display extremes of 3D. I don't always do that. On a smaller screen, the same effect in that I see the bed of flowers spilling out of a bezel frame of the Vizio. Being only 32" screen it does not fill the room but is like water pouring out of a rectangular opening from the volume behind the Vizio.

AGC in the TD10- yesterday I measured the AGC recovery time and it was the same for both normal and low volume setting for the TD10. It takes about 4-5- seconds to come to full gain and full quieting attack takes about a tenth of a second. To kill the pumping action I just spoke a single word ahead of my sentence with each take. I'm using an RE20 traditional studio mic with a sure M367 preamp feeding a balun into the camcorder's ministereo jack. Mark- thanks for the report on latency of the Panasonic Z10k. That camera is looking really good on my wish list but I'm still throwing money at my editing computer to afford one now. Maybe next year...
post #1333 of 1567
Whatever we do - we should be aware that we are able to put significant stress on the eyes of the people who view our products.

Good 3D productions will minimize the 3D stress and - also important - they work with parallel axis during shooting. If you find the time, have a look to the Die Drei Musketiere
http://www.amazon.de/Die-drei-Musket...6722803&sr=8-1

then you see wonderfull and really great 3D. The parallaxis is always very very small, but the depth brackets are wonderfull - and no ghosting at all takes place. The movie has been generated by some of the team members of Avatar. I am not sure if it has now been published in the States yet, since it was produced in Europe. But it is the best 3D production that I have seen in the last time, in terms of 3D.

From that side I tend to trust he convergence automatism of both the TD-10 an the Z10K not really - and tend to use parallel axis and adjust the convergence in the postproduction. What I understand more and more that this is best practice.
post #1334 of 1567
New Topic: Correcting the slightly washed out low saturation of the TD10 in Vegas Pro

Here are two images, shot in 3D mode full IA auto. (Left only)
The first one is camera original while the second has a subtle color correction added.



post #1335 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Whatever we do - we should be aware that we are able to put significant stress on the eyes of the people who view our products.

Good 3D productions will minimize the 3D stress and - also important - they work with parallel axis during shooting. If you find the time, have a look to the Die Drei Musketiere
http://www.amazon.de/Die-drei-Musket...6722803&sr=8-1

then you see wonderfull and really great 3D. The parallaxis is always very very small, but the depth brackets are wonderfull - and no ghosting at all takes place. The movie has been generated by some of the team members of Avatar. I am not sure if it has now been published in the States yet, since it was produced in Europe. But it is the best 3D production that I have seen in the last time, in terms of 3D.

From that side I tend to trust he convergence automatism of both the TD-10 an the Z10K not really - and tend to use parallel axis and adjust the convergence in the postproduction. What I understand more and more that this is best practice.

It's been out here since at least February. I have this in my collection. It's OK but not best of breed, IMO.
post #1336 of 1567
And what is best of breed, to your opinion?
post #1337 of 1567
debatable opinion for another forum. ( has nothing to do with the TD10 anyway)
post #1338 of 1567
I took one of my TD10s outside and shot this quick video of some bears playing in my yard. My other TD10 is currently in Utah somewhere being used by my daughter and son in law.
3D video of bears at play
post #1339 of 1567
I finally getting around to editing my HDR-TD10 footage.

I am considering an "all in one" desktop to do the editing, due to space restraints and the fact that I may need to be portable.

Can one of the experts here recommend a good all in one computer with the best hardware to get the editing done quickly and effectively. I been looking at some of the HP and Lenovo all in ones. I am not sure if a "touch" screen is necessary or useful? I am only planning on editing clips and sending them out to clients for PR, etc.

Thanks in advance.

W.
post #1340 of 1567
I have a 21.5" Sony all-in-one i3. It's decent, but lacking speed for editing. If you can afford it, go for an i7 whichever brand. I never use the touchscreen, but my kids use it to draw fun stuff.
post #1341 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Correcting the slightly washed out low saturation of the TD10 in Vegas Pro

Here are two images, shot in 3D mode full IA auto. (Left only)
The first one is camera original while the second has a subtle color correction added.

Color correction looks good. What settings in Vegas did you use to correct it?
post #1342 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

you can set the camera to do a spot exposure and focus by touching the screen. This setting will hold if you do it in 2D mode and then switch to 3D.

I tried that, but this setting remain manual. So i can set manual exposure in 3D mode also and down the dial a little. Why is this method better?
I need a spot mode with auto exposure. Can't be? This was the "trick" from what i read here in the past and somebody sayed this is good, and hope that it will not change with the next firmware? Or is there other tricks?
post #1343 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post

Color correction looks good. What settings in Vegas did you use to correct it?

I used the regular color correction effect and applied it to the timeline. A primary concern was the glass globe fish bowl. Live it looked quite clear and had the sparkle. The TD10 tends to make glass like this look frosted, dirty, and dull. As you can see, some very subtle correction can pop the sparkle and clarity back into the glass.
post #1344 of 1567
Quote:


Why is this method better?

I wouldn't say it's better, just an alternative. Both are manual, one you select which part of the image you want to allow the camera to properly set the exposure to and the other you would dial in that same region. The spot exposure is kind of a hybrid between the auto and complete manual with the knob. In the menu you can also select whether the spot applies to exposure, focus, or both. Personally, I still prefer the manual dial. I start with IA in a shoot and if I don't like what I'm getting I use the knob and switch to manual for the exposure dial in.
post #1345 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post

I have a 21.5" Sony all-in-one i3. It's decent, but lacking speed for editing. If you can afford it, go for an i7 whichever brand. I never use the touchscreen, but my kids use it to draw fun stuff.

Thanks. Sounds like the i7 and a top of the line video card is the way to go.

W.
post #1346 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I wouldn't say it's better, just an alternative.

But you really use this way?
I mean it's far quicker hit the knob, set the exposure, that switch the cam to 2D mode, set the spot exposure, and go back to 3D mode.
post #1347 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxman View Post

But you really use this way?
I mean it's far quicker hit the knob, set the exposure, that switch the cam to 2D mode, set the spot exposure, and go back to 3D mode.

Did you read the last two sentences in my post? Joe Clark, here has been the only one I recall who prefers the spot adjustments on his JVC.
post #1348 of 1567
The clips I link to in this post were all shot with the area select feature on my JVC. If a comparable adjustment is possible with the TD10, I recommend Sony users check it out, even if it adds some time to shot setup. (I realize this won't always be possible, but it is for the kind of shooting I do.) Since I started using it on my JVC, I've been much happier with the results.

The JVC has full manual control of aperture and shutter speed in 3D, but no zebra function. While it's certainly not foolproof, "area select" for exposure and focus in 3D mode has yielded some outstanding results. There's no way I can achieve anything close to this in full auto mode, and using area select typically adds only 3 or 4 seconds to the shot. Even if it takes longer on the Sony, I suspect it would be worth it.

These are raw JVC TD1 clips, shot using area select (touch the screen to set the spot for exposure and focus):

The Bulb Garden in Spring.

More from the Bulb Garden.

The Dwarf Conifer Garden.

The Carver Garden.

More Carver Garden.

These clips may need convergence correction, but I doubt I'll have to adjust exposure or color at all. I rely on the area select feature constantly.
post #1349 of 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

...
Exposure- If I may let me comment on the wallaby posted by MLXX. ...

But the shot itself, if he had reduced the exposure to pop all the detail in the wallaby's white fur, he may have pushed the background so dark that the detail of where this animal was would be lost, i.e. a wallaby against a slightly textured black background as underexposed.

I ran into this many times in shooting advertising and the general rule was, go for the subject and allow the background to blow out. If time permitted, shoot the background again with same camera position properly exposed and then do an additive blend in post to combine the two shots with a dynamic matte. ...

In the TD10, you can set the camera to do a spot exposure and focus by touching the screen. This setting will hold if you do it in 2D mode and then switch to 3D.

Thanks Don, yes that general rule about shooting for the subject makes a lot of sense.
_____

Re exposure adjustments while shooting, I'm finding it convenient in 3D mode to set the adjustment knob at the front of the camera for manual exposure at the beginning of the shoot. I then press the button in the centre of the knob to toggle to auto. Manual exposure is then just a button push away.

(If there's to be a firmware update for this camera, I'd be opting for AE shift to be available in 3D mode.)
post #1350 of 1567
Quote:


Re exposure adjustments while shooting, I'm finding it convenient in 3D mode to set the adjustment knob at the front of the camera for manual exposure at the beginning of the shoot. I then press the button in the centre of the knob to toggle to auto. Manual exposure is then just a button push away.

Yes! My SOP as well. But, if in a hurry I still trust the IA to give me a great compromise in the interest of gaining more quantity with acceptable quality.
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