Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 30

"Limited to 1080p24 and 720p50 at 10mb/s is rediculous (sic)"

Here you go again. What you concluded is incorrect. You can output a bluray iso, 108024p or 720p50, at up to 26Mbps, if you know how to use the program. These two specific specs (ignoring the bitrate) were the only official bluray 3D specs up until very recently. That is not the fault of thee software program.

Opps sorry I got it from the manual!. 26mb/s is much better. You have explained why the Mainconcept Beta is so limited. How are they going to be able to charge $4150 with Vegas being so much cheaper. I hope they will include 1080i50 soon, deinterlacing and changing frame rate is not good. I have always found deinterlacing to be a pain. I will try converting some of my clips to 1080p24 to see how good it is.

Until very recently? Please point me to the update. If it has something to do with 1080i60 3D then that would seem to be on topic for the Sony TD10 here. Thanks.

I've now just created my first proper 3d bluray from the footage recorded on my TD10 whilst on holiday last week, a good 2 hours of stuff and mostly is very impressive. I do have a question about something though -

I have the TD10 in 3d mode with iauto enabled so effectively point and shoot, i've noticed on some of the clips I do get a kind of blurring, like a minor ghosting of whats there already. Although there is movement in the footage its not what i'd call quick (just kids running around etc). Ive only appeared to have this on a few bits of footage and some other clips with much quicker movement seem to be spot on with no issues.

Now i'm wondering if the problem is cam related or something to do with Sony Vegas (I created my disc @ 720p50), i've not yet had a look at the raw clip played back via the cam itself on the tv, thats my next thing to do as i'm suspecting they will show the same thing, although ive played back the clip in PMB in 2d and it appeared fine. I'll be looking at the original source clip later and seeing if the blurring is present.

If i'm correct and its on the source then i'm assuming its a problem with iauto changing scenes etc to what it thinks should be best. More testing me thinks!!!

Wow, PDVD 11 had me tricked, my wife too! Then again, the crispness wasn't there. Am I getting a true 3d from Nvidia's 1.7.2 player?!

Thanks again for the thread and will have to read the whole thing again and formulate my questions. I've got an 990x w3XGTX580's so should be able to crunch something. I need to make sure I get the right software.

I did upload several of my 1st vids to YouTube 3d via PMB. Is PMB splitting the vid file before uploading or is that more PDVD type magic?

Regards,
Dan

Ok, further to my question above, if it does turn out to be an issue from the TD10 side of things and not Vegas as I suspect, could it maybe be an issue with Steadyshot being active? I did think maybe it could be because Iauto was switching scenes but this has made me think a bit more now.

1. Viewing content from camera straight to 3D TV.

From TD10E (3D set to frame packing) via HDMI 4 to Samsung 64D8000 (on TV 3D starts immediately, info on TV shows 50i1080) - image is very sharp and detailed, but every horizontal panning (even slow) cause blurring or ghosting, especially on back plane. Therefore, it is very uncomfortable.
Is it usual, or it is problem with my camera or TV?

From TD10E (3D set to SBS) via HDMI 4 to Samsung 64D8000 (on TV 3D starts after 1 second showing SBS, info on TV shows 50i1080) - image is sharp and detailed, no blurring, no ghosting even with fast motion. The picture seems slightly less detailed, but very comfortable for viewing, very impressive. 3D effects for me looks better than from most commercial 3D BD. Who can tell me does Sony outputs full SBS or half SBS?

2. 3D BD created in Vegas 10E and played from 3D player LG660K to Samsung 64D8000 (on TV 3D starts immediately, info on TV shows 24p1080 or 50p720)

MVC 1920 24P - I am unable to view it, especially motion scenes.
MVC 1280 50P - it is viewable, but very far from SBS direct from camera to TV.

Also I have no idea how to make menus.

3. Rendering in Vegas 10E half SBS 1920*1080.50i (files can be played by almost any full HD player). I had used DUNE 3.0, and also players in Samsung TV and LG 3D blu ray player.

3.1. Sony MVC/AVC codec is limited to 21,9 Mbps and result is significantly better then Vegas 3D BD , but far from SBS direct from camera to TV.

3.2. Main concept AVC/AAC codec with bit rate starting from 30 Mbps result seems not worse than SBS direct from camera to TV.

3.3. Main concept MPEG-2 codec (main profile high level quality 31) with bit rate starting from 35 Mbps seems not worse than SBS direct from camera to TV.


What is the best with Main concept MPEG-2 coded files, they can be edited in Corel VS Pro X4 and DMF7 without re encoding. So you can make BD with 2D menus and 3D half SBS, but good quality (far better then Vegas MVC 1920 24P) content.
Of course, you can use half SBS files in DVDA pro 5.2, but they will be re encoded.

I have an Acer HN27H and when viewed direct from my TD10E the picture is good and panning is smooth but I am getting some screen tear.

When viewed through powerdvd11, it doesn't recognise it as a 3d file, so converts what it thinks is a 2d file to 3d and at 24fps - panning is horrible and picture quality is poor at only 17MB/s

It is interesting that you find the 3d output from the TD10 to your TV better with SBS as opposed to frame packed, obviously the lower resolution would be noticable but it should be better using frame packed, ive yet to try mine on SBS but will try tonight with the footage i'm finding problematic, although for me its only a few scenes with minor blurring/ghosting.

1080p24 3dbd created in Vegas I find not great with any kind of motion, thus I use 720p50 and its very smooth, on my Samsung 50C680 I hardly notice any difference in resolution.

You cant make menu's with 3dbd in Vegas.

I do find it rather odd that you would find SBS better than frame packed output, even creating a 3dbd at 720p I personally think is much better than a half resolution SBS file.

After reading this post I ordered the Sony and yesterday shot a few minutes. I was very impressed with the sharpness and 3D effect on my 82" DLP. The viewfinder in 3D was excellent. I had expected a larger camera but it is only slightly larger than my Canon HV20. Also I was surprised how steady I could hold and pan the camera. Next week will be using it a lot on our 7 day cruise to Mexico.

Ok some interesting results for me tonight, I tried the footage I took and played it back directly from the TD10 to the tv, the problematic clips played perfectly without any issues of blurring so I can safely assume its not the source material (I think!), i'm thinking its now down to something in Sony Vegas, someone please correct me if i'm wrong. I find it odd though as its only on some scenes and not others, could it be that the TD10 is playing it back at 50i and the Vegas encode is at 50p? would that make the difference in some of the footage? surely if it were a Vegas issue the whole lot of footage I took would suffer from it?

I'm getting confused now! Ive just done a test render, exactly the same basic 720p50 settings in Vegas but I just imported the one clip which was the most problematic, only 2 mins long, it was perfect this time, no blurring etc. Can anyone explain to me what is happening? is it just Vegas not being very accurate? is it an issue rendering a long disc ie 2 hours playback? Is it something to do with keyframes?

Help!!

Don mentioned something about using 1 second keyframing to make the encode more accurate, think i'm going to give that a go, my only problem now is that I cant find any option in Vegas or anything related to keyframing, ive googled and not had any luck. Anyone use this?

OK, a new sub topic - Downloading to an External Media Device. I tried for the first time today to download my 3D videos from the Sony camcorder's internal memory to an external media device (USB attached hard drive - a WD My Passport Essential SE, 1 TB) All went well I think, but at the end when I got the message that the downloading was completed I did not get any prompt asking if I wanted to keep or delete the source data within the camera. Also the little icon that the paper manual said to click on when the loading was completed never appeared. (As a side note - the icon pictured is not shown anywhere else in the manual so I am not sure what it represents. It is the icon at the top right of page 48 where it states, "To disconnect the external media device 1. Touch [the icon] while the camcorder is in playback standby mode...") Anyone had similar experience and what does this icon represent? I did click on Menu to see if it would appear, but it did not. After putting the camera in playback mode the only thing that even remotely resembled the manual's icon was the internal memory icon which I clicked to no avail.

(On a separate note, after downloading [which took about an hour], I did turn the camera on without the USB attached hard drive plugged into the camcorder and it appears my data was still in the camera as I wanted. I just don't know if the download was successful to the hard drive and not sure how to find out short of hooking up the external drive to a computer since I will be keeping the same files on the camera's internal drive.)

Separately, I attempted to make a second download to another WD external USB hard drive (this one a 750 GB) as a further back-up. Any reason that should not have worked? I know the camera will search the original external USB attached hard drive to only download new files, but I assume a completely new hard drive would not be so restricted?

When I tried to connect the second external hard drive I got a message that the USB cable was not connected. I tried the USB cable from the first hard drive on the second one and got the same message so assume it was telling me that there was something wrong with the second hard drive and that it disconnected on purpose. Anyway, I got another WD hard drive (though a 1 TB like the first instead of the 750) and will be trying that tomorrow to rule out that assumption one way or the other.

In any event I'll be checking in the morning to see if there are any responses here to what I have described which may have raised any red flags prompting suggestions that I should be aware of before continuing.

Here's what I do with my external drive that connect directly to the TD10 without a computer in between. The drive is 1TB WD model WDBACX0010BBk-01 (per the drive sticker), which is a USB2 / USB3 WD passport drive.

1: Drive must be formatted FAT32. This means that files larger than 2GB won't store there unless broken into 2GB segments. The TD10 automatically does this splitting during recording. I formatted the drive once, back in May. FAT32 means that both Mac and Windows can access the files there. So the drive can also be used for direct access to store or retrieve backup data from a PC.

2: When I plug the drive into the TD10 and there are video files I haven't copied to the drive yet, from within the currently active storage device in the TD10 (internal or card, but not both at the exact same time) the TD10 lets me copy the files to the drive, as the first thing to do. So the USB drive is perfect for incremental backup, automatically managed by the TD10 - excellent. This is the so called "EASY COPY" function of the TD10. I have not tried to use a second compatible USB drive for a second backup. Instead, I backup the files after they are imported to the PC with PMB, using a different USB drive connected to the PC that is formatted NTFS so that files can be larger than 2GB, as PMB will join segments to make files larger than 2GB when they are imported to the PC.

3. All of the videos I ever backed up to the 1TB WD passport drive are playable through the TD10 when the drive is connected to the TD10. Excellent.

4. I can access the files that the TD10 copied to the usb drive when the usb drive is plugged directly into the PC, but the files are numbered differently when they are stored on the drive as compared with the file numbers in the memory of the TD10. The solution is to use the Sony supplied PMB software to import the files from either the camcorder or the USB drive when either is connected to a PC, as the PMB software manages the video files by date, and also provides other methods of organization besides file numbers. PMB allows trimming video files while retaining 3D content, but currently does not display 3D content. For 3D playback on the PC I use the separate "stereoscopic player" software.

5. I have other backup data stored on the 1TB drive besides videos. I stored these other backup files on the 1TB drive by direct PC USB access supported by Windows. This hasn't caused me any problems. The 1TB drive is half full and about 200gb of that is video managed by the TD10. I have not installed the WD supplied encryption software on the PC.

6. Another USB drive I have would not work directly with the TD10. This was listed by me back in May here in this thread. Since it wouldn't work directly with the TD10, that is the one I formatted NTFS with windows and backup my PMB managed content on the PC.

Summary-

A) I used the USB drive connected to the TD10 for backups and playback managed by the TD10.

B) I use an internal hard drive on the PC with PMB to manage videos from the TD10. I also use Sony Vegas for still frame captures in full SBS format. I have yet to burn a bluray with Vegas as I do not fancy the idea of having to convert my video to a lower bit rate, and haven't needed to distribute the 3D content to anyone else yet.

C) I use an NTFS formatted USB drive as a second backup, and also as a backup for the videos that I've trimmed with PMB.

D) I use "Stereoscopic Player" software to play back in 3D on the PC, and an LG D2342P monitor on the PC for 3D viewing using the passive RealD glasses from the theater.

With all this great stuff, who could ever go back to 2D?

Thanks Richard for your helpful response to some of my above questions. Any response to the "problems" I seem to be having disconnecting the external hard drive by following the instructions in the manual that refer to an icon that I fail to see? How do you complete and disconnect when the files have been transferred from the camcorder's internal drive to the external media device? Do you get a prompt that allows you to choose whether to keep the files on the camera's own memory or to delete it from the camera once it has been exported to the external hard drive?

Yes that is right - I have pointed that out in the SCS-Forum some time ago. I can confirm that both Vegas Pro 10e but also Vegas Moviestudio 11 Platinum HD need a Quadro for nvidia 3D Vision (not pro).

For me a Quadro 2000D worked fine.

That is not correct. Vegas Pro 10e can be used with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder with data rates up to 25 mb/s.

That can be done in Vegas Moviestudio too - but you have to change the templates manually to that data rate, and can save the new template with your own name. Especially for PAL user it is important to know, that a 720 50p template can be generated too, what is available in Vegas Pro10e anyway.

Those templates can be used in Vegas to create 3D images from the timeline too - works fine.

At least for the European model, the real issue is the 50i to 24p conversion in Vegas which is resulting in all sorts of motion issues. The correct way to do this is to slow the speed down slightly to 48i, and then convert to 24p. However, this is not what Vegas is doing. It is hard to figure out exactly what Vegas is doing but it seems to be throwing frames away instead.

Any help?

link for operating instruction manual
http://www.docs.sony.com/release/HDRTD10_EN_ES.pdf

In my use with the "Easy Copy" mode, with the TD10 directly connected to the compatible USB drive, at the end of copying, the screen displays "completed" and the elapsed time for copying is shown. I press the "OK" in the upper left hand corner of the LCD.

Then, a screen appears which shows the external media playback selection screen. The date of the most recent videos is shown, with thumbnails from the most recent videos.

In the lower left hand corner there is an icon of the camcorder. Pressing this icon exits the external media access, opens the lens cover and enters the camcorder mode.

This is consistent with the step 6 and sub-step 1 on page 48 of manual linked above. What icon are you not seeing? Perhaps the .pdf manual is different and more up to date than the paper manual.

Splash Player reported average bitrate of left view is 13 Mbps only...
s****y interlace at this low bitrate with G lens (visible chromatic aberration at x10)...
Not happy with TD10

A conversion from 1080 50i to 1080 24p is not easy - it can be done, but I prefer to convert to 720 50p. The reasons for that are quite clear: yes you have to deinterlace the footage (what means that you have to enable deinterlace in the project properties by choosing "blend" or "interpolate, but not by using "none"). And you have to scale the footage down from 1920x1080 to 720p. BUT you will not change the frame rate.

To change the frame rate requires an interpolation of every frame, but not if you go from 1080 50i to 720 50p. Vegas interpolates frames if you do convert to 1080 24p.

The way you describe can be done manually - but that is more work.

By the way, the limitation is not driven by Sony, but the 3D blu ray specification - what allows 1080 24p, 720 50p and 720 60p only. I would have liked to see in addition 1080 50i and 1080 60i too.

Thanks - that was very helpful. I don't know why I did not see the camcorder icon yesterday but when I attempted to download onto a second USB connected hard drive today it was there. Unfortunately, however, the camera would not let me download onto a second drive as I hoped I could do. I did connect the first drive to my computer and confirmed that yesterday's download was successful - at least for the 2D highlights I had saved and there were streaming clips of some 400 files that I could play individually in 2D on my computer. I assume the 3D files are also there though I was unable to access them with the computer.

If you recorded in 3D mode, only 1 file results that contains both the the 2D and 3D content in it.

The 2D part is the information for one eye. 3D is when the information for both eyes is played.

Player software such as PMB and VLC only play the 2D part, and ignore the 3D part. Power DVD11 plays the 2D part, ignores the 3D information, and synthesizes a weak pseudo-3D playback.

The method I use to play back files so I can see the 3D on a 3D compatible monitor connected to my computer is the "stereoscopic player" software, available from the link below, including a version which plays 5 minutes at a time for trial / free.

http://www.3dtv.at/Downloads/Index_en.aspx

This is the only way I get a true 3D playback from the TD10 camcorder files stored on the PC hard drive. Other playback methods include making a bluray disk, and directly connecting the TD10 to the monitor, but neither of these are playing the files on the PC hard drive directly as the "stereoscopic player" does.

Thanks again. I do have a Toshiba 3D laptop (though I have never used the 3D feature on it) and it is apparently loaded with some Nividia 3D drivers. Curious if this would allow for 3D viewing as your "steroscopic player" does? Admittedly, I don't have a whole lot of motivation to experiment since I prefer the bigger picture available on my 3D TV even though it requires playing 3D video back through the 3D camcorder.

Typical players that support 3D are intended for use with bluray optical disks as the source of the 3D content, and may not play true 3D from TD10 files directly using the vendor supplied software. I am thinking that your 3D laptop has a bluray drive for this purpose.

On the other hand, that Stereoscopic Player would be used on your Toshiba Laptop if you wanted to watch the TD10 3D files instead of a bluray, since the Stereoscopic Player supports "Nvidia 3D Vision" LCD shutter glasses in its selection of supported view methods.

Hi guys/gals. I though it might be a long shot but I still decided to make a petition for Sony to release, even a paid firmware upgrade for our HDR-TD10's to make them do all that HXR-NX3D1's do , apart from having the XLR mic, handle and ND filter.

So what do you say, can we get some signatures here ?
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/h...mware-upgrade/

If you know anybody with HDR-TD10 or someone that even want to buy one, please ask them to sign it ! It might be a fools dream but we have spent enough on it to ask for some simple manual controls, 24p and overlay viewing mode rather then constant autostereoscopic 3D. It's not much to ask for.

Let's make it happen !

Thanks again, again. You are correct on all accounts as it is intended for use with bluray optical discs as the source of 3D content and it did come with the glasses. (Toshiba Satellite A665-3DV with logo on the front reading, "nvidea 3D Vision") I bought it when it first came out and all of the needed 3D software was not initially available. Hopefully the updates I have tried to install have remedied that though once I got a 3D TV that has been the focus for my 3D viewing.

Good to be belliever With fw upgrade waiting for
- increased bitrate for MVC up to 28Mbps or more (now only 20Mbps! - 1 min of any file is ~200MB)
- SBS mode for 1080p60(50)

"increased bitrate for MVC up to 28Mbps or more (now only 20Mbps..."

I am confused; the spec right now for MVC on the camcorder is 28Mbps, right?