Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 33

Tony- welcome to AVS. Your question has to do with Vegas Movie studio HD Platinum v11. You should post your question in the thread for that.
I do believe you are trying to render your Vegas timeline to record to the camcorder, like a VCR using mini DV tape or tape based camcorder using a 1394 controller, which the TD10 is not. That's why you get the error device not available. At this time the best output of edited video in 3D that was shot with the TD10 is to render and burn to a Blu Ray BD-R under the tools menu. The work flow for doing that is in the help files in Vegas MS Plat. HD.

Here's my latest 3D sample clip, a flamenco dance performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VZvtXFvXgBA

This was recorded at Louisville KY's WorldFest on Saturday, 9/3. It was over 100 degrees without a cloud in the sky. The group somehow performed for a full half hour.

Using the advice of those in this thread, the clip was mastered in Vegas at 720p60.

Hopefully I'll have some 3D footage from last week's Louisville Zombie Attack up later this week.

Chad Thomas
Just in Time Films

"Using the advice of those in this thread, the clip was mastered in Vegas at 720p60."

For uploading to Youtube, it is not optimal to render at 72060p. The MVC files are 108060i. To maximize quality for Youtube, the render should be 108030p. Youtube will convert to 30p whether your clip is 60p or 30p. And 1080 is an option to watch your video on Youtube. You reduced the resolution by a lot and gained little in terms of smooth action.

Very nice clip, though.

Thanks for the feedback; that's why I posted on here. I'll try re-rendering in 1080p30 and replace the video file.

I liked the subject material but I am sure the Youtube video does not look nearly as good as the original. The Sony is much better.

As I suspected. This was a scam. ( Scam to mean that it is sold to do something it can't do) The two lenses they send out are 37mm wide angle and 37mm telephoto. Not only don't they fit, they come with instructions to mount on a standard 2D consumer camcorder with that size lens. Yet the advertising clearly states for the HDR TD10. I will be calling the retailer tomorrow for RMA number.

Interesting thing is I only paid for the wide angle lens but they sent me both the wide angle and the 2X telephoto. Neither will fit.


First of all anyone who owns a Sony HDR TD10 knows this 3D camcorder has no threaded front end for any lens attachments. Therefore the only way to mount a lens attachment like a filter or mattebox is to modify the flange on the camcorder front with a threaded ring. I found the 77mm 1:1 step ring works best. Or as in the case of a Chroszeil Mattebox, you mount it with a set of rails and a plate that screws to the bottom 1/4-20 tripod mount.

So, if any of you see these being advertised, and the price looks dirt cheap, don't bother as they won't work, in 2D much less 3D mode.

Here's quick links back to two Filter mounting adaptation posts in this thread

Don Landis glued on ring from 1A filter
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post20499300

Michael Worley Cavision 3x3 matte box mounted on a rod support system
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20502131

Both of these are fantastically innovative, including photos of the setup

Question for Don - you wrote, "Have to go do some shooting to see if this is a problem. (with built in TD10 microphone)" - Are there results of this yet? And also - What's a good approach to unglue the ring?

Question for Michael - Is this rod support system something I can buy off the shelf or can you supply machine shop fab files?

The rod support system is off the shelf. You just have to buy it sized for the TD10. I have one here too but not for the TD10. Mine is quite a bit larger as it fits the broadcast cameras.

Sound issues with the ring adapter- I thought I did post this but simply repeated, it depends...

No problem when shooting without the filters screwed in. With filter in place the glass blocks the front facing mic and causes sound direction issues. Without the filter glass in place, just the ring, I have no observable issues. So, when I use a filter, I attach one of the hot shoe mics. Problem solved! Note- this will be an issue with any lens accessory, including the rail matte box system.

Removal of the ring- Most glues have a glue removal solvent. I have removed my ring once already using acetone solvent. I do not recommend anyone do this if you want to maintain your TD10 in factory mint condition. My camera is a tool I use to get images. It is not something I am buying and holding for resale.

Here's the clip re-encoded at 1080p30:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Jd_-O_bP0

Thanks again for your help.

Thanks Don, I have to ask a few q's in that forum.

Have you, or any one else been able to move files from pmb to the camera?
When I've tried this it said I was successful, but the movie isn't there.

natiahs .... excellent! even in anaglyph

I uploaded a video to youtube last night, it plays all stretched out, it says I have to halve it's width and try again ... is there a way around this?
I will look for the 1080p30 setting for my next try.

There is no way to render a 3D video in Vegas that is compatible with the 3D file structure needed for playback in the TD10. Several of us have made a request to Sony to have this as a template in the next release of Vegas. I have had success in using PMB to export Vegas rendered 2D files back to the camcorder for playback in the camcorder. In 2D just render to a format that is identical to the format the camcorder records.

Hey guys, I'm trying to make up my mind between the Sony HDR-TD10 and the Panasonic HDC-SDT750. The Sony is like $750 more expensive, so I'm like to settle for the Panasonic, however, if there are obvious reasons why I should but the Sony, I will spend that extra money.

I searched the forum for Sony HDRTD10 vs Panasonic HDCSDT750 and search results didn't have any specifically related threads. If anyone can guide me to the right thread, that would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Danny

The TM750 is a better 2D camera than the Sony TD10, in particular in sharpness, color accuracy, and the ability to manually control audio. But the difference in 2D, while clear, is marginal compared to the difference in 3D mode.

The TD10 is superior in every way to the 750 as a 3D camera. It, in my view based on ownership of both cameras (I actually have the TM900 with 3D adaptor and the TD10) and the Sony 3D Bloggie and the Fuji W3, the worst 3D camcorder available, leaving aside cell phones and the Aiptek and Viewsonic toys. It has no manual controls in 3D, not even convergence - no zoom and fixed focus. It is 1/2-frame sbs at *less than* 960x1080 per eye (there is a black frame added which reduces the resolution). The Sony 3D Bloggie take better 3D videos. The Bloggie is also 1/2-frame sbs but no black frames, and looks sharper.

The TD10, on the other hand, provides 2x1920x1080 resolution, you can manually focus and control exposure, you can control convergence and it has a 10x zoom in 3D mode. The 3D videos from the TD10 look better than those from the Panasonic even when reduced to 1/2-frame sbs in post.

And, the TD10 has a superb 3D glassless lcd - so you can actually see the 3D while you shoot. The LCD on the Panasonic is 2D - so you are shooting 1/3 blind. Even the 3D Bloggie has a 3D lcd.

If you are interested in 3D video, the TM750 is a poor choice.

Don, thanks for clearing that up, something I read, touted reloading 3d to use the camera preview as a feature. I was concerned there was a camera problem.

Here is my youtube clip ... oops won't let me post url yet


I think I am going to try and build a simple stabilizer and seriously consider a matte box once I get a real 3d monitor.

youtube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6muhyvO_-0

Further update- I called the retailer and they were very apologetic, claiming they didn't know the product. They told me they didn't want me to return the lenses but would rather send me a second NPFV70 battery and a charger that has about the same value as the lenses. Again, apologized, and hoped I would consider them for future orders.

If the two items arrive as promised, I will consider this an honest mistake. 3D is new and these salesmen are expected to be an expert on everything. They also deal with mostly consumers who don't know much about what they are buying too. It's a tough job and a fine line between being considered a scam and an honest mistake. Often it is the restitution that separates the the two.

All three camcorders have been reviewed at camcorderinfo.com. I chose the TD10 because it is full 3d and has a 10x zoom. Only way to to produce a 3D blu-ray is with Vegas Pro and even then it is converted to 1080p24 with no menus. I use cineform Neo with premier pro for editing. I have the trial version of Vegas but will probably wait for version 11 to see if they improve things.

Please add the 3D tags so people can see this in 3D.

It was! just activated 3d again ... I can view it anaglyph.

It looks like you cannot add tags anymore!

The anaglyph version plays unevenly, I would appreciate feedback from higher quaility viewers.

Just been looking at the 3D Blu-ray specs:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...per_110712.pdf

This says it only supports

1920x1080 23.976 progressive
1280x720 59.94 progressive
1280x720 50 progressive (optional)

None of which are supported by the TD10. I am begining to think I made a mistake in buying this machine. Clearly the HXR-NX3D does support 1920x1080 23.976 progressive. Is the Sony firmware upgradeable to include this format on the TD10 and if so will Sony release it. My guess is that they won't as they would rather people bought another camcorder.

I have Cineform Neo which can deinterlace and change the frame rate. I am not sure how good vegas would be at doing that.

AVCHD2 inludes all the Sony specs (although Sony don't seem to claim AVCHD2 compatability) , we just need to wait for everyone else to come upto AVCHD2 spec and catch up with Sony.

Trevor- The TD-10 is a 3D / 2D consumer camcorder. It is not a Blu-Ray device and has no association with Blu-Ray. It is a camcorder and there are no requirements a camcorder must follow. In order to go from your TD-10 to BluRay you'll have to use Sony Vegas which supports all the Blu-Ray specs. formats in it's rendering output collection plus many many others but not everyone that we would like to see, in particular, 3D MVC 1080 60i

The fact that Sony offers a similar output format as specified by the Blu-Ray standard in their Prosumer version just says that you can record in that format in the camcorder and not need to transcode to render to Blu-Ray in Vegas. Having that format in the prosumer camcorder does not eliminate needing Vegas in the work flow to get to a Blu Ray disk.

Will Sony offer the 1080 24p recording format in the TD-10 consumer camcorder? They could and just might in a future version of the camcorder next year maybe what I will call the "TD-11". There are a number of enhancements externally AND INTERNALLY that differentiate the HDR TD-10 from the HXR-NX3D prosumer version. If you must have that level of camcorder, then Sony offers it now. Can the TD-10 be upgraded to include the format via a firmware change? Maybe, maybe not. Often there is much more going on inside the camcorder that we don't understand. We do know that the HXR-NX3D has considerable more memory internally and different circuitry to support a number of prosumer features not included in the TD-10. So, my guess is that the current TD-10 will not and can not be firmware upgraded. But as I do not know what's involved there is always that possibility.
Look at it this way- It is Sony's past history to come out with new models rather than upgrade older ones for free or for price even if capable. If JVC and Panasonic and Canon all do it ( have the recording mode) in consumer level product then I'm sure Sony will add that to the next version to keep competitive. If Sony does not release a new model next year and the current TD-10 is capable of being upgraded, then I would think Sony would want to make a buck selling a firmware upgrade, leaving it up to you if the price is worth it. But don't hold your breath as that would be a departure from Sony's SOP.

There are those ( icerat4) who want to be able to record a 3DBD direct from the camcorder using a self contained Blu Ray burner for 3D. I'm sure recording in a 3D BD format would be the first step toward achieving that goal. I'm not in that camp but understand why and support that ultimate goal for them.

Don, Since you're talking about burning, .... I'm going to order a blu ray burner by tomorrow, are there any preferences, or ones I should avoid?

Finally saw the td10 output on a sony 3d tv ... pretty, pretty good!

Mine are Sata 4x. Matsushita drives. Been working fine for a couple of years. When I bought them 4X SATA was new on the market. I think you can get 6X or higher today at reasonable prices.

I have a pioneer BDR-202 which has been very reliable. I am going to upgrade to Pioneer BDR-206MBK so I can burn dual layer. There are lots of good reviews. As far as I can discover the MBK version is the best. There are other cheaper versions but I don't think they are so good. With burners it does not make sence to go for the cheaper models as media will cost far more than burner and so you need reliable burns. For Blu-ray I use verbatim.

Thanks for your reply Don. AVCHD 2.0 does support 1080i50 so it was very disappointing to find Blu-ray 3D does not. Of course it may be that in practice 3D blu-ray players may support 1080i50.

I do hope Vegas 11 will provide some MVC and 3d blu-ray improvements. I have a trial of 10e but I have found it to be buggy. The AVC encoded sometimes crashes with no explanation. Only having one time line is a real drag after using premiere pro.

Vegas permits unlimited timelines and unlimited number of instances of the software running simultaneously. You just need more ram the greater the number you want to work with.

Got the two items today! But they sent me another NPFV100. I would rather have the 70 but now I have two 100's and 6-70's in my bag. Guess I have enough batteries. The charger they sent is not the Sony but an aftermarket universal charger that runs off of AC and 12 VDC which is a nice addition for my kit. I'm testing the charger and battery out now.

The people do seem honest and have really great prices. If it were not a forum rule violation I would tell you all where you can get a great price on the TD-10 but I'm sure you can find it with a good Google search. Just be prepared for lots of mistakes and misinformation. PM me if you want to know more.

Thanks Trevor, that does look like an exceptionally good drive. I usually buy from Tiger, but they don't carry it, so I'll shop around.

If I burn a disk, the guys at pc richards will let me test it on their demo. I'm anxious to chip away at the work flow.

I don't know if you guys do any compositing , I threw a couple of animated layers over td10 backyard footage to see if it would hurt my eyes or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyHdfmjkk2Q

Very nice!

How did you generate your animation? Did you use chroma key or alpha channel to composite?