JVC GS-TD1 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 50

Joe- young kids do notice the 3D. My youngest experience with it was at my daughter's party and a young 7 year old boy was watching me shoot him so I flipped the camera screen around and below is the result. Fun times with 3D!

On bouncy cam shooting. I have lots of this stuff but the best integration was with the Harambe wilflife tour on a truck over a really bouncy dirt road. ( Richard Adams was there the same day ) With video like this I found it best not to fight the bounce but put several shots in where we get bounced around a bit and a shot of the ruts in the road along the way. Now the camera shake is expected and adds to the story as opposed to just a distraction. That doesn't always work but in the Harambe tour, I just decided to go with it and it did. On the same genre, a ride through It's a Small World was ruined by an obnoxious tourist who felt it his contribution to the rest of us to rock the boat and sing along off key of course. He was a big guy too and was up front in the shot. However, even in the shot, he ruined the small world story. I'll have to shoot that ride again someday. We editors must never lose sight of the story to be told which is the most important aspect of editing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Z7fo8Aav0

Cute video.

With my Garden video I've set up a style that I want to keep consistent. I have the time to get what I want - and now the cooperation of the Garden staff in getting it. I'd like to get something out in the next 3 months, but it might be spring before this is finished. That will depend on how much additional seasonal video we decide we need. I think there are a few shots I can salvage from when I was doing my initial tests in AVCHD mode on the JVC (side by side shots of Cherry trees blossoming and such). I'll have to see how well they hold up when edited into the final mix.

There have also been several happy accidents, mostly with kids. Those are always fun.

Supposedly, we are only a couple of months away from the release of the firmware upgrade of the TD1 to support AVCHD 2.0. Again, I hope this means full support, with a 24p shooting mode. If anyone gets any more specifics, I'd appreciate a heads-up in this thread.

I used my Blackbird stabilizer today on a tram ride, and I got some usable footage. When I get a chance to ride a golf cart with a Garden employee, I should get lots more. A 24p shooting mode would practically guarantee tons of usable shots, and without having to resort to using a deinterlacing filter, as I have to do on some of the 60i footage.

Yes it would be a great thing if the TD1 would allow real 1080 24p! Does anybody know if that will be true? The firmware update will include AVCHD 2.0, what should allow that.

"Supposedly, we are only a couple of months away from the release of the firmware upgrade of the TD1 to support AVCHD 2.0."

I am sorry, where is the JVC announcement of a firmware upgrade to the GS-TD1?

I only see that they will offering an upgrade to the bundled software that comes with the camera:

http://www.jvc.be/article.php?id=100127&catid=7&lg=nl

The files produced by the JVC do not conform to the AVCHD 2.0 spec right now. If there is only a software upgrade, then conversion will have to be employed to make blu-rays that conform to AVCHD 2.0, thus reducing quality.

Is there any more information?

You are right - sounds more like an update of the Everio software, maybe similar to the PMB 5.8 of Sony.

The rumored update is most often referred to as a firmware update of the camera, not just an update of the Everio software. The original JVC press release was in translated/broken English and unclear. We don't know what it means, thus the request for any new info to be posted here when something more formal is announced. We know the processor is JVC's new Falconbrid, the same one used in both the consumer and pro versions of the camera. The pro version is in stock right now at B&H Photo at a price about the same as the TD1 when it was released. It can shoot at 1080/24p. That's all I care about in a firmware upgrade, if that's what we're going to get. If the upgrade is not in firmware and it doesn't allow the camera to shoot at 24p, I'll upgrade to the pro version.

I posted the link to the "formal" and official JVC announcement above. It is in plain English, specific and easy to understand. And it's a software update. There is no firmware update. Period.

I'll bite. The JVC announcement above is for a free update to the Everio software. It is not the only JVC announcement that's been made, nor the only "firmware update" reference by other sources. There may or may not be a firmware update to the camera, and to presume that "There is no firmware update" based on the Everio announcement is wrong. They're two different issues. Either way, we'll know for sure in a couple of months. If you want "proof" about any of this, Google for yourself. This is the last time I go the least bit out of my way to respond to any of your snark.

I found the source of much of the "softness" that I attributed to the stereo base extender. There were smudges on the extender glass next to the JVC lenses. I don't know if they were there when I got it, or if I did it while shooting. Ken Burgess, of Cyclopital3D, has been extremely responsive to my e-mails. It's a small company with a new product, but they've been great to work with. If you don't have a dual camera rig, this is the best way to achieve some stunningly deep looking 3D images with the JVC.

"I'll bite. The JVC announcement above is for a free update to the Everio software. It is not the only JVC announcement that's been made, nor the only "firmware update" reference by other sources. There may or may not be a firmware update to the camera, and to presume that "There is no firmware update" based on the Everio announcement is wrong. They're two different issues. Either way, we'll know for sure in a couple of months. If you want "proof" about any of this, Google for yourself. This is the last time I go the least bit out of my way to respond to any of your snark."

I'm sorry that you were offended. You heard some news that was unwelcome. You said: "If anyone gets any more specifics, I'd appreciate a heads-up in this thread." Well this is your head's up. There is no firmware update coming.

You are correct you should not respond, as you have no facts to provide. That's the point. I was reporting the result of an extensive search, which you seem to resist. There are and were simply no JVC announcements of a firmware update anywhere in the world, and I am trying to stop the delusions and self-serving rumor-mongering that you persist with. While I can't prove a negative,

here are the "specifics":

The search for any JVC announcements of firmware updates has yielded absolutely nothing but one rumor source that was itself based on nothing.

This is the link to the August 29 report of an "announcement":

http://en.akihabaranews.com/105483/c...with-avchd-2-0


That is the source of the rumor. In fact, that site provides no link to any JVC announcement. The only relevant JVC announcement that exists is for the software update. All other non-JVC sites mentioning a JVC firmware update use this same rumor site as the source, not JVC. Just as you are evidently doing.

I did find two JVC announcements of the software update. This is the Japanese-language JVC announcement:

http://www3.jvckenwood.com/press/201...d1_update.html

I have had this translated. It is an announcement of the software update, not a firmware update. It is about being able to create AVCHD 2.0 3D blu-rays using an updated version of the software that came with the camera. Conversion from the non-standard JVC MVC video files.

I have also searched Asian and European web sites. In doing that I found the official JVC software update announcement in English, which I provided in my earlier post. It says the same thing the Japanese announcement says, except December is mentioned on the Japanese site.

It does not take a genius to figure out that if JVC were actually planning a firmware update they would have announced one, just as they announced the software update well in advance.

In fact, JVC has a history of only issuing fixes to their consumer cameras through firmware updates. No upgrades of features, ever. I looked at the firmware histories of all of their cameras, which they provide on their official web site. I have owned a few. There is nothing upgraded.

Now, you might ask why do I care? Because in fact I think JVC cameras yield the best video of all consumer cams. If they actually upgraded the 3D one to conform to any standard I would get it.

I found you peddling this phantom firmware update, and so I investigated it. I found nothing, you have nothing. And you should stop talking about it as if you know something and misleading people who read these posts. I was misled by you, and I do not like it. But you don't have to apologize. I just don't want others to be fooled too. Nor do you have to thank me for debunking your delusion, although I understand it is not what you want to hear.

There is no basis whatsoever to believe there will be a firmware update "by the end of the year", or ever.

I would be very happy to be proved wrong. But no one should invest in the JVC camera in the belief that it will have a firmware upgrade to make it conform to standards. Too bad, it's a great 3D camera.

The new Cyberlink Powerdirector 10 seems to be able to import JVC TD1 MVC files. It is also able to generate AVCHD BD-Rdisks, and even 3D Blu Rays (seems to be based on a MVC-Encoder).

I have not found out yet if you can create 3D Blu Rays also with menus - what would be really great. Even AVCHD BD-R/RE with menus would be usefull.

First tests of the sofware will answer the questions.

Anyone gonna test it? I am very interested in knowing what this software can do with the JVC MVC files?!

Yes, I have started to test the software. TD1 files can be imported, but there are still some other issues with the software (well, it is a first version in 3D....)

... this thread is getting longer and longer - we are speculating about plans of JVC and EVERIO. Finally we have to find out, that we all bought the wrong camera (TD-1) at a time, when MVC was just startingand the specification was not settled. How could we know that?

VEGAS 11 will NOT support the cam, as I heard at the IBC very clear.

Therefore I think I made the right decission, just to sell all my 3 TD-1-cams immediately. There is no future at all - believe me.

I am now waiting for the ordered PANASONIC Z-10000, which is doing the MVC-files with the codec, SONY TD-10 is using - I found out with the PANA testfiles, which I got in Amsterdam.

L.

Yes, the Panasonic Z10000 testfiles can be imported in Vegas nice... but do not oversee that there will be other NLEs that are able to handle TD1 files. The new Powerdirector 10 can do so, I am sure that other NLEs will follow.

POWER DIRECTOR 10....

Is this another "loosing money" solution, like MAGIX?
I am willing to learn, but do not want to be their betatesters...

L.

Since you are from Germany, there is now a clear description in German of what the PD10 can do and what not:

http://www.stammtisch.video-intern.c...&threadID=1450

http://www.videotreffpunkt.com/threa...threadid=13382

I downloaded PowerDirector 10 today and grabbed some mp4 clips from my last couple of days of shooting with the Clyclopital3D stereo base extender. Random stuff, really. I muted the ambient sound, added some music, applied the default transitions globally and told the program to use one of the stock menus. Then I burned the Blu-ray 3D directly in PDir 10.

The JVC MVC clips import directly into the program and play back a little smoother than they do in Vegas - good preview quality but somewhat choppy playback on my Core i5/GeForce 450. It certainly won't replace the Vegas/Premiere editing workflow, but for fast and dirty editing, it will be great. It renders really fast, too. And you get menus. That alone is worth the price of the program. I've used PowerDirector in the past, and it still feels pretty much the same as it did for DVD production. Not a full-featured, heavy duty NLE, but surprisingly useful. Just save often. It crashed a couple of times on me. But in fairness, this is my everyday system, so it's loaded down with a lot of crapola.

My last test finished rendering pretty fast and it looks much better than the first one. I wasn't at all happy with the program's 60i to 24p conversion. It was much choppier than even Vegas. The second test produced better results. Perhaps further tweaking can improve the 60i to 24p conversion even more.

Anyway, here's the Blu-ray 3D iso file. It's still not completely uploaded, so give it a few minutes from the time of this post. It's full of the Cyclopital3D stereo base extender shots I promised a few days ago. Sorry it took so long. I've been busy shooting, trying not to miss out on the great weather. If you've seen what the unassisted TD1 does with distant objects, you'll be pleasantly surprised at the difference a 5 1/2" interaxial makes.

Haven't had time to play with 3D titles yet.

Great, thank you!

Joe:

I downloaded the ISO,burned it to a BD-RE and played it on my Panny GT30. The quality is sensational and 3D depth is awesome. Aside from what PD's limitations may or may not be compared to the VP11, it puts out a great 3D Blu Ray disk with a real 3D menu with tremendous picture quality.

As a humble(?) amateur, that is all I need.

Marty

Joe,

I also burned your iso to a BD-RE, and played it back on my 50 inch Panasonic Plasma. Well, two comments:

- I think we have to take care with the huge stereo base. In take 2 and take 3, you hurt the depth volume and it becomes painfull - that video hurts immediately. I think the major issue is that the distance between you and the nearest objective was too small. Especially take 3 is something that can not be displayed on a 50 inch plasma anymore - on a smaller size very likely yes.

- I would not encode to 1080 24p, since you come from 1080 60i. That is fine for a picture without motion, but if motion comes in you will not be happy.

But thank you for the video - there are also nice parts in with a great 3D effect, that are painless and I liked that really. I would have liked to have a variable stereo base.... hmm.

Thanks, Wolfgang. I don't experience any discomfort with the degree of separation, watching on a 63" plasma or a 110" home theater screen, but I understand your comments. I'm not typical in terms of what I can tolerate. That's one reason I won't be able to use PowerDirector 10 Ultra for many of these shots. I plan to use Cineform Neo to adjust parallax for some of them, which PDir can't do. And some of them simply won't cut together with the other shots I've already collected. Heck, some of them won't even cut together with other shots also done with the stereo base extender. I avoided putting those together in this short scene, because the transitions from shot to shot were simply too jarring. When the shots can be used, though, the difference is stunning. If you don't mind, I might want to pick your brain along the way as I edit this piece. I know you have a great deal of experience with 3D.

As for 60i to 24p, there's little choice. This video will end up as a 24p Blu-ray 3D disc. From Vegas, 60i to 24p motion conversion for most of my existing clips looks quite good. That's because the motion is fairly minimal. With more challenging clips, I've found that the free Yadif (Yet Another De-Interlacing Filter) works well. That's the one Petri discovered, and with it I've been able to salvage a few clips that I had given up on before. I know I can make this project work going from 60i to 24p. What I wish I had was the pro version of the JVC, and I will probably end up with it. It does shoot at 24p.

I believe that when AVCHD 2.0 hits, we'll be able to create discs that will work in the new players that understand the format (once companies like Cyberlink support it). That should mean we can maintain pristine, original image quality from our 60i 3D camcorders all the way to disc. However, my project needs to be compatible with all 3D Blu-ray players out there. No choice for me.

I think once you see what PDir 10 does to scenes with certain kinds of motion, you probably won't want to output to regular Blu-ray 3D format without using Yadif. You probably won't be happy with the choppy, stuttering results. But, once AVCHD 2.0 arrives, the best way for most people to edit will be at 60i. As long as your new player understands that, it should look just like what we see when we use the JVC HDMI output from our camcorders straight to our 3D TVs.

Joe- Been busy with other stuff too, with Vegas 11, PD10, a new computer for 3D, and the variable IA bench system, not much time for editing.

I just downloaded your latest work and must say it looks to be the highest quality I have seen. There was no judder that I saw and the SBE is looking fantastic. I'm sure it is bringing a smile to your face when you look at it. I don't see anything wrong with your output from the PD10. Looked quite good here.

Joe, all what I wish to point out is that we have to be carefull. There is the wellknown experience that we who edit 3D a lot, become more and more resistant against things like headaches. But others are not trained in the potential stress when 3D may become painfull. I think your footage is great, since it shows in a great way how the extention of the stereobase will increase the 3D effect. But it shows also that we have to become carefull and take more care about the 3D rules.

What I see here is that it would habe been great to have an extender that allows us to modify the stereobase - even if I know that this will be more expensive. But that would be great. The existing extender is fine too, as long as the minimum distance to the first object is large enough. I am sure I will order one when it will be available for the Sony TD10. To film in the nature or a large park is great. But I think that there are limitiations - it will not be so fine to film humans within the near range. Here an extender to a smaller stereo base would have been more usefull, but it is what it is.

Yes, the takes are not arranged in a way where we take care about stereoscopic continuity - ok, but what? It is for demonstration purposes only.

By the way, the PD 10 can adjust parallaxe - but that is something where you adjust the convergence and define the position of the stereoscopic window. But as far as I understand that up to now, there is no way to adjust the stereobase in the postpro.


I have to agree with Don that the quality is really good. I like that. The MVC-Encoder in the PD10 seems to work fine. At least with more motion the conversion to 720 60p would be better maybe - due to the fact that your acquisition footage has interline flicker anyway, what you cannot avoid even in static pictures without a lot of motion.

Yes, the Pro Version will even be better, or you take the more professional Panasonic Z10000. Both will allow 24p.

I need to adjust parallax manually while shooting. Ken Burgess from Cyclopital has been great providing me with tips on shooting with the SBE in place. I'll get better with it. He also explained why the Sony TD10 and the JVC TD1 look so different in terms of convergence. They handle it in a completely different way. The JVC adjusts convergence to the focus point, while it remains fixed with the Sony. Neither is better, just different. The JVC and the Fuji W3 do it the same way. With the JVC, you can manually adjust it to stay fixed, which will affect especially how zooms look (in terms of convergence). The depth is almost identical for both camcorders, though, because the interaxial distance is so close. It's the position of the stereo window that can change with the JVC. Cyclopital3D is working on an SBE for the Sony, too.

One of the reasons I'm happier with some of this more recent footage is that I'm utilizing the JVC's manual controls better. That will be my MO from here on out.

Thanks, Don, and yes, the stereo base extender shots look amazing to me and definitely bring a smile to my face. That's the kind of depth I want in my 3D. Shaw's Garden is an ideal place to utilize the SBE.

Wolfgang,

I'll have to look for that parallax control in PowerDirector 10. That makes it even more valuable. As for 60i to 24p, there are definitely motion problems with my footage, but there may be ways to minimize them. I haven't had the time to explore PD10's features yet.

Yes, I had some short contact with Ken, and I am aware that they have bought a Sony TD10 and are working on an TD10 extender. I would have liked to have that earlier, since I wrote an article about the TD10 in an German magazine and would have loved to include that in testing (so I have been able to mention it only).

Well, for the convergence - you can adjust that also manually with the TD10 to a fixe point and also shift the position of the stereo window - so no difference here. In the automatic mode I am still not quite sure about the TD10, maybe it is a fixed number here even if I see that most objects are behind the stereo window (what is great since that is the real comfort zone for the human brain).

Yes I also like to adjust the parallax manually - but you can do that also in the postproduction if you like, even if you have to crop the video. What I miss both in the TD10 is a permanent display how far the stereo window is away from me - but I think that is the same with the TD1.

So I will be keen to test Kens extender also for the TD10, when it is ready.

I forgot to mention that I output this same project as a 60i MVC m2ts file. It maintained high quality and of course there was no deinterlacing of 60i to 24p. It looked smooth as the original. That's what we have to look forward to with AVCHD 2.0.