JVC GS-TD1 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 52

At the moment and with CS5.5 there is not integrated 3D workflow in Premiere - and that is why I have asked for what version of Neo you use. My understand is that Neo 3D brings a 3D plugin to the party, that allows you do do all the adjustments that you need for 3D. But how will you do that if you use Neo only?

The second issue is that this combination CS5.5 - Neo will not habe an MVC encoder, what is requirde for 3D Blu Rays. So maybe, with Neo 3D and CS5, it is possible to export a 3D format, for example sbs full as 1080 24p. I assumet that footage can be imported in PD10, to create 3D Blu Rays. But has somebody tested if Cineform Intermediate can be imported in the PD10?

The GS-TD1 came today, I'm planning on going bowling late tonight and Tennis tomorrow afternoon. Any suggestions for my first shoot?
I have already set the camera to 3D THR mode and turned off the AIS.
I really appreciate the help, thanks very much to everyone.

I just tried importing some Cineform intermediate files into PD10 and it doesn't see them as 3D. I'm using Premiere 5.0.3 and Neo. Neo has all the features I've needed so far to work with my MVCtoAVI split 3D files, once they're muxed into Cineform intermediate format - color correction, rotation, zoom, etc.

Try to pick subject matter in which there are objects in the foreground, middle ground and background. It will enhance the sense of depth. Despite what I know or have read before, I like to experiment with what's "legal" and what's not. That way, I can see for myself what works and what doesn't. You probably won't want to show these experiments as examples of your "work," but you'll learn a lot by trying different things. Learn by doing is still the most valuable technique I know.

Thanks Joe, those are the same versions of CS5 and Neo that I have.
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I have some previous experience shooting. I've been into photography for 45 years (yes, I did the whole B&W darkroom and followed by the Dicoric colorhead thing). I've had lots of prosumer video cameras, stuff like the Pany HVX200 and JVC HD-100. I never leave the house without my two Pany HDC-SD600's, I love my Canon T3i and I cut my 3D teeth on a pair of Kodak Zi8's on a flash bar, followed immediately by the Fuji W3.

My video shooting/editing experience has mostly been corporate from shoot to Web & DVD, that's why I prefer the Adobe CS platform.

Luckily, I've never done weddings. At Least, Not yet!

But not the 3D capabilities that Neo 3D seems to bring to the party, as far as I undestand the product description of Neo and Neo 3D?

Neo vs Neo3D Comparison chart
http://www.cineform.com/pdfs/Neo3D_vs_NeoHD.pdf

For my JVC files, I don't see a need for Neo3D. I have several edge violations that I need to correct, because of the way the TD1 handles convergence, but I'm pretty sure Neo will suffice.

Did you guys get an HDMI Mini Cable to HDMI with your cameras as shown on page 6 of the owners manual?
I carefully unpacked everything and noticed that the provided cable is a flat cable with full size HDMI to full size HDMI. All other accessories seem as shown in the manual.

The cute little remote seems like something I would easily misplace, so I tied it to a good size cord from an old thumb drive.

I think mine was a mini to full size HDMI. It's been too long, though. I've had it for almost 6 months.

I mentioned edge violations, and the comment deserves more elaboration.

The JVC handles convergence by adjusting the 3D image so that the left/right pairs converge at the point of focus. The problem with this is that it's going to create edge violations (collisions between objects in the foreground and the screen borders). If you shoot as I do (often with foreground objects on the right or left side of the frame), you're bound to create those collisions. The answer is to use Cineform Neo's horizontal adjustments to bring those colliding objects back behind the edges of the frame, where they belong. Sliding the images horizontally a bit and applying zoom, you can see objects being "pushed back" into the frame.

To avoid having to do this, you can adjust parallax manually when you shoot, and do the "pushing" while you record. This prevents the inevitable resolution loss of zooming in post. I adjust parallax while shooting macro shots, and it's critical for stereo base extender shots, too. Even without those attachments, you still need to understand how convergence works on the JVC. If you don't, you'll be forced to do a lot of adjustments in FirstLight or Vegas. Believe me - I've learned the hard way.

BTW, the parallax control button only appears when you're viewing in 3D on the camcorder's display. It's a pair of offset triangles. Press it, select "Manual" parallax control and set it positive or negative until the images converge at the point of the closest object on the screen edges. You can still get pop-out effects, so long as the parts that stick out don't collide with the screen edges. Flowers, swords and knives (cheesy) and such are examples of what can work.

Thanks very much for the extended explanation. It's very much appreciated.

Thank Ken Burgess of Cyclopital3D (makers of the JVC SBE and filter adapters) for explaining what I was seeing, and how it affected my results. I could see what the JVC was doing, but Ken explained exactly why it had such an impact on my video. I now know exactly what to do to correct this persistent problem in my shooting, without having to resort to a lot of work in post.

Thank you for the Neo information - I got the description wrong, and had the impression that Neo does not have 3D capabilities. But it has. Fine.

The other part are the 3D basics - to get the depth bracket right, to adjust the depth position to the closest object. Sure, if you adjust convergence to the closest object your are always fine and avoid edge violations. I really liked the book aof Bernhard Mendiburu for learning something about the basics. I think for the SBE that becomes even more important.

I agree. I bought a used copy in like new condition. I enoyed the book very much.

Did you all check out the DVD that is included? With that the explanations in 3D space make even more sense.

No, I did not check the DVD. Frankly spoken, for a non-native speaker it was sometimes hard to follow the book. Beside the language, some of the parts are not really clear. But all together, his first book is a recommendation. The second book - well: I am not sure if like it really. It is a lot of blabla...

My question of the day is specfic to the Vegas 11 workflow.
After I use MVCtoAVI to convert the MP4 clips from my GS-TD1 to separate Left and Right flies (using the Cineform Codec), why can't I just put those clips on the Vegas timeline, select both clips and then right click and pair them as a Stereoscopic 3D Clip.

What if any, is the advantage of muxing them into yet another Cineform 3D AVI file?

Maybe you have not established a 3D project in the project properties?

You can do that if you're happy the clips. The advantage of muxing them in Firstlight is the ability to apply corrections and have those corrections change dynamically as you edit. It also tidies up your work windows. It is one more step, though, that takes time.

Thanks Joe, I appreciate your response.

Joe, besides using the Cineform codec (which is expensive) is there another way to convert the JVC's MVC files with the converter? (Without having them be many gigs)

Sure. You can use the free Matrox codecs found here. These codecs are comparable to the Cineform ones in terms of quality and the amount of hard drive space used. I've used the Matrox VFW MPEG-2 I-frame HD codec (at about 120mbps) and it seems quite comparable to Cineform. You can vary the bitrate to save space, just like Cineform. Specifying this codec in MVCtoAVI, you can create files which can be imported directly into Vegas and paired - no intermediate 3D files necessary. Petri provided this information several weeks ago.

Since I have Neo and FirstLight, I still prefer to use Cineform intermediate files, especially since I need to make adjustments to many of my clips - convergence, color and brightness corrections, etc. As I mentioned, it also simplifies the workspace, which I much prefer to the many files that importing and pairing separate streams involves.

Thanks Joe!

Could I just download this, http://translate.gopro.com/3d-cinefo...ware-download/

Would it have the proper codec needed?

I don't know. Give it a try and let us know. I'll do the same in a few days. Kinda swamped right now.

If you don't want to use Peter Wimmer's utility to convert the JVC's MVC files to Cineform or Matrox formats, you have an alternative in the form of PowerDirector 10. You can pull the JVC clips into PD10 and use it to convert them into a 3D m2ts file at 24mbps. Those files then drop directly into Vegas and seem to edit just like Sony TD10 files. The really good part about this is that the file size stays very small - actually smaller than the original in my case, since I shoot everything at max bitrate (34mbps) with the TD1.

Here's a workflow I'll be using for some projects:

1. Make basic edit decisions as to which clips to use and their rough order.
2. Import the clips into PD10 and assemble a simple, untrimmed timeline of full length clips.
3. In the "Produce" section of PD10, export the clips as MVC at 24mbps.
4. Import the resulting m2ts file into Vegas and edit normally. You can split the clips wherever you want, to add transitions, titles, etc.

The quality is going to take a hit, especially compared to using something like Cineform, but it's fast and easy and saves monstrous amounts of hard drive space over the Cineform and Matrox alternatives. In Vegas, you have the opportunity to use Yadif to de-interlace the files so that motion looks better than it does if you burn directly to 3D Blu-ray in PD10.

I still don't know a way to get Vegas to export video in a format usable by PD10, so that you can use it to create 3D menus. I still haven't had a chance to do much with PD10, but just as a converter for JVC mp4 clips, it's worth its price.

BTW, files converted in PD10 this way look much, much better than native side by side files created with the TD1. I noticed some artifacting (mainly MPEG blocking) in my first tests. Now that I've switched to 24mbps, that artifacting seems to be gone. The m2ts files that PD10 exports look very good at that setting. And of course there's no stuttering motion problem, since they're still 60i.

I just got an e-mail from Peter Wimmer and he says that if there is a problem with his MVCtoAVI utility splitting 24p JVC HMZ1 (pro version of the TD1) files to left/right pairs, he'll make it work. But he needs samples. On the off chance someone here can get hold of some, I'll ask you to PM me so I can get them to Peter. I'm ready to do the upgrade, but not if I can't split the files reliably. I wonder if PowerDirector 10 can do it, too.

Thanks very much Joe, for sharing the valuable workflow. Since I'm still using the trial version of PD10, I'll be on the lookout for a super low price on PD10. If you see a great price on PD10, please do share it.