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JVC GS-TD1 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 54

post #1591 of 2068
Welcome to the forum-

Haven't heard from Frank in a month.

Here's the thread where the twin cam 3D systems are discussed.

I show my final design and system for variable interaxial 3D shooting in post #533.

I don't shoot with the JVC. I use the Sony HDR TD10 which I feel lends itself to twin camera configurations better than the JVC because two of these in 2D mode can be synced for wide IA 3D using the Lanc port which the JVC does not have.

Shooting 3D with twin cameras absent sync is possible but not easy. I have done it. Just requires a few additional steps and then you are quite limited in how you shoot but it can be done.

I'm not sure about either camera on a crane with remote monitor. I know with the Sony TD10 you cant use lanc for camera remote control and have a composite video monitor in use at the same time. If your remote monitor has an hdmi input and is 3D you could connect using the hdmi cable and use the Lanc for remote control.
post #1592 of 2068
I just got a mini-review of the new Panasonic Z10000 from a friend, and after just a little time with the camcorder, he's very impressed. There's a manual convergence control that, apparently, makes setting it very easy. That's not too tough on the TD1, but it should be a piece of cake on the Panny. Sounds like it would save me a lot of time. He says the 3D screen is a notch down from the Sony TD10, and much better than the JVC. Much as I like the TD1, I'll be taking a very close look at other reviews of the Panasonic as they become available.
post #1593 of 2068
I am getting interested in the Panny also. The TD1 is good, but I want 24p shooting The pro JVC can do this as you said Joe, but I have a very bad feeling even though it can.. JVC uses their own MVC format and it may not work well with Vegas also.
post #1594 of 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravia3D View Post

I am getting interested in the Panny also. The TD1 is good, but I want 24p shooting The pro JVC can do this as you said Joe, but I have a very bad feeling even though it can.. JVC uses their own MVC format and it may not work well with Vegas also.

If the TD1 shot at 24p, I wouldn't be getting so worked up about the Panasonic. The way I shoot, 24p is ideal. Practically speaking, it's the conversions for editing and authoring that are so frustrating. 60i to 24p is not only time consuming - the video takes a serous hit. Also, the list of other practical Panasonic advantages is pretty long.
post #1595 of 2068
Joe- hope you find out about the optical image stabilizer on the Z-10000. That YT sample didn't look too good. I do a lot of hand held and have become spoiled with the Sony stabilizer technology. The JVC is good too but the Panasonic looked non existent. Need to get my hands on one!
post #1596 of 2068
Image stabilization is not high on my important feature list. As you know, I use a tripod for most things, and motion stabilizers can work against a tripod mounted camera. I almost always turn it off. It's a significant difference in our shooting styles.

You're prediction about my getting a jib is very likely to come true. This first video for the Garden is going to be a compromise in terms of the motion I'd like to see in the finished product, but down the line (if there is a "down the line," in a second iteration of this project) I really want a nice little jib. I can't do the work I envision without one.
post #1597 of 2068
Thanks, Don, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I'm enjoying the discussion at the link you provided!
Ames Gilbert
post #1598 of 2068
We have some German tests yet - image stabilisation seems to be weaker compared with the TD10. The TD10 uses both the optical and electronical stabilsation, but the Z10000 seems to use only the optical.

Also, ND-filters seems to be missing in the Z10000 - what can be an issue since you cannot use external filter in an easy way.
post #1599 of 2068
A recent Z10000 review, interesting reading.
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news...nes/13566.html
post #1600 of 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Sladek View Post

A recent Z10000 review, interesting reading.
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news...nes/13566.html

Indeed, that was a good read. I also learned some things about the big brother, the Panny A1. There's no way I'd want that expensive camcorder after learning about its limitations.
post #1601 of 2068
Agreed, I'll be watching for competitive pricing to begin on the Z10000.
post #1602 of 2068
There is no doubt this Z10000 has an excellent bag of feature goodies for the pro. The question remains- what quality level do these features have?

1. Compare the image stabilization with the HDR-TD10.
2. Compare the LCD 3D display resolution and brightness with the HDR TD10.
3. Compare the result color definition and dynamic range with the JVC TD1.
4. Compare the overall reliability of recording in auto mode ( Intelligent Auto ) with JVC and Sony consumer cams- Important for run and gun style of shooting.
5. Compare the sound quality in DD5.1 with the Sony TD10.
6. Compare low light level performance: 3 chip cameras are less low light sensitive than single chip. Having 3 chips is a trade off between image definition and sharpness with low light with video noise especially when comparing the same size imager.

Each of these has different importance to us depending on how we shoot. Personally, If I shot mostly sport events, the 42 mm IA would be a plus compared to half that for the consumer cams JVC and Sony. But if stabilization isn't as good, then to get professional minimum scene shot, may require a tripod or steadicam where the JVC and Sony could avoid that.

I guess the professional and serious amateur solution is own both and pick the cam that works for the shoot.
post #1603 of 2068
Good points, Don. I'm also very interested in reading upcoming Panny reviews. Wolfgang just got his, so we can expect feedback from him soon. I'd love to hear that the poor resolution results from W.Mayer for the Panny were an anomaly. On paper, there's so much to like about the camera.
post #1604 of 2068
Don,

Do I remember reading that you were a combat medic, and you did field surgery? Sounds like my Godfather, who served in WWII under Patton, in the Battle of the Bulge. He was reluctant to talk about those times, because they were so horrific, but when pressed he told me about amputations he had no choice but to perform. He was also strafed by a German fighter, with bullets hitting on either side of him, and spent all night in freezing waters with a doctor from his unit when the Germans opened up as they tried to cross a small river. Terrifying!
post #1605 of 2068
Joe I read Mayer's posts but that just confirmed the YT video I saw which was, quite frankly... awful! Both from a poor resolution angle but more so from a stability perspective. At the time I just chalked it up to user inexperience. I haven't ruled out Z10000 yet but the stabilizer and image quality has me concerned. Otherwise I like just about everything about it. It will fill the gap I have in my kit between IA 30mm or so and 43mm for shooting longer ranges. My minimum with the twin cams is 4" IA. But between you and me, I'll wait for NAB to see what Sony has to compete. Budget and NAB will be converged.

Yes, I was MOS 18D30 combat medic staff sergeant in SRF. I was never based in VN but we deployed on a mission basis usually lasting for 6-10 days at a time. As our LRRD was classified and mostly for advanced recon, we didn't see much action except once when the CIA/DIA intel screwed up. I was first trained as a field hospital corpsman but then the whole unit got activated for a 13 month tour in VN and the only way I could get out of it was to volunteer for SRF. Never did any amputations. Never had the time for that. Mostly tourniquet, Morphine, Put a letter "T" on his forehead, and load em up on the evac. It's all like a dark memory these days but I still have visions of my first KIA. Good counseling helps.
post #1606 of 2068
My Godfather lost all his skin, after he returned stateside. It was a nervous reaction. During the war, he was a rock, just like he was throughout his whole life in every situation he encountered. I personally saw him save a kid's life at a school. Another kid had dropped a desk down a stairwell and it hit the boy in the head. The EMS tech said that kid would have bled to death without the trained help my Godfather provided.

Such things (and the real-life problems of our loved ones) help keep all the video "drama" in perspective, don't they?
post #1607 of 2068
I've been chatting with a Grass Valley rep about the upcoming 3D version of Edius 6. He says the JVC MVC files are already supported natively. Here's a bit of what else he's told me wrt convergence and color controls:

"The 3D will be a free dot release later next year for owners of EDIUS 6 (the current version). We'll throw it out there for beta trials shortly. I'm not up on the depth of the color correction tools in the 3D product, but the tools we have today are exceptional and it is built on the same engine so I would expect nothing less. The convergence elements are still being worked on but we have engaged with the best in the industry on this technology so no doubt it will be special."

The trial may be delayed until January, but the half price "crossgrade" offer (for Premiere, Final Cut and Avid users) only lasts until the end of the year. That upgrade is to the full version of Edius.

I haven't used Edius as an everyday editor, but I like what I see in the trial (2D only). It appears that the 3D version may also (like PowerDirector 10) include the ability to burn 3D Blu-ray with menus. As such, Edius may be a "complete" end to end solution - like PD10 but with Vegas-like pro features (high bitrate, 10 bit processing, color correction, convergence control, waveform monitor, zebra, etc.). Of course, this is conjecture until we see what the trial version actually offers, but it's encouraging. By the time the final version is released, maybe Vegas will support the JVC files, but I won't hold my breath for that.

Just something for TD1 users to keep on the radar.
post #1608 of 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

"The 3D will be a free dot release later next year for owners of EDIUS 6 (the current version).

That is also what I have heard. They will launch the 30 day test version, and then come up with a final version, that is not communicated yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I haven't used Edius as an everyday editor, but I like what I see in the trial (2D only). It appears that the 3D version may also (like PowerDirector 10) include the ability to burn 3D Blu-ray with menus.

Well, it would be great to have also the authoring capabilities with menus, even if Edius never has been quite strong with blu ray authoring. But maybe they have not to defend their professional 3D blu ray authoring tools, so it may not be such an issue for them to come up with at least simple menus in the 3D authoring. Woud be great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

As such, Edius may be a "complete" end to end solution - like PD10 but with Vegas-like pro features (high bitrate, 10 bit processing, color correction, convergence control, waveform monitor, zebra, etc.). Of course, this is conjecture until we see what the trial version actually offers, but it's encouraging.

Edius has a broadcasting background. The tool is quite stabel and quite professional. For sure we can assume that all this features are available for 3D too (they are available for 2D yet too).
post #1609 of 2068
Joe- You mentioned in the past several times about using "spot focus" on your JVC as a favored option. In the topic of "I didn't know I could do that", last night I began exploring again in the menus of the Sony TD10 and discovered this feature. It is very cool and it isn't what I originally thought it was, that is "face detection." Have that too which is similar but finds faces in the crowd (automatically) and forces the scene to focus on the faces for perfect focus and exposure. Your "Spot focus" is more of a manual touch the spot on the screen where you will force the focus to that spot. Additional things I discovered I can do with it is force a focus point in the scene up close and the camcorder will jump into macro mode and completely blur the background, then touch the background and the focus will rack smoothly out to defocus that foreground part shift out of macromode and give a sfift in focus. It does more. Another setting in the menu allows you to use the same technique for manual "spot exposure" works the same way but now you force your scene to properly expose the spot you touch.

Some other features of this too are once you set this on, you get an icon on your screen where you can touch to toggle the spot function on and off. In off you return to Auto focus or go to full manual focus with the external knob near the lens. Touch the spot and activate manual spot focus than move the spot box to focus. This makes it easy to select as you can turn it on and off without needing to go through the nested menus deep into them to get to it.

Unfortunately, all these options are really cool for EFP shooting style like you do mostly but really difficult for me to juggle on the run in a crowd where if I hesitate, I'll miss the shot. Thank God the IA mode is so good as I will still use that but it's always nice to know this tool is at the bottom of the box. Thanks to you for bringing my attention to it.

And finally, this mode of spot exposure and spot focus is not available in 3D, only 2D so I can only use it when shooting my twin cams for 3D pairing. I believe the JVC allows this in 3D, right?
post #1610 of 2068
Yes, I can use the area focus/exposure feature in 3D. The TD1 allows for a lot of manual and semi-automatic control in 3D. Had I explored those manual controls earlier it would have prevented several shots from blowing out, or nearly blowing out. Going back through my shots, I keep kicking myself for not using the feature all the time.
post #1611 of 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Yes, I can use the area focus/exposure feature in 3D. The TD1 allows for a lot of manual and semi-automatic control in 3D. Had I explored those manual controls earlier it would have prevented several shots from blowing out, or nearly blowing out. Going back through my shots, I keep kicking myself for not using the feature all the time.

Yes, you stated the exact reason why I preach not to be constantly changing cameras or owning too many different kinds. You just can't know everything there is to know in a brief period of time. It takes lots of practice and experience to get really good with your tools. It's much easier to sell and buy another than to get good with what you have. Thanks again for your getting me to look into this on my camera.
post #1612 of 2068
I agree completely. I was so pleased with the JVC out of the box that I relied on its auto features far too long. Using the manual controls, I've been able to improve the quality of my shots dramatically. Using manual convergence is a must on the TD1, especially with the stereo base extender attached.

You've also made other comments lately that I've been giving some serious thought. In particular, you noted that the results you're getting with the latest version of Vegas look very close to some commercial 3D movies. I hadn't watched much commercial 3D since I started shooting my own, but that's changed lately. I've also noted that some of the "problems" with my footage are there in commercial discs, even at 24p. It's not the softening of the image that happens with 60i to 24p conversion - that can be a serious problem. It's more the judder that happens with the slow 24p frame rate. There's quite an art to moving the camera to minimize this effect. Slow movement usually doesn't cause much of a problem - which is the reason I'm not having severe issues with my Garden project. Fast movement also masks the problem. Swish pans happen so fast that the eye doesn't have enough time to pick up on the problem nearly as much. Moderate movement (camera or subject) is the worst. That's where the motion artifacts can be the most distracting. It's bad enough in 2D, but it's even worse in 3D. It's one of those differences between shooting 2D vs 3D that forces me to unlearn (or at least modify) so much of what I thought I knew.
post #1613 of 2068
Camera moves for 24 fps in dolly moves, pans and zoom rates are all well defined in the SMPTE pubs. You may consider looking into that. Also, there is considerable advantage to viewing in 240 Hz display vs. 120 Hz and certainly 60 such as I have with the Vizio.
post #1614 of 2068
What is the best (not the easiest) way to convert a 3D MTS file from the TD1 for use in Premiere as a single channel file? I'd like to burn this short project to a set top DVD.
post #1615 of 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Sladek View Post

What is the best (not the easiest) way to convert a 3D MTS file from the TD1 for use in Premiere as a single channel file? I'd like to burn this short project to a set top DVD.

If I wanted to maintain max quality, I'd probably use MVCtoAVI to split the file using the Matrox MPEG2 HD codec at 150 mbps. The resulting left/right files will be much, much larger than the original, but you can then import the left (or right) file into Premiere for normal editing, processing and export. Of course, if you're going to DVD and not Blu-ray, you'll lose a lot of the quality you expended so much time and energy keeping. An easier way to do it would be to use PowerDirector 10. Import the file and then simply burn it as a DVD.
post #1616 of 2068
Just to be clear here, I am talking about the MTS files, not the MVC files from the GS-TD1.

I agree, I would be better of using PD10 for quick and simple stuff, but I'll also need to repurpose this project to a menu driven web site as well as a standard set top DVD. For this project, my tool of choice will be Premiere Pro and Encore, because I can easily reporpose it to an entire flash web site.

Thanks very much for your speedy reply.
post #1617 of 2068
Oops. I misread.

Have you tried importing the file into Premiere, then simply rescaling it so that the left side fills the entire frame? That's essentially what happens when an editing program like Vegas processes side by side footage. Premiere's scaling routine should give you acceptable results, especially for DVD and the Web.
post #1618 of 2068
Yes! That works just fine for this project. I simply adjusted as needed until they fit the NTSC DVD frame and then created and saved a Premiere Pro preset for this specific task.
Now, I can easily just paste the preset onto the clips and off I go! Thanks for the great suggestion. Now, I can easily get this project finished and go to more Christmas parties on Saturday.
post #1619 of 2068
Cool. Merry Christmas.
post #1620 of 2068
Yes, Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
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