JVC GS-TD1 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 8

The stills i took on my tx9 Look Great.At least to me and thats what counts lol

Hey, Frank,

I haven't followed your 3D progression too closely, so please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this...

With your homebrew rig, you shoot 1080i, right, because you believe it actually improves both resolution and playback smoothness? Your primary workflow to date is to take the dual streams and convert them in Vegas to 1920x1080i SbS video for playback using that mode on one of the new 3DTVs. Isn't this the same as what the JVC camera does internally when it's shooting in AVCHD 3D mode? That is, it takes the two images, converts their 1920x1080i frames to left/right 960x1080i for storage on the card. So, the end result is the same file format as you get when you edit, correct?

If so, are you saying that the image quality of what you end up with from Vegas is significantly better than what the JVC camcorder does in real time as it records? And that your real complaint about the camera is that there is no software that allows you to extract the full res (1920x1080i) frames if you shoot in Full HD 3D mode (MVC), and thus there is no way to utilize those streams in your 3D editing workflow?

If any of this is close to an accurate assessment of your thinking, the dilemma would seem to be that if you want the highest quality source footage, you have no way of editing it now. If you want to be able to edit now, you're stuck with shooting in the inferior AVCHD 3D mode. And even if you're happy with the quality of the raw full-res MVC mode, you have no idea when or if you'll be able to edit it the way you'd like, with the tools you like. Did I get that right?

I think you said you already had the Panasonic 3D video camcorder which I assume shoots in AVCHD. If so do you consider it a viable alternative to the JVC if one is limiting their shooting to AVCHD mode on the JVC? I do note that the JVC would seem to offer better low light recording with its 1.2 lens and of course the added options of being able to shoot stills, shoot time-lapse 3-D and being able to zoom to 5X would seem to be factors. In other words for someone trying to decide between getting the Panasonic which is now going for something like $800 or $900 street value or the JVC which is $1600 plus is it still a no brainer to ante up the extra bucks to get the JVC?

You got part of it right, Joe.
The only time I use AVCHD sbs as a final output is when I am posting it online as it is the easiest for people to download and view.
I save most of my video as separate LR files and occasionally use Peter Wimmer's utility to make dual stream WMV files at full resolution.
I am currently experimenting with a remote controlled vehicle carrying my 3D apparatus and it is progressing nicely.

Oops! Gotta go to see my eye doctor. I'll add more later.

OK - I just received notification from FuturePower that the JVC 3D video camcorder "has been discontinued by the manufacturer." Anyone heard anything like this from any other source?

I highly highly doubt this.The damn thing just came out.Not that i care.But doubt it.

Just got back from my ophthalmologist.
He spent almost as much time playing with my Iphone with my anaglyph glasses on then he did examining my eyes. (I let him operate R2D3)

I still hope to use the JVC for recording videos of my interaction with black bears soon. I'm hopeful that by then I will discover a way to get full editable resolution out of this thing.

If you can get the files out for editing, how do you think it will compare to your dual Canon rig in terms of image quality?

At this point it would be a guess since I have shot very little test video in that format.
What I did shoot looked very good so I expect them to compare quite favorably with the JVC winning on closeups.
On the other hand my two camera rig has a 15 power zoom vs 5 power.

Hi Everyone,

Definitely very current, in fact it's the newest thing in our line.

Chris

Hi Frank,

This is going back a ways, but I have some new info that answers your question.

The display needs to be able to see the InfoFrame data to auto detect SBS 3D. All HDMI 1.4a compliant devices use InfoFrame data to communicate to the display what 3D mode is being used. If the 3D source is not HDMI 1.4a compliant, it will not have the necessary InfoFrame data.

Chris

Thanks for that info.
Since I standardized on checkerboard instead of HDMI 1.4 I don't care much anymore.

Hello Everyone,

Now that the GS-TD1 is shipping, I wanted to follow up with some additional information on software/editing as well as a basic summary of what is possible.

First, the GS-TD1 has several recording modes. For 3D you have a choice of the following:

MVC/.mp4: This is the highest quality "Frame Packing for Interlace" Full HD 1920 x 1080 resolution. The quality is pretty amazing in my opinion, but you need to play it back from the camcorder, via HDMI. You can also archive it to a Hard Drive or a BD Disc, which can be played back by connecting that device to the GS-TD1 via USB and then connecting the GS-TD1 to your 3D Display via HDMI. You can also archive it to your computer, but you need to transfer it back to the camcorder for playback. There is currently no editing software for this. That may change, or it may not.

AVCHD/.mts: This is a small step down in quality. It is technically 960 x 1080 for each eye, or "side by side" as it is known. Going by the numbers it's a 50% drop from Full HD, but I can personally tell you I did several demos this week to very critical viewers who all told me how impressed they were with the quality. It's still stunning. I attribute that to our dual f1.2 lens/dual CMOS setup and our excellent new Falconbrid high speed processor.

In this mode, the video can be edited. It can also be burned to disc or simply recorded or copied to an SD card. That SD card can playback in certain 3D TV's. I also was able to play it back in a couple of Blu-ray players this week using an SD Card Reader to USB adapter.

Software: The software that ships with the camcorder lets you do the following:

With MVC/.mp4: You can import/backup the video to your computer and also copy it back out to the camcorder. In July an additional update is scheduled which will let you playback the video in 3D on your computer, convert the video to 3D side by side format AVCHD, and upload to You Tube in 3D.

With AVCHD/.mts: The software allows you to do basic editing, including cutting/combining and effects. It also lets you create an AVCHD disc that can be played back in almost any Blu-ray player.

Think of it this way. Once the July software update rolls out, you should be able to pretty much do all your recording in MVC/.mp4. Then, you can keep the original recording (like a 35mm Negative), as well as make an AVCHD Side by Side copy (think of it like a 35mm Print).

Alternately, many people may prefer the convenience of shooting everything in AVCHD Side by Side mode, for easiest editing, playback & sharing--knowing that the quality is still very good.

It's nice to have a choice!

Chris

It sure is!
I choose to convert the MP4 output to two left and right streams. Is this not going to be possible for some reason? If so that's interesting....hummmmm

What would be helpful for me, Frank, is if you could post a few clips in AVCHD SbS mode. That would probably give me all the information I need to decide if I want to invest in this camcorder at this time. Soon, I will have my replacement JVC RS40 and the prospect of seeing 1080 3D on it is awfully tempting.

Chris,

Can you comment on ghosting with this camcorder on the new JVC projectors (especially in SbS mode)? I've been extremely pleased with the lack of ghosting in general on the RS40. It's far better than my Samsung plasma. If ghosting is comparable, then I'll probably bite. I can edit AVCHD with Adobe, and archive the full HD footage to my servers for editing at a later time.

Any particular subject matter,settings,etc?

How about one bright nature clip (in sunlight, if you have any ) and one inside in relatively low light. I especially want to see how well it does under conditions where I'd be likely to shoot family footage. My father has some serious health problems, and it's making me more aware of the need for video of everyone. In the indoor shot, if you could zoom all the way out, that would help. I understand the wide angle setting is quite limited with the lens (42mm equivalent, IIRC). In the outdoor shot, if you could do a full range zoom, that would be revealing.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I'm also recall reading that you're using the Cineform 3D plug-in. How do you like that? I haven't upgraded. All my editing lately has been 2D, and the nVidia 450 video card makes even complex effects and transitions easy in Premiere. And I want to learn more about the Windows software for full res 3D.

Chris, to be absolutely clear, will this July software lets us extract the FULL 1920x1080 Left AND Right clips to use in editing?

We need to make 3D TV, 3D Anaglyph and 2D versions of movies. 3D Anaglyph and 2D using the current AVCH mode means de-squishing one side and blowing it up to fill a 1920x1080 frame. The amount of quality loss is not acceptable for any real use.

I spoke to Errol (?) at JVC today, who mentioned I should talk to you about this on this forum...

July is a long time off, so I think I will return the camera and buy it again when and if this new software does what I hope it does. But if it doesn't, I won't be able to return the camera then. As it is, I have 10 days to make a decision before the B&H return policy is up. Unless you have beta software for those of us early adopters.

Will the software be on the Mac? Your current software is PC only, which is a little limiting considering how much market share the Mac has in the video editing world.

While I have your attention, why did you choose interlaced formats? Is it due to the MVC storage requirements (which I know nothing of)? I was hoping this would replace our multiple dual camera rigs (including side by side and mirror rigs) for small shoots. But they are shooting 2x 1920x1080p. Unless the quality is there, the camera is just a consumer toy and not usable for real things.

Thank you! I look forward to your responses.

Jack

Will do. Will also have to wait a while for some sun.
I have Cineform Neo3D and it has a bug which still hasn't been corrected involving interlacing artifacts. In order to use it I have to deinterlace first. I'm still waiting for a fix.

It seems obvious to me that a decision has been made to cripple these consumer camcorders to protect the pro line. I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

yes, I am eager to hear Chris' response. The folks at JVC were actually very nice when I called, but referred me to this forum, and Chris, who was (evidently) the lead designer of the camera.

Hi Jack,

Glad I connected with you on line. No, I'm not the lead designer of the cam. I'm just a 21 year veteran of JVC who likes to learn about our new toys.

Having said that, the simple answer to your question is that I am sorry, but it will not let you extract the full 3D interlace video.

Having said that, I am a little bummed that you won't try it out a bit more.

The AVCHD 3D side by side mode has pretty amazing performance, and far exceeds any anaglyph 3D that I have seen. I demonstrated this for a few people this week that are involved in video on a pro level, and they were floored.

The reality is we are at the edge of a new frontier here. JVC is giving you a choice. High Quality AVCHD side by side, or High Quality +1 MVC Full HD.

The July update will let you make a single MVC recording and then convert it to side by side, so you can have the best of both worlds.

To be even more clear in how I look at it, I will say that the GS-TD1 does allow you to export very high quality images. In the AVCHD format. Please put it up against any other 3D camcorder in the side by side mode, and I think you will find it will win. In fact, I will make one further suggestion. Put a few clips on an SD card, and go down to a local HDTV retailer and put that card in a 3DTV. I personally tried this with a Panasonic Plasma and I also tried it on one of our 3D projectors. You will want to keep the camcorder if you do this. I'm that convinced. You can put video with that same quality onto an AVCHD disc, and you can also edit it if you want. And, on top of that there is an MVC recording mode that takes it up one level higher.

It does all this in a very user friendly form factor, with exceptional low light performance and a beautiful screen.

Give it a try, and then let us know what you think.

Chris

I'm confused. If we want to edit the footage, there doesn't seem to be a choice. We HAVE to use the half-resolution AVCHD file.


But I take this to mean that it will convert to the same half-resolution AVCHD? Why in the world will you guys not let us convert to two full-resolution images? What is the business decision behind crippling the output like this?



Sadly, not by a longshot. Perhaps if you mean a comparably limited single camera solution. But against a true two-camera rig (which is what we use now), there is no comparison at all. Our current 2D and 3D Anaglyph formats are true 1920x1080 30p, because we record using two 1920x1080 30p cameras. I have done a ton of experimenting with your camera, and any way you slice it, the anaglyph and 2D versions need to be de-squished and then blown up 200% to fill a 1920x1080 frame, and they look terrible. Unless there is something I am missing here?

Again, I have to ask what the justification for crippling the output on this camera is.

I realize there are some cool things you can do with the an advanced two camera rig and the right computer software. But, the GS-TD1 makes high quality 3D available in a way that is much more simple, for a much larger audience.

You need to look at a recording made with this camcorder on a current generation 3DTV. If you do that, I know you will be impressed. I can't see how anything Anaglyph could compare. Give it a try. Recording to the SD card is the easiest way to do this. Then, just take it to a local retailer. Panasonic Plasmas are a great choice as they have an SD card slot. You can also put the same files on a thumb drive and play them through most sets with a USB connection. Simply switch the TV to SBS 3D mode.

I'm also not sure how you can say the output is crippled. JVC has created the most flexible 3D camcorder solution available. Right now, the highest quality, closest-to-universal format, that can be played almost anywhere is AVCHD. We give you the ability to make 3D SBS recordings in that format. Recording in this format also makes it possible to edit.

On top of that we also give you an even higher quality mode, that gives you the first ever ability to record 3D in Full HD with a single camcorder. That method completely maxes out the current possible performance, although it is currently more limited in what you can do to play it back. As a result, we developed several ways to archive it and a method to play it back through the same camcorder. And you can convert those recordings to SBS with the next software update, which will make editing possible.

Again, most important, please try and make a 3D AVCHD recording, on an SD card, and take it to a local retailer and play it back. I am convinced you will be extremely impressed with the quality.

Chris

With all due respect, I don't think you are getting it. I am not interested in taking video and playing it back via the camera on a 3D TV. I am interested in shooting 1920x1080 3D footage, editing it as part of a multi-camera shoot, and rendering it in 3D TV, 3D Anaglyph and 2D formats, all in 1920x1080 format with no loss in quality. That is a real 3D workflow. And the camera can't do this without resorting to the half-resolution AVCHD format. That format results in terrible looking 2D footage.

It isn't all about plugging the camera into a 3D TV, and I am not sure JVC understands that.

And you still haven't answered the basic question, which I respectfully repeat here: why is it such a big deal for you (ie: JVC) to allow us to get at the 1920x1080 versions of left and right? Why fiercely defend how much we don't need that feature, when that is the one thing we are actually asking for?

just to add to my previous posting... on this thread you have 2 owners of your camera, both saying it is pretty much useless for us. Instead of JVC saying, "well, this is how you should use the camera," JVC should be listening to how we ARE using it and WHY we bought it, and try to figure out how we can be successful with this camera. We are, after all, the people who have decided to buy the camera. Perhaps your target market was grandparents who film the grandkids at Disney and watch their memories via the camcorder on a 3D TV. That's not who will most likely be actually buying this camera, however, and JVC should understand who the audience for this camera really is, and what their needs are.

Frank is going to be posting some footage soon, and it will be easy for all of us to check out the quality. From what I've seen of Frank's own original 1080i SbS material, I expect the quality of the JVC camcorder will be quite good. I just got an e-mail that my JVC RS40 projector has shipped. One of the first things I'm going to do is check out Frank's clips on it.

I'll be curious to hear what people think. We all just have to keep in mind that the issue (for me, anyhow) is frankly NOT how the footage looks on a 3D TV. 3D TVs generally use the half-resolution format, after all. The issue is how the OTHER formats look. Everything we do has to be output in 2D, 3D anaglyph and 3D TV. At the moment, 80% of the market is watching things in 2D. Of those who are interested in watching things in 3D, less than 1% have a 3D TV. So, my concern is how the footage looks at 1920x1080 NOT on a 3D TV.

Unfortunately, this means de-squishing the footage and blowing it up by 200%. No matter how you slice it, that leads to a terrible picture. I spent the day in a studio with professional lighting to make sure I was capturing footage in optimal conditions, and I still can't show any of the footage to the client because the 2D versions have such low quality. If the sets weren't trademarked (copywritten?) to the client, I'd gladly share the footage to show what I mean. I'm sure simply playing the squashed version on a 3D TV looks fine (or at least as good as any other squashed format video). That's not my primary concern, though.

It sounds as though the JVC camcorder isn't the best tool to do what you want to do - at least not at this stage of its development. In fairness to JVC, I doubt most people would purchase it with your expectations. I'd prefer easier editing options, but it's still an attractive camcorder to me.