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DTS Neo.X - Page 35

post #1021 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

If I understand correctly, Auro3D actually supports 8.0 through 15.1 channel audio for encode|decode and upmix|downmix . . . although I believe all movies to date have been mixed in the same 11.1 channel configuration. Obviously, the mixed-for-home channel count included within the Auro-encoded 5.1 or 7.1 LPCM carrier track on a Blu-ray disk is decided by the studio . . . and the maximum decode+upmix channel count (likely 9.1 or 10.1, but possibly more) is the result of a feature decision by the AVR|processor vendor. biggrin.gifeek.gifcool.gif

Right. Either way I hope when/if this technology hits the home AVR circuit that they will have the ability to apply post-processing ala PL2x and such so I can have my rears even if the original mix is "5.1" as such. Technically it should be possible as the decoder only needs the 'regular' surround channels information and not the new included height channels. It will be interesting to see how all these new audio technologies will be implemented for us at home. I can't wait to see what comes!

Some of these issues are addressed by a recent Neil Davidson post in the Dolby Atmos thread (link).
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post #1022 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post

Woof maybe you're thinkiing of DSX or PLIIZ. The TX-NR929 does high and wide in DTS NEO X. It's actually 9.2 or 11.2 with an external stereo amp.

Ducky where did you get your 929? If I wasn't otherwise preoccupied I'd probably would have replaced my Integra DTC 9.8 by now with a 929. Would love to hear more about yours. Yours is the first I've heard of in captivity.
I ordered it from Crutchfield and it arrived very quickly. I did have to use an external amp for two of the channels which are currently being powered by an old stereo Marantz receiver I had laying around. I plan to post more details about my setup along with pics once everything is finalized. I'm currently having an image issue with my new Da-Lite HC Cinema Perf screen. If I cant get it resolved a lot of changes will have to be made. Behind it I am using 4 Jamo E670 speakers for left, right, left high, and right high and a E6CEN in the middle. That meant constructing some special speaker stands. The sound quality I am getting out of this setup is beyond anything I have had thus far. I am very pleased with the Onkyo. It look a lot to decide on this unit. I read the instruction manual for the Onkyo TX-NR929, Marantz SR7008, and Pioneer Elite SC-75 before deciding on the Onkyo. In my mind the Marantz would have had better sound quality and both the Marantz and the Pioneer would have had better reliability. Lets hope Onkyo's reliability problems are in the past.
post #1023 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubberduckey View Post

....I am very pleased with the Onkyo. It look a lot to decide on this unit. I read the instruction manual for the Onkyo TX-NR929, Marantz SR7008, and Pioneer Elite SC-75 before deciding on the Onkyo. In my mind the Marantz would have had better sound quality and both the Marantz and the Pioneer would have had better reliability. Lets hope Onkyo's reliability problems are in the past.

I had an Integra that caught on fire spontaneous combustion!
post #1024 of 1226
So how goes it out there my fellow neo x'ers I just joined the club not long ago, and am enjoying what I hear. I just wish there was more than dredd and expenables 2 and step up revolution to show it all off. Its not bad in saving private ryan.
post #1025 of 1226
Let me double up that one, it sounded amazing in saving private ryan. 9 spearkers all going, and other than the center, all towers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
post #1026 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalguy View PostLet me double up that one, it sounded amazing in saving private ryan. 9 spearkers all going, and other than the center, all towers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What kind of system do you have

post #1027 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

What kind of system do you have
Well its a hybrid. lol I have the bic set up which is pl-28 for the center and 4 pl-89s . I also have a pair of klipsch klf 20 and a pair of klf 10. So after talking with a few people and thinking about it my self what I did with my 9.0 set up is this. Left and right are klf 20's. center is of course the pl-28. The side surrounds are the klf 10's. the rear surrounds and wides are the pl-89's. It sounds great. I am running it with a pioneer 1522-k. I truly do love it.
post #1028 of 1226
It appears StormAudio (link) will use CEDIA 2013 to mark the USA roll-out of its products, which include two surround processors, the 16-channel SSP 16-3D supposedly delivering DTS Neo:X 11.x processing, and the 7.4 channel SSP 7, also listing DTS Neo:X capabilities. However, the StormAudio website does not seem to list specific speaker configuration options for either one, and I don't see any user manuals, so the exact capabilities of both prepros remain nebulous!
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post #1029 of 1226
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

It appears StormAudio (link) will use CEDIA 2013 to mark the USA roll-out of its products, which include two surround processors, the 16-channel SSP 16-3D supposedly delivering DTS Neo:X 11.x processing, and the 7.4 channel SSP 7, also listing DTS Neo:X capabilities. However, the StormAudio website does not seem to list specific speaker configuration options for either one, and I don't see any user manuals, so the exact capabilities of both prepros remain nebulous!
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Storm is running their demo in Listening Room SR12 @ CEDIA..
Very, very impressive.. 🔊😳
I have their press kit, later I will try and post more specifics as I get the chance..

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
post #1030 of 1226
That SSP 16-3D looks really interesting. See if you can get an estimated price tag on that baby when you post the specifics
post #1031 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post

That SSP 16-3D looks really interesting. See if you can get an estimated price tag on that baby when you post the specifics

http://www.twice.com/articletype/news/newcomer-stormaudio-targets-luxury-market/108304
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post #1032 of 1226
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackoper View Post

That SSP 16-3D looks really interesting. See if you can get an estimated price tag on that baby when you post the specifics

Their components are pricey and targeted to compete with stuff like JBL Synthesis..
Frankly speaking the stuff sounded incredible, but I was not impressed with their industrial design..
They are targeting (2) levels of distribution, consumer and commerical/cinemas.
@ their press conference, I did talk to a technical guy @ the demo who originally was with the DTS Cinema group so they had direct access to the DTS stuff including NEO X and some other awesome IP...
I was told that the DTS Cinema Group was spun off as a separate entity now called DataSat Entertainment located in Chatsworth, CA.

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
post #1033 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

However, the StormAudio website does not seem to list specific speaker configuration options for either one, and I don't see any user manuals, so the exact capabilities of both prepros remain nebulous!
Not sure what they are offering that is so unique for the price point? Since Neo:X tops out at 11 channels, I'm guessing the remaining 5 channels of their 16-channel pre-pro can be used for bi-amping and/or subs. Are the additional outputs what people are intrigued about or does Storm Audio offer some sort of proprietary surround processing or room correction that no one else has?
post #1034 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Not sure what they are offering that is so unique for the price point? Since Neo:X tops out at 11 channels, I'm guessing the remaining 5 channels of their 16-channel pre-pro can be used for bi-amping and/or subs. Are the additional outputs what people are intrigued about or does Storm Audio offer some sort of proprietary surround processing or room correction that no one else has?

Heheh, I was thinking the exact same thing. I saw this link and went, "oh yeah! 16 outputs!"

Then I was like ... well, NEO X is 11.1 and it says it has control for up to four subs. Hmrmph. :/

But still! Sounds cool.

I was hoping for some cool new audio post processing or something but I'm not sure now. Would be interesting if there were support for a "full" 11.1 NEO-X setup with wides and then also rear heights and/or some form of overhead. I can dream. tongue.gif Honestly, I'm not sure if a derived/matrixed/algorithm-ized overhead would ever sound as good as a discrete one or more. We need stereo overhead channels at home, darnit!.
post #1035 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I'm not sure if a derived/matrixed/algorithm-ized overhead would ever sound as good as a discrete one or more.
It's not meant as a replacement for discrete channels. Height extraction is for soundtracks that don't have discrete overhead channels.

Same thing with video processors: their upconversion/interpolation/scaling will never look as good as real HD content. But that misses the point that they aren't intended to replace HD sources, but instead for content you want to watch that isn't available in HD.

And that's what surround processing is: scaling. Except instead of source pixels vs display pixels, it's number of channels being scaled to the number of speakers.
post #1036 of 1226
Interesting, Storm Audio shows the "old" NeoX with front wides/heights in full 11.x, not the "new" or soon "to be" front wides/rear wides in 11.x that showed up on the DTS site.

Storm Audio site:

Quote:
In their efforts to push the boundaries of performance in audio electronics to new levels of excellence, through technological innovation and design, StormAudio has incorporated DTS Neo:X technology to their 3D Audio and Video Surround Processors.

DTS Neo:X is a new 11.1 channel surround sound format that does not require studios to mix soundtracks specifically for the 11.1 channel sound field, but offer the possibility to do so, if desired. However, DTS Neo:X takes signals already present in either 5.1 or 7.1 channel soundtracks and creates height and wide channels that are distributed to added height and wide speakers, thus enabling a more enveloping "3D" sound listening environment. In order to experience the maximum benefit of DTS Neo:X processing, it is best to have 11 speakers, with 11 channels of amplification, and a subwoofer.

StormAudio's AV Surround Processors SSP 16-3D and SSP 7 are equipped with DTS Neo:X technology.

while on the DTS page itself

http://www.dts.com/consumers/entertainment-audio/neox.aspx#about and then http://www.dts.com/consumers/entertainment-audio/neox.aspx#product for the graphic that shows front and rear heights
post #1037 of 1226
DTS have both videos and PDFs showing the classic layout... it's the one with rear highs that seems out of place... Odd, this one...
post #1038 of 1226
Thread Starter 
Those loudspeaker placements are the same ones DTS has been pushing for a few years..
I recall their NEO X demo held down @ the Hollywood Recording Studio Lab in 2008..

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
post #1039 of 1226
It doesn't seem like a good idea to push two different placements for it if movie companies are to know how to encode for us. And it's quite annoying to everyone that has set up for DSX already and would want to run both on occasion
post #1040 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

It doesn't seem like a good idea to push two different placements for it if movie companies are to know how to encode for us. And it's quite annoying to everyone that has set up for DSX already and would want to run both on occasion

We can hope that the BDA working group charged with establishing 4KBD specifications (by the end of 2013?) will have completed the work for any new extensions to the audio component of BDs at the same time...?! Whatever we see by CES 2014 should represent the best forecast by the CEMs, content creators (film, TV, other) plus the delivery encoders (Dolby, DTS, etc) for our home theater playback configurations in the next five years or so.

If I understand correctly, the Dolby TrueHD and Auro-3D codecs both support 16 channel audio and DTS-HDMA is "unlimited" . . . but the studios are likely concerned that 'too good' audio on at home media might impact movie theater ticket revenues...?!

Edit: The Datasat RS20i audio processor implementation of Auro-3D announced for Q1 2014 (link) will apparently be limited to a max decode+upmix channel count of 13.1.

Inquiring minds want to know . . . but will probably have to wait until at least CES 2014 for any answers! eek.gifcool.gifbiggrin.gif
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Edited by SoundChex - 9/27/13 at 11:13am
post #1041 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

We can hope that the BDA working group charged with establishing 4KBD specifications (by the end of 2013?) will have completed the work for any new extensions to the audio component of BDs at the same time...?!
I do not believe that the audio formats supported by BD are changing.
Quote:
Whatever we see by CES 2014 should represent the best forecast by the CEMs, content creators (film, TV, other) plus the delivery encoders (Dolby, DTS, etc) for our home theater playback configurations in the next five years or so.
"Best forecast" is probably a good way to describe it. I'd expect some technology demonstrations will be seen at CES.
Quote:
If I understand correctly, the Dolby TrueHD and Auro-3D codecs both support 16 channel audio and DTS-HDMA is "unlimited" . . . but the studios are likely concerned that 'too good' audio on at home media might impact movie theater ticket revenues...?!
The channel limits for TrueHD are not limited by the codec specs or the BD format, but by the bitrates allowed for audio. This also applies to DTS-HD. Auro-3D is usually described as 11.1 or 13.1, so not sure it has ever claimed to support 16 channels.

IMHO the number of channels is less interesting than the delivery of object audio which will help convert the discussion of "which speakers go where" to "how can my system best accommodate expanded sound?"
post #1042 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Edit: The Datasat RS20i audio processor implementation of Auro-3D announced for Q1 2014 (link) will apparently be limited to a max decode+upmix channel count of 13.1.
Seems that is the configuration Auro-3D is using currently: (up to) 7.1 main channels + (up to) 6 height channels = 13.1 channels.

BTW, in addition to DataSat, looks like StormAudio is also licensing Auro-3D: http://www.stormaudio.com/en/technologies/3d-audio/auro-3d/
post #1043 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

It doesn't seem like a good idea to push two different placements for it if movie companies are to know how to encode for us. And it's quite annoying to everyone that has set up for DSX already and would want to run both on occasion

+1 !!, 100% agreed, as I have my 11.3 set-up "done", based on front wides/height for both DSX and NeoX scheme,
HT%252011.3%2520cover%2520off%2520Pano-b.jpg
post #1044 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Edit: The Datasat RS20i audio processor implementation of Auro-3D announced for Q1 2014 (link) will apparently be limited to a max decode+upmix channel count of 13.1.
Seems that is the configuration Auro-3D is using currently: (up to) 7.1 main channels + (up to) 6 height channels = 13.1 channels.

Not as simple as you might think...! Auro Technologies 'numbering system' started out when the Auro-3D codec had not been finalized 'beyond 11.1', but there had to be plans made for upgrading movie theaters with existing 6.1 and 7.1 configurations...

Originally:
  • 12.1(6) meant adding 5.0 heights plus VOG to a 6.1 theater
  • 12.1(7) meant adding 5.0 heights plus VOG to a 7.1 theater, and running the BL|BR speaker arrays as "dual mono"
  • 13.1(6) meant adding 6.0 heights plus VOG to a 6.1 theater
  • 13.1(7) meant adding 6.0 heights plus VOG to a 7.1 theater, and running the BL|BR speaker arrays as "dual mono"

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

Currently, some theaters outside North America are described as having Auro 15.1 configuration--which we might infer is 7.0 heights plus VOG over a 7.1 middle layer, but it remains unclear whether either or both the BL|BR or TopBL|TopBR speaker arrays are "discrete" or "dual mono, by layer". However, page 16 of the Auro-3D Octopus White Paper (link) presently reads:

Quote:
6.2 Auro-3D Octopus Codec Modes
As described in the previous chapters, the Auro-3D Octopus codec has four different operational modes:
  • Auro-3D: This ultimate mode is used to encode Aurophonic multi-channel streams, ranging from 8.0 up to 15.1, into a PCM-stream with 4 to 8 channels, depending on the selected configurations.

So I think I'll hold off guessing just what is meant by 13.1.
biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

BTW, in addition to DataSat, looks like StormAudio is also licensing Auro-3D: http://www.stormaudio.com/en/technologies/3d-audio/auro-3d/

The StormAudio processor is especially interesting here, because inclusion of the SpherAudio HeadPhones technology in the SSP 16-3D means that the DMS/StormAudio Group is already including Illusonic upmix technology in consumer marketplace products...?!
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Edited by SoundChex - 9/27/13 at 6:08pm
post #1045 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

We can hope that the BDA working group charged with establishing 4KBD specifications (by the end of 2013?) will have completed the work for any new extensions to the audio component of BDs at the same time...?!
I do not believe that the audio formats supported by BD are changing.

Unfortunate if that is the case, as improved audio could be a better selling point for 4KBD players and disks to some consumers not yet ready to again upgrade a display, but willing to consider an audio upgrade 'today'...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

IMHO the number of channels is less interesting than the delivery of object audio which will help convert the discussion of "which speakers go where" to "how can my system best accommodate expanded sound?"

Agreed, but from my admittedly limited perspective it looks likely that object based audio evolution will be influenced more by "real time" content delivery--broadcast|streaming of "live" shows and sports--and by at-home gaming, rather than by the needs of theatrical or made for TV movies...?
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Edited by SoundChex - 9/27/13 at 2:11pm
post #1046 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Unfortunate if that is the case, as improved audio could be a better selling point for 4KBD players and disks to some consumers not yet ready to again upgrade a display, but willing to consider an audio upgrade 'today'...?
BD can already carry object audio as an option in TrueHD and DTS-HD. Just that no one is ready to do it. It looks like that will occur when 4kBD issues forth because it has extra bandwidth available.
Quote:
Agreed, but from my admittedly limited perspective it looks likely that object based audio evolution will be influenced more by "real time" content delivery--broadcast|streaming of "live" shows and sports--and by at-home gaming, rather than by the needs of theatrical or made for TV movies...?
I think the first and best examples of object audio will be theatrical content on 4kBD.
post #1047 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

BD can already carry object audio as an option in TrueHD and DTS-HD. Just that no one is ready to do it. It looks like that will occur when 4kBD issues forth because it has extra bandwidth available.
I think the first and best examples of object audio will be theatrical content on 4kBD.

Roger, so what path do you envision the BDA will likely go down for UHD Blu-ray on the audio side?

9.1 channels + objects (basically, in the Dolby Atmos layout... 7.1 + stereo overhead channels for height effects and some expanded music ambiance, and optional surround channel subwoofer outputs)? Use traditional DTS-MA or Dolby TrueHD and then tack on metadata controlled object extension sound files that a software object renderer in a receiver or pre-amp will then map to the appropriate speaker locations of the consumer's choosing?

I still believe manufacturers need to rethink their newer object format ready equipment and er on the side of a modular approach. Want 7.2 or 9.2 (dependent upon the base budget level of the manufacturer's model line)? The receiver or pre-amp will work normally and the renderer will place the object sounds in the most basic speaker configuration, so you don't lose any sounds off the soundtrack. Want 11 or more speakers? Plug in a matching, outboard modular object surround format output device so you can add more amps and more speakers and surround locations to your heart's desire (and the renderer's capabilities). Isn't this (sort of) the commercial theater approach to object oriented audio formats anyway (though they don't use receivers, obviously)? The basic module will have RCA outputs and the more sophisticated ones will add balanced XLR outs or some other slim line, balanced pro-connector. Up to a pre-determined output amount of the manufacturer's choosing. With Atmos, the max. is 64.
Edited by Dan Hitchman - 9/28/13 at 8:12am
post #1048 of 1226
Eh... How many Blu Rays are encoded in NEO X?

1?
post #1049 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Eh... How many Blu Rays are encoded in NEO X?

1?
3, but what does that have to do with anything? Like asking how many BDs are encoded with PLIIx or PLIIz or Auro-3D.

Neo:X is surround processing, intended to be used with unencoded sources. That doesn't change just because one studio decided to matrix heights & wides into 3 of its home video releases.

You gonna ask Curt how many BDs are encoded with Trinnov remapping?
post #1050 of 1226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

I still believe manufacturers need to rethink their newer object format ready equipment and er on the side of a modular approach. Want 7.2 or 9.2 (dependent upon the base budget level of the manufacturer's model line)? The receiver or pre-amp will work normally and the renderer will place the object sounds in the most basic speaker configuration, so you don't lose any sounds off the soundtrack. Want 11 or more speakers? Plug in a matching, outboard modular object surround format output device so you can add more amps and more speakers and surround locations to your heart's desire (and the renderer's capabilities). Isn't this (sort of) the commercial theater approach to object oriented audio formats anyway (though they don't use receivers, obviously)? The basic module will have RCA outputs and the more sophisticated ones will add balanced XLR outs or some other slim line, balanced pro-connector. Up to a pre-determined output amount of the manufacturer's choosing. With Atmos, the max. is 64.

Basic module 8 channels - matches what we have today. Each additional module, another 8 channels ( no one except the extreem enthusiasts will ever buy more than one, already 8 channels is more than WAF will allow for the majority of the population anyway... ).
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