DTS Neo.X - Page 5

"Last Action Hero" in SDDS-8, anyone?



AJ

While my post was intended address the question of "conserving' discreteness', it's likely that "Last Action Hero" (not the worst movie ever, although I seem to recall it featured in the Razzies the year it was released . . . 6 Nominations, No "Wins") will be remembered most for showcasing "Hollywood couple" Arnold Schwarzenegger and Maria Shriver!

Dolby 70mm Six Track films in formats 40, 41, and 44, as well as all SDDS-8 films, have five screen channels: L/LC/C/RC/R. However, you could certainly argue that L/R channels in that configuration do not truly correspond to FWL/FWR channels in a front wide configuration.

AJ

The DTS-HDMA Encoder User Manual seems to indicate that 7.1_Front-Wide was fully implemented as an encode option (although I have no personal experience as to whether the software capabilities mirror the DTS-HDMA Encoder User Manual 'promises'...!?) Plus, it seems to me that there is conceptually not much difference between downmixing the (say) 20 on-stage miked tracks from a concert to produce the L|C|R stems for a 5.1_Standard mix vs the LW|L|C|R|RW stems for use in a 7.1_Front_Wide mix. Unless the is some reason not to remix the concert audio...?

No. The decoder knows the difference between Lc/Rc and Lw/Rw, and will not rescramble the signals to use the 5 available speakers. It will play the SDDS Lc/Rc channels thru L/C/R same as any other 5.1 system.

Pioneer's DTS Neo:X equipped SC-LX85 AVR includes appropriately labelled (full 11) sets of both pre-outs and speaker terminals, although the AVR is described as 9.x. Hopefully this indicates that the owner can attach all 11 speakers, and choose between several "9 speaker" configurations on a movie-by-movie basis...?

Are there going to be in the future or is there work going on currently on DTS HD MA movies Soundtrack which includes Discrete Soundtrack for Front Height, Front Wide Channels which can be used in DTS Neo X ?

Thanks,

Rana

Hi Rana,

I have no information regarding what DTS is working on, but if there were to be a revision to DTS-HD master audio to increase the number of discrete channel (and if the Blu-ray standards were also expanded to accommodate more than 8 channels) there would be no need for DTS Neo:X surround processing to be used.

There is an analogous situation today for 7.1 content. I use Dolby Pro Logic IIx surround processing as a listening mode preset on my preamplifier. When the preamplifier receives a 5.1 DTS-HD master audio source, Dolby ProLogic IIx is invoked to derive the surround back channels. However, when the preamplifier receives a 7.1 DTS-HD master audio source, Dolby ProLogic IIx is turned off, that is there is no need for it since the extra channels are being provided. The same would be true for DTS Neo:X. If the extra channels were being provided in the source there would be no need for Neo to be used.

Larry

Hi Rana,

I have no information regarding what DTS is working on, but if there were to be a revision to DTS-HD master audio to increase the number of discrete channel (and if the Blu-ray standards were also expanded to accommodate more than 8 channels) there would be no need for DTS Neo:X surround processing to be used.

There is an analogous situation today for 7.1 content. I use Dolby Pro Logic IIx surround processing as a listening mode preset on my preamplifier. When the preamplifier receives a 5.1 DTS-HD master audio source, Dolby Pro Logic IIx is invoked to derive the surround back channels. However, when the preamplifier receives a 7.1 DTS-HD master audio source, Dolby Pro Logic IIx is turned off, that is there is no need for it since the extra channels are being provided. The same would be true for DTS Neo:X. If the extra channels were being provided in the source there would be no need for Neo to be used.

Larry

You still seem to be confusing different technologies. Neo:X is matrix surround processing that extracts height and wide information. As Larry pointed out, there would be no need to use Neo:X if the soundtrack already has discrete height and wide channels.

As for content, the answer hasn't changed since you asked the same question two weeks ago:
No.

hi larry & sdurani,

thanks for the nice explanation. I understand this better now. I thought DTS Neo X was a format.

But if i have understood you correctly then.....

- Currently a Bluray Disc can only hold 8 channels.

If there's going to be Discrete Front Height & Front Wide channels then there will have to be a new version of the Blu-ray Disc.

Hence...

There will have to be a new version to a Blu-ray player which can De-code the newer Blu-ray Disc which has more than 8 channels.

Hence...

There will have to be new AVRs which can accept/decode more than 8 channels.

Am i correct ?

Thanks

Yes. Didn't we just straighten this out a couple weeks back:

Yes.

Not necessarily. BD can carry more channels than 8 if the spec is changed.

New discs would be compatible with existing players and AVRs. And existing players could output the additional channels via bitstream mode to new AVRs. If you want PCM from the player, then a new player will be needed that can decode the new channels.

Only if you want to hear the additional channels. That will be true whether the method is discrete or Neo:X.

Hi M Code;
I see you are testing Neo:X. Thought this would be a good place to ask what your 9.2 speaker layout is. There must be a range and optimum location for the height and wide speakers on this. Neither the Onkyo nr1009 or the DTS site explain speaker location for Neo:X 9.2, that I can see?
I'm guessing they gave you some info. on this for your test setup.

Thanks
Terry

Hi Roger,

Since you indicated here that you now have a 1009, so would it be possible to have some feed-back on your first impressions concerning DTS Neo X?

Many thanks in advance.

Hugo

+1

m dying to read a review of the NEO X.

Also on how it fares against DSX and IIz.

Can't even find any professional reviews of the 1009 or NEO X yet...

He gave some feed-back here:
Hopefully Roger can elaborate further, with a more detailed impression.

That same post has more of my thoughts about the improvements of Neo:X over Neo:6 within the confines of 7.1. Just today I am running in 9.1 so have not done enough yet to report any impressions.

What I would like to know, is will there be any Neo:X-equipped recievers with 11 amplified channels available in the near term?


Onkyo 5009, perhaps?

Although any "Neo:X 11.x capable" AVR would presumably also function in all the usual configurations from 2.0 up to 11.x, there would be 'some' weight/size and manufacturing cost penalty over a similar AVR limited (just) to the three different 9.x speaker configurations . . . and I have to wonder how many additional unit sales the extra (11.x) functionality would deliver, based on the real current year consumer demand for a "Neo:X 11.x capable" AVR...?!

Good excuse for the industry to start using more digital amplification. Remember those pancake-thin receivers from Panasonic?

Is DTS Neo X going to blow away Audyssey DSX and Dolby IIz ?

No.

In my opinion, DSX is more detrimental than useful, tilting the front/rear balance forward and adding extra bass; and Neo:X is not as good as PLIIx for existing content -- narrow surround effect and weird timbral changes to certain instruments.

This is when using wide speakers in a 9.1 setup. I have not tried height speakers yet.

An as yet untapped capability of Neo:X and to a lesser extent PLIIz is the ability to encode specific height/width cues and recover them. This is something DSX cannot do. Until someone makes such newfangled soundtracks, we won't know if that blows away anything, or just blows.

Does anyone know HOW the extra channels are matrixed onto the 7 channels on the media if it is Neo:X encoded?

I have a couple of stand-alone matrix decoders not currently in use that I could imagine hooking onto the pre-outs and decode these channels myself...

Yes, I'm well aware of that... but the standard has to be set since there's already a receiver on the market and more coming out soonish... And even if the encoders are not yet for sale/in use - the function of them has to be fixed already...

So the question is... which channels are supplying what to generate Front wide and Front high?

( Please give me some leeway languagewise, I'm not an english native. )

Yes, the standard has been set. But since it is proprietary, DTS are under no obligation to reveal how it works.

Sure, if they don't tell there's not much we can do, especially if they've done it so complicated we cannot reverse-engineer it. But as it's supposed to be able to do something even with non-encoded material, it's bound to be logically tied to the information in the nearest channels, right?

But I guess I'm way too early with my questions... It's just that my current receiver is dead and I would like to buy something that exists now, not in 3 or 8 months from now... and as I believe Neo:X having a big chance of becoming a standard to reckon with during the lifespan of my next receiver, it would be a good thing if I could find out now, that I can find a way to decode it even if what I have to buy can't do it on it's own... (Onkyo 1009 is missing other things I want, so it's not an option. And no one can tell if Denon will make Neo:X available to 4311 by way of firmware upgrade. Pioneer LX-85 might be something to wait for, but I worry about the new classD amps in it and I'd much rather get something with Audyssey XT32&Pro capabilities...)

I suspect it would be wise to assume that the content of ALL (non LFE) input channels plays some part in the computation process that delivers the 'added' output channels, whether the content of the input channel is itself modified ('steered') by the DTS Neo:X expansion process, or not modified (as might be the case for the L|C|R channels...?)