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Official 70"+ LCD thread - Page 41

post #1201 of 1421
@Aaron, the very few TVs Mitsubishi is selling are mostly the 73s, which are a super bargain and won't be affected. the 92s are still significantly larger. As for their 82, yes, it will be hurt by the Sharp. And the Sharp clearly expands the 80" market to people who wouldn't consider projection, so it's definitely a benefit in that regard.

@irkuck, you are reading way too much into that article. That said, the 70" Sharp shipped fairly soon after CES last year. I suspect they can repeat that this coming year and would be "due". I just think you are presuming a lot. First of all, I doubt Sharp has much of any idea what actual ship dates are this far out. Second of all, I'm sure they didn't telegraph that to some blog.

I personally think the 732 Sharp offers a better picture than the 60" 63x series, although those observations are based on looking at them at retail. And yet as I've said before, I think the 732 is not videophile quality. So if you are like zzoo, you're unlikely to find a larger -- perhaps slightly less good picture -- to be very satisfying.
post #1202 of 1421
Thanks for the thoughts rogo.

I too need to get working on getting that Elite... There's a 70" for $6k delivered that has my name on it. Somewhere. I'm sure of it
post #1203 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSallday View Post

yea a 80 inch is very tempting...I currently have the 70, and it is great size...but the 80 is not that much bigger

It's actually 30% bigger.

http://tvsizecalculator.com/

I also have a 70 inch, and get a heck of a lot of enjoyment out of it. I'm holding off judgement on this one until I see it in person. I may or may not be interested. This time I'm holding off a bit to see what else Sharp has up their sleeve. If not this year, next year.
post #1204 of 1421
Agreed, rockaway, it's hugely bigger. The logistics of transporting these things get a lot more challenging as you get bigger; I wonder what the packaging for this is going to be like.
post #1205 of 1421
Rogo, I had no problem bringing my 70 inch home with the help of a friend and his pickup. However, I wouldn't even consider it with an 80 inch. This beast is a delivery only item in my mind. I'm thinking if the TV is 30% larger than the 70, the box will be at least that much larger.

ABT is showing the shipping weight at 150lbs. The weight isn't much at all, all things considered. But the size of the box will cry out for a real truck I'm sure. I wouldn't want to lay it down in the bed of even a lage pickup. I would want it standing up and strapped to the side boards, or strapped to an oversized skid standing upright.
post #1206 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockaway1836 View Post

Rogo, I had no problem bringing my 70 inch home with the help of a friend and his pickup. However, I wouldn't even consider it with an 80 inch. This beast is a delivery only item in my mind. I'm thinking if the TV is 30% larger than the 70, the box will be at least that much larger.

ABT is showing the shipping weight at 150lbs. The weight isn't much at all, all things considered. But the size of the box will cry out for a real truck I'm sure. I wouldn't want to lay it down in the bed of even a lage pickup. I would want it standing up and strapped to the side boards, or strapped to an oversized skid standing upright.

Right, one thing that's different with the jumbo LCD is actually how light it is. My 50" plasma has a shipping weight of nearly 130 lbs. A lot of that is in the overengineered stand, but it's also true that the backplane and frame are much more overbuilt than what you get today. I don't mean that to say "they don't build 'em like they used to". Lighter is better. It's cheaper to transport. It's a good thing.

But that said, giant, relatively light pieces of glass are not going to be all that easy to move around safely without breakage. There is, in fact, some evidence that Samsung went too far on easing up packaging on at least some of their plasmas recently and that led to the internal glass breaking in transport. Even with more rigid materials in current models -- and I'm not convinced the materials are more rigid than what they used to use -- the torsional stresses are going be severe.

I'm sure the power that be are aware of the challenges here, but the risks of damage probably increase with a formula that's something like the square of the area of the glass. So caution will be the watchword going forward.
post #1207 of 1421
I'm going to an open house at my distributor on Thursday. They said they will have the 80" on display. It's supposed to have an msrp of $4999
post #1208 of 1421
I saw the 80" today. I couldn't believe they had it. Obviously, not on the level of the Elite, but pretty damn nice for $5K! It's unbelievably big. Jeez, it's movie theater like. I mean huge. For sheer impressive size, a 70" doesn't even come close (I can't believe I just said that, lol). The color was very nice, but it was not calibrated and I had no remote. The blacks were what you'd expect and the viewing angle wasn't too bad. I couldn't really see if this set had the dark corners defect or not. There was a lot of noise, but again that could probably be minimized with tweaking. Overall, I'm very impressed. I'm still probably going to get an Elite, but still pretty nifty!
post #1209 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiff69 View Post

I saw the 80" today. I couldn't believe they had it. Obviously, not on the level of the Elite, but pretty damn nice for $5K! It's unbelievably big. Jeez, it's movie theater like. I mean huge. For sheer impressive size, a 70" doesn't even come close (I can't believe I just said that, lol). The color was very nice, but it was not calibrated and I had no remote. The blacks were what you'd expect and the viewing angle wasn't too bad. I couldn't really see if this set had the dark corners defect or not. There was a lot of noise, but again that could probably be minimized with tweaking. Overall, I'm very impressed. I'm still probably going to get an Elite, but still pretty nifty!

I too live in So. CaL. AND WONDER WHERE you saw the 80. I saw that Pac Sales had them for much less but would not be displaying them. Sure would like to see the 80. Also, is there an avsforum for these?
post #1210 of 1421
spiff come on no pics !!!!!!
post #1211 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzook View Post

spiff come on no pics !!!!!!

I thought about it. I'm sorry. I let the team down .

It's at Video and Audio Center in Santa Monica for anyone else around here.
post #1212 of 1421
Thread Starter 
On more serious note, economics of the Sharp 80 incher is puzzling. How many units they may expect to be sold in N. America? Low tens of thousands??? If this is the case, it would be all in all small production series and small amount of money involved. How they can make profit on this?

I can imagine this is possible only by some kind of improvement in manufacturing which allows flexible and efficient mixing of LCD formats using same glass sheets, e.g. normal production run of e.g. 8x46" is mixed with insertion of some sheets with 2x80". Then overall efficiency is still high with negligible overhead made by the 80". The cost of making 80" panel would be then almost like making 4x40". For making this possible, Sharp would need to have flexible equipment e.g. projectors and masks that can be changed very fast.
post #1213 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

On more serious note, economics of the Sharp 80 incher is puzzling. How many units they may expect to be sold in N. America? Low tens of thousands??? If this is the case, it would be all in all small production series and small amount of money involved. How they can make profit on this?

Yes, low five-figures period. I doubt they'll do 100K in 12 months and if they do, it might be very very hard to repeat that in the subsequent 12 months.
Quote:


I can imagine this is possible only by some kind of improvement in manufacturing which allows flexible and efficient mixing of LCD formats using same glass sheets, e.g. normal production run of e.g. 8x46" is mixed with insertion of some sheets with 2x80". Then overall efficiency is still high with negligible overhead made by the 80". The cost of making 80" panel would be then almost like making 4x40". For making this possible, Sharp would need to have flexible equipment e.g. projectors and masks that can be changed very fast.

I'm pretty sure I just saw a flock of angels peel open the heavens. I've been trying to explain to you for the better part of a year. What I suspect they do, for what it's worth, is run all the 80s for the month at once. Then the 80s don't run the rest of the month and 40s are subbed in place of them. Rinse, repeat.

If the glass is patterned "wide", I'm pretty sure you can make 80-40 across the 2500 edge and then do that again. so you are pulling 4 x 40 off the sheet with 2 x 80. It looks like it can make 3 x 4 if it's making just 40s, or 12 total panels or 2 x 80 (in lieu of 8 of the 40s) and still make 4, 40" panels. That's tight on the "stub" piece, so perhaps it's not being cut that way and the remainder is making 2 x something else (like 46s).

Of course, you'll still explain that they can't pattern the glass differently at the same time, I'm sure, or ignore this part of the discussion, or whatever.

Regardless, yes, they are pursuing a small market. Since 4 x 40 panels is worth ~$1000 at the "panel stage" and 1 x 80 is worth, well, more, I think they've concluded that continuing to own the large-screen segment is worth it -- and they might turn a small profit on this model to boot.

The other companies can laugh all they want, but basically right now no one else can mass produce a 65" LCD, let alone larger. Someone is kicking ass and taking names.
post #1214 of 1421
My Sharp Professional Display rep said they'll have 92" available within the year. At 92", now we're talking replacing video projectors with an LCD display in a home theater that would typically require a projector. The question is whether or not they'll come out with that in a Quattron and with 3D capability. If so... I'm down with it!
post #1215 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

So now it buoys down to whether irkuck is right or Sharp is right on huge sizes including 80". I'll put my money on the latter as that's where their money and their mouth is

It's ironic Irkuck that you started a 70"+ thread but don't believe in it

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post20929655

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm pretty sure I just saw a flock of angels peel open the heavens. I've been trying to explain to you for the better part of a year.

Finally he gets it

So NOW you realise Sharp is calling your bluff Irkuck? While I believe in progressive upgrade to around 80", which is essentially what Sharp is saying with their $ and strategy, you don't think there will be a sizable market for huge size. >70" will eventually be made in 10G as well, no doubt about it.

Will be interesting to see Sharp's 2Q end Sept cash earnings coming soon, since I've been saying I believe they have been selling 732 for more or less cash cost. I would expect their EBITDA margin for large size display to be <10% maybe 5% blended with other profitable products.
post #1216 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by digital_dilemma View Post

My Sharp Professional Display rep said they'll have 92" available within the year. At 92", now we're talking replacing video projectors with an LCD display in a home theater that would typically require a projector. The question is whether or not they'll come out with that in a Quattron and with 3D capability. If so... I'm down with it!

Let's see how many capricious boys replace these big guys just for he hell of it, he.he...
post #1217 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes, low five-figures period. I doubt they'll do 100K in 12 months and if they do, it might be very very hard to repeat that in the subsequent 12 months.
I'm pretty sure I just saw a flock of angels peel open the heavens. I've been trying to explain to you for the better part of a year. What I suspect they do, for what it's worth, is run all the 80s for the month at once. Then the 80s don't run the rest of the month and 40s are subbed in place of them. Rinse, repeat.

If the glass is patterned "wide", I'm pretty sure you can make 80-40 across the 2500 edge and then do that again. so you are pulling 4 x 40 off the sheet with 2 x 80. It looks like it can make 3 x 4 if it's making just 40s, or 12 total panels or 2 x 80 (in lieu of 8 of the 40s) and still make 4, 40" panels. That's tight on the "stub" piece, so perhaps it's not being cut that way and the remainder is making 2 x something else (like 46s). Of course, you'll still explain that they can't pattern the glass differently at the same time, I'm sure, or ignore this part of the discussion, or whatever.

I still doubt very much different panel sizes on a single glass sheet. But mixing the glass sheets with different panels on them seems feasible. However, it is highly nontrivial as it requires equipment which can be speedily retuned to different panel sizes.

In any case we are talking about very small number of 80" panels produced. It is puzzling how they can make profits on such small runs.
post #1218 of 1421
Before Sharp's 70" they say it will be small number for >70".

I said as long as it is >1% of market it is not considered small as that will be more than RPTV/ home projectors sold.

So here we're back to square one again: What is your definition of very small number?

PS BTW I don't think the size can be infinitely larger, but again around 80" sounds good fit for a city dweller.
post #1219 of 1421
Does anyone have any inside information on if a 80" 240hz with 3d capabilities is in the works? I am torn between the 735u, d8000, or hx929 however wouldn't be much of a choice if I could pick this up for $5500 and it have 3d capability.
post #1220 of 1421
Ron....seriously doubt that an 80" 3D version could be had for $5,500 any time soon.
post #1221 of 1421
My friendly parrots,

I could care less about 3D, but I honestly want someone to deliver beautiful blacks in a large screen environment.

Currently, even the 70 inch Sharp disappoints me. The crop of LCD's coming out though, (Elite, Sony HX929), are showing LCD muscle.

Here's to hoping next year we can see something in that train of thought.
post #1222 of 1421
talkingparrots? um ok......

if you want beautiful blacks right now, look at the Elite or the VT30
I cant see technology making enough of a quantum leap for a long time beyond what we have at these sizes and prices. Sure the 55inch oled looks promising but thats next year... always next year
post #1223 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzook View Post

talkingparrots? um ok......

if you want beautiful blacks right now, look at the Elite or the VT30
I cant see technology making enough of a quantum leap for a long time beyond what we have at these sizes and prices. Sure the 55inch oled looks promising but thats next year... always next year

This is why I'm sitting out of the race at the moment. I know if I bought a set like this, I would sit on it for 5-7 years. Next year will show improved black levels, possibly 3D, and a calvacade of new inputs (Thunderbolt?). I want to buy in now, but the technology hasn't matured yet. Besides the technology exists, CE companies want to milk us for every cent we have.

I also wouldn't mind buying a 92 inch model as well. However, as soon as the 92 inch comes into production, the race to the first 100 inch TV will begin. I am loving this new era of bigger is better.



Squawkk!
post #1224 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by digital_dilemma View Post

My Sharp Professional Display rep said they'll have 92" available within the year. At 92", now we're talking replacing video projectors with an LCD display in a home theater that would typically require a projector. The question is whether or not they'll come out with that in a Quattron and with 3D capability. If so... I'm down with it!

Did you ask him any thing else? I am interested in black levels. If this performs on par with a Sony HX929, I'm all in.
post #1225 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by talkingparrots View Post

My friendly parrots,

I could care less about 3D, but I honestly want someone to deliver beautiful blacks in a large screen environment.

Currently, even the 70 inch Sharp disappoints me. The crop of LCD's coming out though, (Elite, Sony HX929), are showing LCD muscle.

Here's to hoping next year we can see something in that train of thought.

I spent a good amount of time staring at the 70" Elite yesterday at Magnolia (a real one, standalone, not the Mag-lite inside a BB). Gorgeous picture overall. Sharp even gave them a special demo disc to show it off, which really showed the incredible blacks to great effect.

Unfortunately, it suddenly became obvious to me why all the hi-def offroad motorcycle footage was in a beautiful slow-motion: These LCDs still handle motion like, well, an LCD. Read: ******. Not as bad as some I've seen, to be sure, but nowhere near the fluid motion you see on Plasma or CRT. They did their best to hide this in the demo disc with smooth, gorgeous slow movements and heavy use of slo-mo, but you could still see it in spots when they couldn't avoid something in the video moving just a smidge too fast.

LCD has pretty much caught up with Plasma and CRT in every respect, save this one issue. But that one issue is pretty important to me, and will likely keep me in the Plasma camp for my next screen, as much as I really want to like the LCD for the other benefits they provide.
post #1226 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzook View Post

talkingparrots? um ok......

if you want beautiful blacks right now, look at the Elite or the VT30
I cant see technology making enough of a quantum leap for a long time beyond what we have at these sizes and prices. Sure the 55inch oled looks promising but thats next year... always next year

I've seen the HX929 next to a new Elite 70 (yes, it was a retail display), and unless the Elite was that poorly tuned, the HX929 produced way better blacks.
In fact it matched the best plasma they had at the Magnolia store.

Just a humble opinion so no flames please.
post #1227 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by easysoul View Post

I've seen the HX929 next to a new Elite 70 (yes, it was a retail display), and unless the Elite was that poorly tuned, the HX929 produced way better blacks.
In fact it matched the best plasma they had at the Magnolia store.

Just a humble opinion so no flames please.

While I have not seen them side-by-side, I have to wonder if something was set incorrectly on the Elite you saw.

You can't get blacker than "off", which is why local dimming is so effective (as long as halos are under control).
post #1228 of 1421
Problem with local dimming are 1.halo and 2. Loss of details which are the 2 extremes of the same technical problem.

VE shootout is coming soon this weekend so I suggest we wait to see what the experts say.
post #1229 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Before Sharp's 70" they say it will be small number for >70". I said as long as it is >1% of market it is not considered small as that will be more than RPTV/ home projectors sold. So here we're back to square one again: What is your definition of very small number?
PS BTW I don't think the size can be infinitely larger, but again around 80" sounds good fit for a city dweller.

Low tens of thousands sounds very small, no? If the 80" and bigger will initiate trend towards replacement of RPTV/PJ than indeed this is legitimate market. Regarding the overall market for the monster TVs I think it is getting exponentially smaller vs. size increasing. This is due to the dominance factor:
huge TV tends to dominate sitting room and people do not like it, especially wifis. Then there is question of content, BR is fine but regular TV on a monster screen is not best due to artefacts and type of content (like mosnter size talking heads).
post #1230 of 1421
Yes tens of thousands will be considered small. Even Pioneer KRP shipped 500k. The difference between you and me is that I think it will GROW to millions. Just like the 70" will be in millions. but they will only be single digit % of global TV market. So are >60" TVs are single % of TVs. Hence it depends on what you mean by small. IMHO if it is >1% market it is not a small market. It is big enough to be a sizable niche.

Projectors been doing 80-100" for a long time with SD. So I don't think it is something that is a major hurdle. As discussed way back, WAF is a possible issue, and wall / elevator size, logistics etc will be main consideration. Which is why I think around 80" should be quite max for a city dweller.

Nonetheless I have always been saying in the 4k thread that for 4K resolution to be successful, huge TV has to be deemed potentially pretty mainstream. But unlikely vice versa. Look at PC monitors and you can track how the resolution will progressively evolve.

As for why Sharp is launching an 80" without even letting 70" simmers, it is likely because they are using the 80" to take up the 8G capacity used to produce Apple's iphone and tablet. Like we discussed, it is a good hedge against single customer risk and "possibly" 80" is a good cut mixed with small/medium size.
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