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Official 70"+ LCD thread - Page 15

post #421 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrTAPOUT View Post

Can someone tell me if this set has flashlight and clouding problems like the samsungs and how the black level holds up in dim lighting? Thanks!

The set shouldn't have flashlighting or clouding problems since it uses full array backlighting. Edge lit sets seem to have those problems if design/quality control is screwed up.
post #422 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Sharp has a chance to improve its fortunes with the 70", the question is how deep is the market for it? With price being no essential barrier this is a problem of how many people want to have monster TVs?
The question I ask is "who wouldn't want a larger TV?" I don't consider 70" to be a 'monster' size, it is just big relative to what has been commonly available. What movie or sports fan would not love to watch a larger, more immersive image? Most people spend several hours a day looking at a screen that is a mere fraction of their field of view. Depending on where you sit, even a 70" image occupies perhaps 15% of your field of vision. I think the issue boils down to price and availability - the only large sets available until now were bulky rear-projection sets that were not comparable on a brightness or image basis with plasma/LCD/LED's. It looks as though Sharp may finally have broken through this barrier. I applaud their effort to finally market a truly large flat-panel display at a price that is within reach of most videophiles. Produce them, price them right, market them correctly, and make them available - and the consumers will be there.
post #423 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohrbaughra View Post
The question I ask is "who wouldn't want a larger TV?" I don't consider 70" to be a 'monster' size, it is just big relative to what has been commonly available. What movie or sports fan would not love to watch a larger, more immersive image? Most people spend several hours a day looking at a screen that is a mere fraction of their field of view. Depending on where you sit, even a 70" image occupies perhaps 15% of your field of vision. I think the issue boils down to price and availability - the only large sets available until now were bulky rear-projection sets that were not comparable on a brightness or image basis with plasma/LCD/LED's. It looks as though Sharp may finally have broken through this barrier. I applaud their effort to finally market a truly large flat-panel display at a price that is within reach of most videophiles. Produce them, price them right, market them correctly, and make them available - and the consumers will be there.

Crux of the matter Ã*s how much size matters.
Imagine experiment: in a shop all TVs from 40" to 70" have prices in limited range, say 1000-1500 bucks, so price is not a factor really. Would all people buy only 70"? Or what would be the percentage of those buying 70"?
post #424 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
Crux of the matter Ã*s how much size matters.
Imagine experiment: in a shop all TVs from 40" to 70" have prices in limited range, say 1000-1500 bucks, so price is not a factor really. Would all people buy only 70"? Or what would be the percentage of those buying 70"?
I think most people would initially "balk" at the 70", because being the largest relative to size, people tend to judge items based on relativism and would tend to pick something "in the middle range" (just like cars or anything else), and of course the fact that larger means more expensive. Now, if larger TV's were commonly available - say up to 120" - I think the same rule would apply and most people would go for the 70". I seem to recall that a wise man once pointed out - "no one who has a TV wished they had bought a smaller one". Eventually, of course, there will be a saturation point (90"?, 100"?) when the TV image occupies a satisfactory field of view. So when really big TV's become available/affordable (currently a pipe dream), 70" will seem tame.
post #425 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohrbaughra View Post

I think most people would initially "balk" at the 70", because being the largest relative to size, people tend to judge items based on relativism and would tend to pick something "in the middle range" (just like cars or anything else), and of course the fact that larger means more expensive. Now, if larger TV's were commonly available - say up to 120" - I think the same rule would apply and most people would go for the 70". I seem to recall that a wise man once pointed out - "no one who has a TV wished they had bought a smaller one". Eventually, of course, there will be a saturation point (90"?, 100"?) when the TV image occupies a satisfactory field of view. So when really big TV's become available/affordable (currently a pipe dream), 70" will seem tame.

I guess I'm not a middle of the road kind of guy. I just bought one of the Sharp 70's, I'm moving up from a 60" RPTV. The RPTV was my first HD TV and I never for an instant regretted getting what was the largest available at the time. It's a pretty big room, so size matters. If there was an 80" of comparable value I would have gone for that.

Above 80"? Maybe 80" is big enough for my room. I'd like to be able to choose; hopefully by the time I'm ready to upgrade again I'll have that luxury.
post #426 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohrbaughra View Post

I think most people would initially "balk" at the 70", because being the largest relative to size, people tend to judge items based on relativism and would tend to pick something "in the middle range" (just like cars or anything else), and of course the fact that larger means more expensive. Now, if larger TV's were commonly available - say up to 120" - I think the same rule would apply and most people would go for the 70". I seem to recall that a wise man once pointed out - "no one who has a TV wished they had bought a smaller one". Eventually, of course, there will be a saturation point (90"?, 100"?) when the TV image occupies a satisfactory field of view. So when really big TV's become available/affordable (currently a pipe dream), 70" will seem tame.

Relativism seems to be indeed a factor. In the old times of CRT, typical current 55" TV would look shockingly big, now it is well within the range of normal. On the other hand, at certain point a big TV would become biggest item at home and so it would be dominating - people may not like this in their living quarters. Then a very big display would be seen belonging more to a dedicated home theater space. There, 100" or more TV would be most welcome. But home theater gear is only small part of the overall market.

One can thus think that 70" is not far from the saturation point for mass users.

In any case, with the 70" barrier broken, one can be optimistic that any saturation point will be reached within the next couple of years. LCD may thus start taking on the home projector segment. This leads us to question what is the range of typical home projector screens? 80-100" ???
post #427 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

In any case, with the 70" barrier broken, one can be optimistic that any saturation point will be reached within the next couple of years. LCD may thus start taking on the home projector segment. This leads us to question what is the range of typical home projector screens? 80-100" ???

80" would be close to my ideal size, having seen my nephew's 82" Mitsubishi DLP (unfortunately PQ is not stellar). With the 70" SXRD I have now, I still yearn for a bit more square footage. For example, we were watching the broadcast of "Transformers" last Sunday, and during the action scenes I was thinking, "that looks OK, but if the display was only a little bigger..."
post #428 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

They are practically zero. But 10G LCD plant cost many billions so the expense is significant. Nobody else besides Sharp committed to 10G, even Samsung balked. According to recent rumors Sharp wants to built another 10G plant in China.

If they are even contemplating another plant, I'd have to argue they are more sanguine about the ROI than you (and they clearly have info we lack). As for the billions of yen already spent, it's spent. Sunk cost. It has really nothing to do with anything other than to say: If they are pricing this low in spite of having sunk billions, again, they are believers in what they are doing. They are not pricing low because they sunk billions given they can now manufacture something no one else on earth can manufacture in volume.
post #429 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

If they are even contemplating another plant, I'd have to argue they are more sanguine about the ROI than you (and they clearly have info we lack). As for the billions of yen already spent, it's spent. Sunk cost. It has really nothing to do with anything other than to say: If they are pricing this low in spite of having sunk billions, again, they are believers in what they are doing. They are not pricing low because they sunk billions given they can now manufacture something no one else on earth can manufacture in volume.

Their 10G plant was operational quite a time ago but Sharp was not doing well
vs. major competitors and according to reports the plant was running much under capacity. I would rather think they moved to 70" under pressure and desperation. Obviously they are betting it will be a success but that depends on the market readiness for big sizes. They need to sell in large quantities but there is a danger the market is saturated quickly. Nobody knows size of the market for this product.
post #430 of 1421
I know this might not be in everyone's price range but i think id put it out there...this may or may not be coming out but there is hope....sm hope.

http://www.techyglobe.com/news/panas...-tv/#more-5693
post #431 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cambotwist View Post

I know this might not be in everyone's price range but i think id put it out there...this may or may not be coming out but there is hope....sm hope.

http://www.techyglobe.com/news/panas...-tv/#more-5693

Yeah, here the question is price. Panasonic can sell you now 103" and 150" plasmas... if you are sheikh, oligarch, mogul, Great Leader, or just a billionaire .

If they have 85" for mere mortals it will be second stage of a race initiated by the Sharp 70".
post #432 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by cambotwist View Post

I know this might not be in everyone's price range but i think id put it out there...this may or may not be coming out but there is hope....sm hope.

http://www.techyglobe.com/news/panas...-tv/#more-5693

Panny has had the 85" in their commercial lineup for at least 2 years. Lowest price I've seen is around $17K. I expect them to sell something in the 70" size as a consumer set next year with a slight chance of late this year.
post #433 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

Panny has had the 85" in their commercial lineup for at least 2 years. Lowest price I've seen is around $17K. I expect them to sell something in the 70" size as a consumer set next year with a slight chance of late this year.

They better be quick. Their 65" consumer plasmas are loosing appeal with Sharp 70" in shops.
post #434 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

They better be quick. Their 65" consumer plasmas are loosing appeal with Sharp 70" in shops.

I agree. I hope they come out with a 70" this year and announce it SOON. I want to be able to choose between technologies for a 70" set.
post #435 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Their 10G plant was operational quite a time ago but Sharp was not doing well
vs. major competitors and according to reports the plant was running much under capacity. I would rather think they moved to 70" under pressure and desperation. Obviously they are betting it will be a success but that depends on the market readiness for big sizes. They need to sell in large quantities but there is a danger the market is saturated quickly. Nobody knows size of the market for this product.

Just out of curiosity I pulled up Sharp's 2010 Annual Report. According to this document LCD panel supply is tight world-wide and will be through 2011, they have just completed an expansion at Sakai to 72,000 panels per month and have signed an agreement to expand with production in China. The have also gotten into production of LEDs fro LED backlighting.

From the report:

"Sharp Display Products Corporation (SDP)*1 makes these
LCD panels at a state-of-the-art plant in GREEN FRONT SAKAI.
The initial input capacity of the plant when operations began in
October 2009 was 36,000 glass substrates per month, but we
doubled this to 72,000 units per month in July 2010 to meet
the booming demand for high-performance LCD panels.
The plant is the first in the world to employ 10th genera-
tion glass substrates. In addition to LCD TVs, we aim to
develop the market for super-size LCD products larger than 60
inches, such as digital signage displays."

In 2009 Sharp lost money, but of course with the recession a lot of companies did. Otherwise they seemed to be profitable and expanding. Of course their business model is very capital intensive, so their profitability will tend to be subject to the business cycle.
post #436 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by cambotwist View Post

I know this might not be in everyone's price range but i think id put it out there...this may or may not be coming out but there is hope....sm hope.

http://www.techyglobe.com/news/panas...-tv/#more-5693

It is always nice to hear about companies marketing large displays. But what is even better is when a large display is marketed that the average A/V enthusiast can afford. Although 85" would be close to what I would consider the ideal size, we can only imagine the price that Panasonic is going to ask. At this moment, there is only one player in the affordable, quality large flat panel display, and that is Sharp. We keep hearing about LG, Vizio, Samsung, etc., but talk is cheap. Until other manufacturers address the needs of "real" people, I am willing to sacrifice 15" to save $20K (or whatever) to buy other goods such as food, clothing, transportation, and shelter.
post #437 of 1421
The 85-inch commerical model has been in my Costco for a year for $17,000. I imagine the plan is to make the consumer model available at something around $12,000.
post #438 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
The 85-inch commerical model has been in my Costco for a year for $17,000. I imagine the plan is to make the consumer model available at something around $12,000.
In the LCD area, anything bigger than 70" must have steep cost increase. Reason is Sharp can pack two columns of 70" on a single sheet of glass of the 10G plant, but no bigger. They can pack in a single column though, so one could expect that the steepness can be reduced and they could produce 80"+ LCD for 3x 70" price, that is below $10K. 4-digit price for 80"+ LCD would be psychologically very attractive for hardcore videophiles.
post #439 of 1421
If the 85" Panny comes in below $8k, I'll buy it sight unseen. Above that price point and it gets hard to justify. I think for a 80"+ flat panel the target price to get relatively large adoption would be below $6000
post #440 of 1421
Anything above 80" I think the comparable will be projectors. So price point must be comparable to those setups for them to gain traction.

In any case though I still think max size for city dwellers are about 80". Anything above that and moving up in lifts or stairs, transport, wall size, etc would be increasingly difficult.
post #441 of 1421
I should throw in anecdotally -- again -- we have ~15 feet to the couch and even a 70, I don't know. Forget all the silly THX/ISF/whatever recommendations, I'm talking "giant thing in my living room.

My wife and I are planning to upgrade our TV sometime in the near future, but I'd say 70 is the absolute cap and that I'm contemplating 60 and 65 very seriously. There is no chance at all we'd put in an 80, even if it existed. I'm something of a videophile and really enjoy the bigger screen for sports and movies. If "people like me" are balking at 70 inches, there's a cap to how many people won't balk. I don't think any of us know what the cap is, but for the foreseeable future, the 65-and-up market is limited to <10% anyway, due to production.
post #442 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I should throw in anecdotally -- again -- we have ~15 feet to the couch and even a 70, I don't know. Forget all the silly THX/ISF/whatever recommendations, I'm talking "giant thing in my living room.

My wife and I are planning to upgrade our TV sometime in the near future, but I'd say 70 is the absolute cap and that I'm contemplating 60 and 65 very seriously. There is no chance at all we'd put in an 80, even if it existed. I'm something of a videophile and really enjoy the bigger screen for sports and movies. If "people like me" are balking at 70 inches, there's a cap to how many people won't balk. I don't think any of us know what the cap is, but for the foreseeable future, the 65-and-up market is limited to <10% anyway, due to production.

I've had a 70" and went down to a 60" and it sucks. 80" - 85" and I'll be ok till I can roll the screen on the wall. I sit 14' from eyeballs to screen and when I mount it on the wall it's going to be 17'.

If the giant thing is on the wall, then it can be covered quite easily and it's no problem. I think more of us want large screens than you think and I know John Q public will follow if size , price , and form factors are combined. The form factor issue is huge.

But really, the market will bear this out in the next few years. We are just along for the ride.
post #443 of 1421
I remember how much interest the never released Visio generated last year - it was supposed to be 72 inch and $3500 MSRP. So here we have this Sharp - a little smaller and a little cheaper. I wonder how many people waiting for Vizio are jumping on this Sharp now.
post #444 of 1421
So what 65" and up led lcd are out now? My mom needs a new tv and im trying to help her. I was just going to wait for the sharp 70" full led 3d lcd. But she maybe doesnt need 3d

So the sharp LC-70LE732U is a non 3d led lcd? That may work for her. Who has it in stock? Sears? Cleveland plasma?

Trying to get her something ordered today.

Already sold my 67" 2d lam based sam dlp which i could have given her. Have a 67" 3d ready led sam dlp which i use in basement mostly for gsming. Wouldnt give her thst unless i csn replace with an equally big or bigger 3d tv which looks like the sam 65c8000 which i have and the oana 65 plasma are still the biggest flat screen 3dtvs. Not worth getting her a mitsu dlp.

Could maybe give her my sam 61" 3d ready led dlp im not using. That might be best bet. And she needs a new receiver.

Tempted to get her the sharp non 3d 70" though.
post #445 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatre View Post

So what 65" and up led lcd are out now? My mom needs a new tv and im trying to help her. I was just going to wait for the sharp 70" full led 3d lcd. But she maybe doesnt need 3d

So the sharp LC-70LE732U is a non 3d led lcd? That may work for her. Who has it in stock? Sears? Cleveland plasma?

Trying to get her something ordered today.

Already sold my 67" 2d lam based sam dlp which i could have given her. Have a 67" 3d ready led sam dlp which i use in basement mostly for gsming. Wouldnt give her thst unless i csn replace with an equally big or bigger 3d tv which looks like the sam 65c8000 which i have and the oana 65 plasma are still the biggest flat screen 3dtvs. Not worth getting her a mitsu dlp.

Could maybe give her my sam 61" 3d ready led dlp im not using. That might be best bet. And she needs a new receiver.

Tempted to get her the sharp non 3d 70" though.

Both Sears and Cleavland Plasma have the Sharp. The only 65 that I know of being out right now is the Vizio. It is a passive 3D set. That's available at Costco and I think Cleavland Plasma has it also
post #446 of 1421
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I should throw in anecdotally -- again -- we have ~15 feet to the couch and even a 70, I don't know. Forget all the silly THX/ISF/whatever recommendations, I'm talking "giant thing in my living room.

My wife and I are planning to upgrade our TV sometime in the near future, but I'd say 70 is the absolute cap and that I'm contemplating 60 and 65 very seriously. There is no chance at all we'd put in an 80, even if it existed. I'm something of a videophile and really enjoy the bigger screen for sports and movies. If "people like me" are balking at 70 inches, there's a cap to how many people won't balk. I don't think any of us know what the cap is, but for the foreseeable future, the 65-and-up market is limited to <10% anyway, due to production.


So as far as I see, the reason for the cap is domination. Too big glass is dwarfing everything around. There is also question of content. Watching talking heads on monster display does not sound atractive. On the other hand huge display is very attractive in dedicated home theater environment.

In any case, Sharp is breaking a barrier. Times ago 65" was monster TV, now is in the upper range of normal. If Sharp floods the market, 70" becomes normal. This is only 10" from 80" to become normal in the future.
post #447 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

So as far as I see, the reason for the cap is domination. Too big glass is dwarfing everything around. There is also question of content. Watching talking heads on monster display does not sound atractive. On the other hand huge display is very attractive in dedicated home theater environment.

In any case, Sharp is breaking a barrier. Times ago 65" was monster TV, now is in the upper range of normal. If Sharp floods the market, 70" becomes normal. This is only 10" from 80" to become normal in the future.

Yes, this Sharp is a boundary breaker, which I think is fantastic. Per Dean above, please don't take this personally, but I'm not underestimated John Q Public at all. People will in fact buy very big TVs. The people that do will represent a small fraction of the market for years to come.

I'm not really sure why we keep having the debate, but again the plasma numbers from Panasonic speak for themselves. The borderline indifference of Samsung and LG -- the world's two largest LCD makers -- in even delivering 65-inch sets speaks for itself.

If we want to keep discussing this, perhaps it's useful to ask questions like: Do you think 5% of the market will be 65 inch+ this year? (Answer: not a chance. Do you think it will reach 10% next year? (No, but that's not entirely impossible).

Some of the comments seem to imply that most people want giant TVs and will buy them. And those comments, well, are wrong. There is a ton of market research done at these companies and none of it is telling them half of homes will be an affordable 80-inch TV.

People -- on average -- don't want a gigantic piece of glass dominating their living rooms. That doesn't mean you don't want one. Or that there's a single thing wrong with you wanting them. But let's get real, projectors are insanely affordable and virtually no one owns them because most people just don't want them (for scores of reasons). Gigantic TVs are certainly going to be more popular than home projectors, but by more than an order of magnitude? No.

I will safely state here for posterity: By 2015, the U.S. sales mix of 65+ inch TVs will still be comfortably below 20%. It's likely it will also remain below 10%. Very likely.
post #448 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes, this Sharp is a boundary breaker, which I think is fantastic. Per Dean above, please don't take this personally, but I'm not underestimated John Q Public at all. People will in fact buy very big TVs. The people that do will represent a small fraction of the market for years to come.

I'm not really sure why we keep having the debate, but again the plasma numbers from Panasonic speak for themselves. The borderline indifference of Samsung and LG -- the world's two largest LCD makers -- in even delivering 65-inch sets speaks for itself.

If we want to keep discussing this, perhaps it's useful to ask questions like: Do you think 5% of the market will be 65 inch+ this year? (Answer: not a chance. Do you think it will reach 10% next year? (No, but that's not entirely impossible).

Some of the comments seem to imply that most people want giant TVs and will buy them. And those comments, well, are wrong. There is a ton of market research done at these companies and none of it is telling them half of homes will be an affordable 80-inch TV.

People -- on average -- don't want a gigantic piece of glass dominating their living rooms. That doesn't mean you don't want one. Or that there's a single thing wrong with you wanting them. But let's get real, projectors are insanely affordable and virtually no one owns them because most people just don't want them (for scores of reasons). Gigantic TVs are certainly going to be more popular than home projectors, but by more than an order of magnitude? No.

I will safely state here for posterity: By 2015, the U.S. sales mix of 65+ inch TVs will still be comfortably below 20%. It's likely it will also remain below 10%. Very likely.


We are still in a recession so people are not as free with their money as they might be.

There are a lot dlp rear projectors out there in service larger than 70". Some are legacy, some quite new. In 2011 73" will be the smallest set Mits will sell. I have owned a number of rear projectors Sammy, HP, Mits at 56", 65", 72", my current main set is 82". I sit 14" feet away and will be going to a 92" later this year. 24K posts does not make you the world expert on what is or should be. Before you go on a big anti-rear projection rant, I own all kinds of displays, plasma, led, lcd and dlp. The dlps always end up being my primary as they are they seem to always be the only technology in what I consider a reasonable size that working class stiffs can afford.
post #449 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I will safely state here for posterity: By 2015, the U.S. sales mix of 65+ inch TVs will still be comfortably below 20%. It's likely it will also remain below 10%. Very likely.

No offence but this statement is like saying OLED TV will be below 10% market in 2015. This is actually a very "safe" statement.

In 5 years time I won't be surprised if 70" is $2000 (using $5000 MSRP as ref for 2011 as you are aware I think $3000 is a mispricing) or less as depreciation for sharp's 10G fab falls off and efficiency increases, but volume will still not be large relatively unless more 10G fab are in operation by then. As of now we don't see capex for that yet though lots of talk.

To have 80" markets we need >10G fabs. I think to speculate about 80" markets now is irrelevant, and a guess on my part based on physical constraints and what looks practical or feasible to me. However focusing on 70" will be observable in the next 12 months and the trend and acceptance level will tell us the market for these huge TV. IMHO if 70" volumes exceed 1% of market or >DLP or projector market is a good indication that the notion of people dislike DLP because of size is incorrect. There are other obvious reasons. Human greed and following the Joneses psyche is what I observe as common across cultures, if they can afford it and it's not too inconvenient, and there's no rules against it

This of course is subject to production volume. And unfortunately as of now there are talks that Sharp is cutting down production due to NF3 gas shortage from the earthquake.
post #450 of 1421
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockaway1836

Both Sears and Cleavland Plasma have the Sharp. The only 65 that I know of being out right now is the Vizio. It is a passive 3D set. That's available at Costco and I think Cleavland Plasma has it also
So still no 3d set larger then 65" it seems. I have sam 65c8000. 65d8000 seems nowhere to be found but I think will come out later this year and probabky a little sooner in the year then the 65c8000 which came out at the end of 2010. But being it just did i think they thought it woud be too soon for the 65d8000 to come out just a few months after the 65c8000 so possibly purposely delayed it?

Got a sharp 70" 732 for my mom today from sears (they just got, was the only one they had, was going to go on display and then therefore not for sale which doesnt make sense because they said they think most sears only got 1 or 2).

Will get 10% off it by bringing receipt in may 1st when they have a sale. Best buy claimed they had 200 in their local warehouse in stock but wouldnt match the 10% off sears price saying that their price was already 10% off the msrp which BB still had it listed for. Best buy delivery is free while sears is 69.99 but worth 69.99 more to save the 10% which is way more then $70.

I still dont believe best buy has any because everyone here has said only sears and cleveland plasma.

Also what wall mount is anyone with a sharp LC-70LE732U using?
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