feel duped, now I need a new sub! - Page 2

Good luck with your F12. Our living room is about like yours, slightly larger than yours but also opens directly into the kitchen and dining room. We also have Monitor 60's and a CS2 with M50 surrounds running on a Denon790.

I've had four subs. Last year I bought the BIC F12 and spent several months trying to make it sound right. It does have a solid bottom end, but it is boomy and inarticulate. I sold it after four months and bought a Klipsch Sub-12 from the Egg for about 250. I think Amazon lists it for 300. It is by far a much better sub.

There is a lengthy "official F12" thread here on AVS, and I am not the only one who has found it to be somewhat disappointing. It's mostly F12 fans posting in that thread, but still makes a good read. Here is a list of threads in which I've posted regarding subs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1260531 (Klipsch)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1287114 ($200 sub)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1116093 (F12 thread)

also http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...e#post15554460

Let us know how it goes please.

I have a BIC F12 and thought it was pretty darn good for only $180. I do recognize that it is not very accurate for music and can not fill my room as much as I would like. I have a Rythmik F15 on the way... but will no doubt keep the BIC as it is a pretty good sub for what you are paying. Just keep your expectations in perspective.

I wouldn't believe all the crap they dish out at BB, have the time the guys there just know key phrases, but not what they actually mean. In these days, you have to check the specs and learn a little bit before you pull the trigger.

The Klipsch Sub-12 may sound great and I too was attracted by the price I saw, the only problem is that the amp is not that reliable in the Sub-10 and Sub-12 models. Google "Klipsch Sub-12 Amp Problems" and see what I mean. Klipsch cut corners on the design and don't seem to care that much quality control on their lower line of subs.

Not to diss Klipsch, I would love to drop some money on a high end sub from them, its just out of my price range right now.

I will have to agree with others that the F12 with its 5 year(amp and driver) warranty is a great bargain. I hope to scale up eventually to a HSU sub eventually after I enjoy my F12.

The PSW-10 is a major POS. Don't waste your money. You need a pretty good sub for that space.

What do you guys think on the Polk PSW505? I got it from NewEgg when it was on sale for only $200. Would that be something you'd recommend for that price? I want to recommend it but I don't know how it compares.

Well at least ya got to bug the neighbors a bit with your new sub, so that's definitely a good sign.

Congrats on getting the F12.

Most Polk subs aren't very good. I've owned 2 and I was underwhelmed to say the least. I would go with an ID company. You get a hell of a lot more sub for your $ than the brands that are sold in B & M stores.

I haven't seen anyone recommend Polk subs compared to others.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-4-2005.html

Polk 505 - pretty solid bass to 40-35 Hz.

If you want music and HT, Hsu STF-2 (<$400). The STF-2 plays to 25 Hz.

35 Hz rolloff is embarrassing for a sub of that price. There is a lot of content that digs much deeper in today's movie soundtracks. There is a whole passel of subs out there that will spank it for less.

I see... I would think so too if it weren't for the $200 deal. For it's original price, I agree - not that impressive. But yeah, probably a few better ones for the price. Thanks guys. There should be a sticky Pol sub deterrent or something, lol.

I have nothing for or against Polk subs but the PSW505 can be had for $229 shipped, my guess is it could compare with its competitors.

Shame there isn't a shootout (or at least 3rd party stats) for subs that some folks on a budget would buy - this and the Dayton SUB-120, Lava LSP10, PA-120 and BIC F12 all less than $250 - so those could make an informed decision.

I would to see that shootout, between the Bic F12 and the Polk PSW505.

I was on the fence between the two. The PSW505 is like 199 at newegg right now. It seems awfully tempting with its 300 watt amp, compared to the 150 watt amp on the F12, but I hear amp rating doesn't necessarily equate to power and high performance, there are other factors involved.

What sucks is that you can't hear a Bic F12 sub, since they are ID, so you have to take it by word of mouth that it's supposed to be good. Thankfully a lot of people have backed it up.

But as others have said, Polk isn't known for their subs and after hearing a sub from a packaged RM 6750 set(which I ended up returning because it was terrible) the sub was much worse than my really old htib sony passive sub.

The bass from the polk sub was really loose and almost droned up all the low frequencies into a big mess with no separation or tightness. There were occasional moments when tightness and extension happened, by my sony passive sub trumped it by picking up way more low end detail and actually delivered oomph to explosions, etc..

That kind of put a sour taste in my mouth about Polk subs which is why I leaned more towards the F12.

As an owner of both the PSW505 and the PSW10, I'd definitely recommend the F12 over the 505 based only on what I've read about it and my experience w/the 505. I bought the 10 thinking it was good enough, but wanted more and bought the 505 in upgrading my HT from a 10+ year old system w/o a sub. It's OK for a budget sub, but the lack of depth and presence in a rather large room (15x20) is rather dissapointing. During dynamic LFE at the low end or w/some music, the sub completely loses composure. I've now spent $300+ that I could have applied towards a decent sub if I wasn't trying to be so cheap

Also, NewEgg ratings and reviews can be deceiving

I've learned not to trust them when it comes to audio though, lol.

I think the biggest problem with newegg and even reviews from people across the web including avs forum is the difference in level of expectation. Let's be honest, how many have heard a 1k - 3k audiophile level subwoofer?

I would guess that most people haven't heard subs on that level, so when they finally hear something like the Bic F12 or PSW505, which is a substantial step above the cheap HTIB subs, they are blown away and easily satiated.

I knew when I bought the F12 that I wasn't going to get audiophile level performance out of it, but I knew it would be a huge step up from the garbage HTIB subs which I've dealt with.

As for those newegg reviews, you can anticipate that a big percentage of reviews are from people that don't know what a high end sub sounds like. So their excitement comes from having no other level of reference to compare to. So you can interpret those reviews in light of that observation. The other thing is that everyone has a different set of trained ears, some of us, coming from no audio experience, to others who have audiophile ears.

The people who complain about the F12 here, I actually commend in some ways, for having a high level of expectation. Their suggestions for better subs are things that I keep in the back of my mind when I consider a future upgrade. But the ones who complain that a 183 sub doesn't sound like an high end audiophile sub, well yeah, you're going to have to spend more to get more.

In the end, I think we are all looking for that sweetspot, where price and performance meet to give the best value.

Totally agree - while I've been into audio for 20+ years (installed car audio competition systems in the early 90's), the WAF factor has kept me from going all out in the house but my expectations are pretty high. We've been married for over 9 years and I finally decided that she can deal w/it (+ I turn the sub down when I'm not listening to it) :-P

It's all a matter of perspective I guess - if I hadn't heard quality sound before I wouldn't know any better and would probably be more than happy w/mediocrity. In reading reviews, for me, there's a mental thing going on w/if it's good enough for all of these folks it'll probably be good enough for me too. In this day of age where I rarely buy stuff at B&M shops, those reviews can definitely skew my judgement where it's so hard to get the same choices locally...not to mention the price.

I'm somewhat in the same situation now trying to find a replacement for the PSW505, as I know I want to go w/an ID company but don't have the opportunity to listen to one - all I have is the experiences shared here, and I've been bitten twice w/that (PSW10 and PSW505). I'm debating b/w the Hsu VTF-15H, Epik Empire, CHT18.1, and eD A7S-450 and understand they're supposed to be in a completely different league but have no idea what any of them sound like. I don't want to derail the thread, but just wanted to agree that having to buy things online definitely presents challenges for the more discerning consumer.

BIC isn't really specifically ID.

For dealers, call:

877-558-4BIC

Thanks for the info about Bic's Dealers, I guess I got the wrong idea about ID. I've never seen any of the products in stores and it seems like more people buy their stuff online. I guess I have to go to a dealer in my area, I'm guessing a specialty audio store to hear their stuff.

Clevatl, I'm glad someone agrees with me about that! I must have read a hundred different reviews when I was hunting for my sub. Newegg was especially hard to sort through because everyone who posts there is so enthusiastic about sharing their gear joy. Part of me was skeptical, I had to dig around on places like avsforum before I ran into the more seasoned audiophiles who gave it straight.

Btw, your choices for sub upgrades looks impressive and I think you'll probably notice a more substantial difference in sound quality. I have my eyes on a HSU for my future upgrade, but I want to enjoy my F12 first.

From what it sounds like, the F12 and PSW505 are pretty comparable, so I don't think you missed out on too much.

Techappy - I think your post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post19861248 was right on and very well stated. I think that for many if not most owners of F12's it is their first real sub after stepping up from a HTIB or lesser sub (ahem, Polk) and may be the best thing they've ever heard. As I've said in the F12 thread, there are notes that I know are there but the F12 just does not produce them. The fanboys blame it not being "not set up properly", as though it were my first sub.

Actually I ended up with the F12 after reading bad reviews on a Polk I was interested in. I am aware of the Klipsch amp problem and prepared to deal with that if the time ever comes. I know there are also better subs but I can't spend four figures on a single piece of equipment. In the meantime the sound is adequate for my needs. I hope you are satisfied with your F12 and I feel fairly certain that you will soon move up to something a little better.

Thanks Rob, I'm looking forward to getting my F12 next week. I will definitely share my thoughts on it once I break it in a little.

Sound is such a subjective thing that anything having to do with speakers can be so easily misinterpreted depending on whose ears heard what. So don't be surprised if I start complaining about the F12's limitations too and take a beating in the forums . Although I think I know what I signed up for by getting the F12 and am okay with it, although temporarily, until upgraditis hits me .

If I was smarter and a little more patient, I would have saved up some more and waited to get a HSU and jumped onto the higher plateau altogether.

But I'll save that for a sequel...