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Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 36

post #1051 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Why should your ability to get a MC-12HD at "a lower price point" be Lexicon's concern? By and large, those who can afford to pay MSRP (which is obviously Lexicon's target customer) for a new Lexicon processor probably aren't overly concerned about what the eventual resale value will be on their previous Lexicon processor, which means that the used market really isn't going to have a huge impact on their bottom line (losing customers because future resale value isn't great). Lexicon cares about selling new product, not how the eBay, Audiogon, and Craig's List market is doing. They should be focusing on what they're currently selling and whatever future products they're working on along with sales of those products. One can probably make an argument that whatever went wrong with the MP20 combined with silence ever since about a processor to eventually replace the MC-12HD may affect the success of their future processor assuming it eventually ships. But I suspect that if they deliver a solid feature set and a high quality product as they've traditionally done they'll do just fine.

What they are currently selling seems to only be car related audio, and a digital amp. As far as future products um what would that be? Anything? Are they now only a car audio company? See that is the problem with silence combined with not producing anything in a very long time. We have no idea what they are doing.

At this rate they are eroding their loyal fan base and alot of people have already moved on due to their silence and the lack of ability to say anything

Does anyone honestly think complete and utter silence right now is a GOOD strategy? Are people really trying to argue that thing are A OK at Lexicon? I'm pretty befuddled at people's attempt to make excuses for Lexicon at this point, what purpose does letting everyone think you are out of the pre\pro business do if you actually are still planning on producing pre\pro products in the future?
post #1052 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post

Does anyone honestly think complete and utter silence right now is a GOOD strategy?
Lexicon does. Not because they woke up one day and arbitrarily decided it would be the best strategy for them, but because they tried the other approach and got burned. As mentioned multiple times in this thread, the new Lexicon found out the hard way why the old Lexicon didn't saying anything until the product was ready to ship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post

I'm angry at Lexicon and want to express that.
Everyone needs a hobby. But the more you explain about your rants, the less they make sense. For example, why would you want to give your hard earned money to a company that you're angry with? Makes about as much sense as declaring Lexicon completely dead AND wanting to hear some reassurance that they're alive, at the same time. For all their past knowledge base, I doubt that even they know how to be alive and dead simultaneously.
post #1053 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post


Does anyone honestly think complete and utter silence right now is a GOOD strategy? Are people really trying to argue that thing are A OK at Lexicon? I'm pretty befuddled at people's attempt to make excuses for Lexicon at this point, what purpose does letting everyone think you are out of the pre\pro business do if you actually are still planning on producing pre\pro products in the future?

I can't speak for everyone here but the way I see it, no one knows what Lexicon's goals are. Will they stop making SSPs, redesign, delayed release of a new SSP??? Nobody here has the definitive answer, so how could we even comment on a strategy? For all we know, there is no strategy by Lexicon.

As an analogy, what goes through one's mind if wanting a little action and his wife says, "I have a headache tonight. No thanks".

1. Does she have a brain tumor?
2. How can she say that? That's not a very good strategy for that new kitchen she wants...
3. Is there someone else?
4. Is she torturing me for the fun of it?
5. Does she genuinely have a headache and is not up for things?

My ridiculous analogy above illustrates that only she knows the reason why she's not up for things. Lexicon only knows what their story is as well. So all you can do is wait until they send out a press release rather than critique and guess at their reasons for silence - which accomplishes nothing towards your hoping for an even lower priced MC-12.
post #1054 of 1296
Guys, there is no "Lexicon." There is only Harman. They release products under different brands depending on market, features of the products and price points. So there is no such thing as "JBL giving up on Lexicon." Think of Toyota and Lexus brand.
post #1055 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I can't speak for everyone here but the way I see it, no one knows what Lexicon's goals are.
Goal #1 = make money.

Not sure about the rest of their goals though. biggrin.gif

Cue the "you can't make money if you don't come out with a new SSP" rant. biggrin.gif
post #1056 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

My ridiculous analogy above illustrates
I think many of us now have a sense why you went into dentistry and not marketing biggrin.gif
post #1057 of 1296
That's like saying "there is no Buick (Chevrolet, etc), only GM".

In principle, as went Oldsmobile, so can go Lexicon, not that I expect that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Guys, there is no "Lexicon." There is only Harman. They release products under different brands depending on market, features of the products and price points. So there is no such thing as "JBL giving up on Lexicon." Think of Toyota and Lexus brand.
post #1058 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Guys, there is no "Lexicon." There is only Harman. They release products under different brands depending on market, features of the products and price points. So there is no such thing as "JBL giving up on Lexicon." Think of Toyota and Lexus brand.

So is the Lexicon brand simply a car audio supplier now? Inquiring minds want to know.
post #1059 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post

So is the Lexicon brand simply a car audio supplier now? Inquiring minds want to know.
Perhaps a look at the products listed on their website would give you an answer. rolleyes.gif They still consider the MC-12HD a current product and have several amplifiers in their lineup (and the Lumagen stuff). Yes, it's pretty sparse, but they've never had an exactly diverse product lineup. They obviously need to come out with a replacement for the MC-12HD at some point, but I think everyone posting in this thread understands that so there's no need to keep rehashing it over and OVER and O-V-E-R again.
post #1060 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post

So is the Lexicon brand simply a car audio supplier now? Inquiring minds want to know.
No. It is a luxury *audio* brand of Harman, one step below Mark Levinson. The low-end brand is Harman Kardon for example. My car analogy wasn't meant to be taken literally smile.gif. That said, the Lexicon brand is used that way there. Same group designs all car audio but then depending on the customer (OEM) and price point/performance different brands are put on it.
post #1061 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No. It is a luxury *audio* brand of Harman, one step below Mark Levinson. The low-end brand is Harman Kardon for example. My car analogy wasn't meant to be taken literally smile.gif. That said, the Lexicon brand is used that way there. Same group designs all car audio but then depending on the customer (OEM) and price point/performance different brands are put on it.

So have yourself and others that have better internal contact at Lexicon informed them that there is a portion of customers that are seriously wondering what is going on with the Lexicon brand?

I mean they can't be surprised that former and current loyal Lexicon owners have noticed that their product delivery in the last few years has dwindled to practically nothing on the Home audio side?

I honestly just think a simple straight forward statement even if it is vague concerning the near future of Lexicon would go along way to help us understand this future path. At this point a simple "Yes we are still home" statement would be something of a revelation compared to silence. And why is asking for something like this deemed such a big deal? Are things really that messed up at Lexicon that they can't communicate to the public anymore?
post #1062 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post

So have yourself and others that have better internal contact at Lexicon informed them that there is a portion of customers that are seriously wondering what is going on with the Lexicon brand?
I mean they can't be surprised that former and current loyal Lexicon owners have noticed that their product delivery in the last few years has dwindled to practically nothing on the Home audio side?
I honestly just think a simple straight forward statement even if it is vague concerning the near future of Lexicon would go along way to help us understand this future path. At this point a simple "Yes we are still home" statement would be something of a revelation compared to silence. And why is asking for something like this deemed such a big deal? Are things really that messed up at Lexicon that they can't communicate to the public anymore?
In the past, they NEVER, EVER said anything about a new product until inventory was pretty much on the delivery truck headed to the dealers. Unless my memory is faulty, the MP-20 was the first time they announced something well before it was ready and that announcement obviously backfired. What good is it going to do if they announce "we're not dead yet and are still working on stuff but don't have any dates or products to announce at this time"? It's patently obvious that they must be working on a MC-12HD replacement as the MC-12HD platform is ancient at this point.
post #1063 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post

So have yourself and others that have better internal contact at Lexicon informed them that there is a portion of customers that are seriously wondering what is going on with the Lexicon brand?
I have. I monitor this thread and share the sentiments with them from time to time. I don't think there is a point made here that is lost on them. As has been noted though, this time around their policy is to say nothing. I realize this creates another set of issues as you mention. But that is the best path I believe given the history.
Quote:
I mean they can't be surprised that former and current loyal Lexicon owners have noticed that their product delivery in the last few years has dwindled to practically nothing on the Home audio side?
I honestly just think a simple straight forward statement even if it is vague concerning the near future of Lexicon would go along way to help us understand this future path. At this point a simple "Yes we are still home" statement would be something of a revelation compared to silence. And why is asking for something like this deemed such a big deal? Are things really that messed up at Lexicon that they can't communicate to the public anymore?
As I have noted and others have just the same, the Lexicon brand is alive and being used for new products such as the DD-8 amplifier. That product is becoming very successful. Two other companies are actually selling the same unit under their brand now! So there should be not be a worry there. But I suspect you are concerned about future processors. On that front, they understand that they are losing goodwill of customers. Both on cancelling the old product and not delivering on new. They have simply made the call to say nothing until they have something.

Personally, I am both a customer and part of their distribution channel. So I am disappointed as the rest of you are in cancellation of the last processor and absence of announcement of new. As the rest of you, I like to see a new processor from them. I remain hopeful that they will do something. That is as far as what I will say in public smile.gif.
post #1064 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

In the past, they NEVER, EVER said anything about a new product until inventory was pretty much on the delivery truck headed to the dealers. Unless my memory is faulty, the MP-20 was the first time they announced something well before it was ready and that announcement obviously backfired. What good is it going to do if they announce "we're not dead yet and are still working on stuff but don't have any dates or products to announce at this time"? It's patently obvious that they must be working on a MC-12HD replacement as the MC-12HD platform is ancient at this point.

I'm not even talking about an actual product release at this point, a simple "Yes Lexicon is still in the home audio business and we are still currently developing home audio products for the future" would suffice.

The good it does is let the community in general know they are still alive, it has been 10 months since they pulled the MP-20 and we have not heard ANYTHING from them in anyway shape or form. Just look at this thread the CES that it refers to was a couple of years ago and this thread is still going because they are not saying anything to anyone. And their home audio product output has NEVER been this barren before it is a real cause of concern, JBL has never NOT used a Lexicon Pro\Pro for their Synthesis line this is also a recent development that raises serious questions about any new type of pre\pro from Lexicon.

Why is it so difficult to conceive of the idea that Lexicon is currently giving off the image to the general public that they are dead and maybe it is a good idea to simply communicate a vague idea of future plans?
post #1065 of 1296
No doubt Lexicon marches to a different drummer than most. Take another "high end" brand, Cary Audio, for example. They came out with an all-new surround processor (Cinema 11) and it was full of problems, but within months they announced a newer version (Cinema 12) that supposedly fixed the first problems and added features (I don't know, after the Cinema 11 I wanted nothing more to do with them). This from a company that had zero experience with digital sound or multichannel even, compared to Lexicon who has long been an industry leader in the field. But whether they did it right or not, Cary retained their reputation for being open and responsive to their customers, something Lexicon seems to not even care about. I guess it's just Lexicon's style, but I admit that at least when they put out a product it works, something I can't say about Cary's Cinema 11. I just cannot understand why if the MP20 problems were in the video why they didn't just release an audio-only model (with HDMI audio support and video pass through switching like the MC12HD) so at least their customers could have SOTA audio (and hopefully at a more real-world price). They could have packaged it with the Lumagen VP and that would satisfy 90% of their customers.
post #1066 of 1296
Both Carys are disasters. Cary is a disaster.

Lexicon, if they release anything, will likely be bullet proof (like most all of their SSP products).
post #1067 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

I just cannot understand why if the MP20 problems were in the video why they didn't just release an audio-only model (with HDMI audio support and video pass through switching like the MC12HD) so at least their customers could have SOTA audio (and hopefully at a more real-world price).
I asked them that question at CES earlier this year, after they informed me that they had cancelled the MP-20. They said that while it was tempting to take out the video processing and release what was at that point a 4-year-old design, they instead saw this as an opportunity to start fresh with the latest tech and design a brand new ground-up audio-only processor.

Had they released an audio-only version of the MP-20, they would have been bringing a product to market whose memory chips were already end-of-lifed by the chip maker. That would be asking for trouble down the road when it came to repairs. I cringed at the notion of them starting with a fresh design, because I knew that would mean another endless delay, but I could understand their reasoning.
post #1068 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I asked them that question at CES earlier this year, after they informed me that they had cancelled the MP-20. They said that while it was tempting to take out the video processing and release what was at that point a 4-year-old design, they instead saw this as an opportunity to start fresh with the latest tech and design a brand new ground-up audio-only processor.
Had they released an audio-only version of the MP-20, they would have been bringing a product to market whose memory chips were already end-of-lifed by the chip maker. That would be asking for trouble down the road when it came to repairs. I cringed at the notion of them starting with a fresh design, because I knew that would mean another endless delay, but I could understand their reasoning.
Unfortunately, at the pace they seem to be moving, they're going to be in the same situation (end-of-life components) by the time they release something. wink.gif
post #1069 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Unfortunately, at the pace they seem to be moving, they're going to be in the same situation (end-of-life components) by the time they release something. wink.gif
That and the news from CEDIA that the next JBL Synthesis pre-pro will be based on the Bryston SP3, rather than some new Lex model, indicates something later than sooner.
post #1070 of 1296
Thread Starter 
Well as much as I REALLY want a new Lexicon platform I'm willing to wait, my MC-12BV5EQ is still going strong and since I started a speaker upgrade last year I would like to be able to finish that before I have to add getting a really expensive SSP into the mix.
post #1071 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

Well as much as I REALLY want a new Lexicon platform I'm willing to wait, my MC-12BV5EQ is still going strong and since I started a speaker upgrade last year I would like to be able to finish that before I have to add getting a really expensive SSP into the mix.
Same here. My MC-12HD already has room correction (below Schroeder) and 6 HDMI inputs, so I'm good to go for the near future. The only reason I'm looking forward to a newer processor from Lex is for better surround processing and room correction than I already have.
post #1072 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I asked them that question at CES earlier this year, after they informed me that they had cancelled the MP-20. They said that while it was tempting to take out the video processing and release what was at that point a 4-year-old design, they instead saw this as an opportunity to start fresh with the latest tech and design a brand new ground-up audio-only processor.
Had they released an audio-only version of the MP-20, they would have been bringing a product to market whose memory chips were already end-of-lifed by the chip maker. That would be asking for trouble down the road when it came to repairs. I cringed at the notion of them starting with a fresh design, because I knew that would mean another endless delay, but I could understand their reasoning.

I understand their reasoning also, but I can't help be reminded of the old saying: "Tomorrow never comes!" How hard would it have been to tweak the audio-only MP20 you asked about with updated chips as a "for now" SOTA model while they continue working on the all-new model? Otherwise they will always be "working on" the next great thing only to have it outdated by the time they finally have it ready for release. Sounds like they need an upgrade in their market planning department.
post #1073 of 1296
I think it is iffy that we will ever see the all new a/v pre from them.
post #1074 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

The SDP-45 released on 2/13/2013 is a rebadged Bryston SP-3. It does not have Logic 7. The design concept of the SP-3 is the same as the design concept for the JBL Synthesis amplifiers made by ATI: Keep the signal path as short, clean, and simple as possible. The Bryston SP-3 does not have room correction or any other fancy signal processing. It's a champion analog performer.That's the design goal, so don't expect any major features to be added. On the other hand this design is perfect for the Synthesis systems that use the SDP-3000/4500 external DSP units.
The "upgraded version with Quantum 7" referred to is NOT the SDP-45. My guess is that this refers to the new Lexicon MP-20 - or whatever it will be called the day Lexicon finally decides to release it...
BTW, here's a great 30 minute review of the SP3:
English (dubbed): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7BBG2vlQs8
German: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5-uy_Qu3vU

Well, it would be cool though to have Bryston's analog performance combined with JBL's/Lexicon's (or Harman's) knowledge on the digital/room processing side.

The design of the SP-3 is modular, it uses a Digital Audio Engine from Momentum Data Systems. If Harman's luxury audio group wanted to provide more features, they could either use the Texas Instruments DSP on that board and implement their own codecs or replace the DAE with another digital board that just fits the connectors and has more processing power, if needed.

This way, a SDP-45HD would not just be a rebadged Bryston, but a real alternative, adding some JBL/Lexicon/Harman flavor...

Just my two cents... wink.gif


Markus
post #1075 of 1296
Thread Starter 
Hell at this point I would be happy if Lexicon introduced another trade in program for the MC-12HD, I would really like to get HDMI and I would "trade up" to the HD version from my non HD version for the convenience providing of course the price was right. At that point I could move away from my Denon DVD-A1, get an Oppo and reduce the cable count in my system.
post #1076 of 1296
The Lexicon trade in program favored the dealers. It would cost signicanyly less to buy new and sell new at the time of that offering. At this point you Lex is maybe worth a few hundred dollars. No HDMI yet? Go to Videogon and get a HD model. Very cheap now.
post #1077 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by mv038856 View Post

Well, it would be cool though to have Bryston's analog performance combined with JBL's/Lexicon's (or Harman's) knowledge on the digital/room processing side.

This way, a SDP-45HD would not just be a rebadged Bryston, but a real alternative, adding some JBL/Lexicon/Harman flavor...
Agreed, if the new Lexicon is having trouble building the physical box (pre-pro) for their surround processing technology, then put that software into someone else's (well made) pre-pro.
post #1078 of 1296
@the bland - I did go to Videogon and look as I too would love a 12 HD vs. the 12 V5 I have.

Obviously ask and what someone pays is entirely different - but here is a cross section of the prices
MC12 v5 = $1900 obo
MC12 v2 = $1200 obo
MC12 HD = $7500 (good luck to who ever is trying to get that price).

I agree that it is frustrating not having something new out there - but I can honestly say - my trusted old Lexicon MC 12V5 still sounds amazing, and apart from upgrade fever and a desire to reduce cable fatigue - I am happy with the old clunker (does not look that bad either). Until something from them comes around, I am more curious about what people are replacing their lexicons with rather than rants about the company.

For me personally the time/money has allowed me to also dig into records again - a love I had long forgotten, and of course the wonderful equipment associated with it.

Tarun
post #1079 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

As I have noted and others have just the same, the Lexicon brand is alive and being used for new products such as the DD-8 amplifier. That product is becoming very successful. Two other companies are actually selling the same unit under their brand now!

Wait a minute: who else markets a reskin/rebadge of the Crown CT8150 amp?* (The CT8150 was on the market for a while before the DD-8, and obviously "Drivecore" is a Crown thing.) There's no such thing on the current JBL Synthesis site, which is the first place I thought to look.

I ask because this is an amp I may be interested in buying in the future, depending on how it measures up top into different loads*, and I'd like to know all of the possibilities.

*Yes, I know that unlike with the OppoCon debacle the Lexicon amp is very slightly different from the Crown amp it came from (The DD-8 offers RCA inputs rather than the CT8150's balanced Phoenix terminal inputs, and the DD-8 does not have a rack-width faceplate so it's easier to fit into many "home theater" cabinets such as BDI's), and unlike in the OppoCon debacle Lexicon doesn't charge 6x more for the same part in a new box this time around.
post #1080 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Wait a minute: who else markets a reskin/rebadge of the Crown CT8150 amp?* (The CT8150 was on the market for a while before the DD-8, and obviously "Drivecore" is a Crown thing.) There's no such thing on the current JBL Synthesis site, which is the first place I thought to look.
I don't know that they want me to say but this may be one of them: http://www.savantsystems.com/product-details/8channel_multiroom_amplifier.aspx

smile.gif
Quote:
I ask because this is an amp I may be interested in buying in the future, depending on how it measures up top into different loads*, and I'd like to know all of the possibilities.
*Yes, I know that unlike with the OppoCon debacle the Lexicon amp is very slightly different from the Crown amp it came from (The DD-8 offers RCA inputs rather than the CT8150's balanced Phoenix terminal inputs, and the DD-8 does not have a rack-width faceplate so it's easier to fit into many "home theater" cabinets such as BDI's), and unlike in the OppoCon debacle Lexicon doesn't charge 6x more for the same part in a new box this time around.
The genesis of this design was the automobile division (multi-billion dollar group that provides electronics/infotainment for a ton of car brands). They needed to make thing small and light. The results of that was the collaboration with TI on development of the amplifier drive VLSI. Various groups then built chassis out of it for different markets. Since the pro/consumer groups were one for a while (no longer are) there was a lot of sharing of designs. So there is really no analogy to the Oppo thing. Here, we are seeing the power of vertically integrated Harman benefiting from their volume car business.
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