Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 42

That wouldn't exactly be the end of the world .

I have been finding the OT discussion interesting, but if nothing else moving it to another thread might be helpful for anyone else who is running into similar problems as it isn't exactly obvious by the thread title that this is the place to come to for dealing with hiss.

Wow. Really? Ok, that could possibly be the problem then! My dealer was using an Integra 80.3 - same prepro as my Onkyo 5509 so this would also explain the hiss in his system.

I have an 8-channel Rane transformer based unit that I can put between the prepro and the SDEC. This will give complete and total electric isolation. Definitely worth trying. Thanks for the suggestion Amir. Much appreciated!

Ok, let's get back to Amir's post before the OT derailed:

What do you refer to with "not the direction you are going" ? Not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that purchasing an SDP-45 is a step in the wrong direction? I'm guessing I misunderstood, but just want to make sure.

Sorry I was not clear. I thought your post was saying that they have just put their name on the Byrston processor. I was trying to explain that they have helped improve the product but that those improvements will also show up in the Bryston. So while at the end of the day it would seem that all they have done is put their name on the Bryston, i.e. both will perform the same, the actual path that got us there is different than just plain renaming.

Longer term my hope is that Harman will add is own differentiation to the product. Let's hope that my hope becomes reality .

We are running unbalanced to our Marantz pre/pro front-end. Prior to that, we were running balanced with the JBL SDP-40H. Had to switch to Marantz to get 3-D support.

Google is your friend and thread titles are of no relevance. My dealer just asked me what's up, and what's the deal with this hiss discussion - JBL contacted him. Apparently JBL is monitoring this thread too!

Take advantage of that. I would have them confirm the source of the noise. May be what you said but I would get it all confirmed. Harman seems to be a reputable company.

To be fair, the additional QC was not something I did think of. That's great added value to Bryston owners too. I thought the release of the SDP-45 was tied to pure logistics (getting the custom parts and getting production going). I did not take into account additional QC and the things that involves. I was originally told the SDP-45 would be available on 2/13. However, now it's postponed to "end of March". The additional QC you brought up totally explains the unforeseen delay. Very useful info Amir. Thank you!

They are, but let's see if Amir knows more than Harman tech support does. I'll be darned if the Onkyo is the culprit!

I was never comfortable with putting that Onkyo thing in there in the first place, but since my dealer told me JBL recommended him the Integra 80.3 over the SDP-40HD, I went with the Onkyo since I did not want to spend money on the outdated SDP40HD.

My dealer is great and I would never blame him! If Onkyo turns out to be the culprit, then it's simply bad advice from the sales people at JBL...

The folks at JBL/Harman have always been first class to me, beginning in 1973 when a 123 woofer stopped working on my L100. When one of my Synthesis® amps showed up damaged, the dealer and JBL made it right, right away. I didn't have to hassle with the freight agent at all.

JBL, JBL Pro, and now the Harman Luxury Audio Group that has JBL Synthesis® among others have always been good to me, regardless of whether it was Woodbury NJ, Elkhart IN, or Northridge CA. If they are indeed tracking this discussion, then it's to learn and to find a solution (if one is needed)... IMO.

I'm not surprised that Harman, JBL and Lexicon monitor this thread. All large corporations monitor comments about their companies, in print media, on the internet, and social media. When it comes to the internet, this would be the prime site for Harman and JBL to monitor.

Not that it much matters. Harman has driven Lexicon into the ground. Few brands had the loyalty of Lexicon. (Note the use of the past tense.) Even now, it can be argued that Lexicon surround processing, which is now many years old, has never been clearly surpassed, and only equaled at best, and some would argue that L7 is still superior and offers greater flexibility and user adjustments.

Based on that, the owners of Lexicon waited and waited for news that a new processor would be released. The owners of Lexicon were so loyal that they waited for YEARS for any announcement of a new product. We would all be hard pressed to think of other brands in audio that had such a cult following and so much loyalty from their customers.

Harman squandered all of that. Harman and Lexicon completely ignored the comments posted here. Or at least they have never responded, not here or anywhere else. And the record of Lexicon in recent years demonstrates that they are no longer leaders in their field. For that matter, Lexicon couldn't even claim to be a follower, at least not on pre-pro processors. Followers at least do that --they follow someone else's lead and copy their products. Since Lexicon hasn't released a new processor in many years, they have not even done that.

Harmon and JBL are reading this forum? Well, why don't they comment on their record.

First we have the Lexicon version of vaporware, better known as the MP-20. That crashed and burned.

But wait, says Lexicon!!! Anecdotal reports from trade shows from about one year ago, quoted Lexicon reps as claiming that they are still working on a processor. But now we know that those secret plans were probably bogus as well. The latest update, and once again, all that we have to go on is a second-hand and anecdotal report from a trade show, is that we won't see a Lexicon processor for the next several years, at the earliest.

Of course, if you believe we will see a Lexicon processor even in two years, well, you must own ocean beach property in Arizona and believe that pigs really do fly.

Apparently JBL will release the new QLS in one of their ultra-expensive products. Of course, no one has ever actually heard the home theater version of QLS except in a crowded room and a limited demo at a trade show, and that was over a year ago.

Anyway, if JBL markets room correction separately from a new processor, the combined price of the two units will likely be over $25,000 based on projections from current pricing.

It is really laughable to hear that Harman and JBL are reading this site. The comments posted here and on the SMR site have been a public relations debacle for Harman and Lexicon. It is really astonishing that Harman took a great company, with a very loyal customer base, and undermined all of that.

So Harman and JBL monitor this thread, read the comments, and do nothing about it. That is their record.

It is time to accept the reality that there will not be a new Lexicon processor for at least several years. That is the latest anecdotal report, and no one from Harman or Lexicon has corrected that report. The topic of this thread -- whether there will be a new Lexicon processor -- is closed for all practical purposes. We can revisit that topic in several years. In two years, the few remaining followers of Lexicon can hold a meeting in Arizona on ocean beach property to discuss the topic of the non-existent processor.

t is time to shut down this thread, and move the discussion of JBL to a thread devoted to those products, or hiss to a thread devoted to that. And open a separate thread on the MC12HD for current owners to discuss any issues and problems with that unit. I believe other threads on the MC12 already exist, and I assume the same is true for JBL and Onkyo, and that is where the current discussion belongs.

It is both appropriate and ironic that the current discussion, both above, and below, has absolutely nothing to do with Lexicon or the topic of this thread, since there is nothing more to be said about the topic -- whether there will be a new Lexicon processor. Those of us who monitored this thread for that reason can now leave it to the rest of you to discuss topics that have nothing to do with a future Lexicon processor.

This has become a random thread on miscellaneous topics, none of which have anything to do with Lexicon. Where is the moderator when you need him?
Edited by Emosewa09 - 2/3/13 at 7:09am

Okay, the Onkyo is not the culprit. Nothing on the source side affects the hiss. I tried this:
-Running Onkyo through a Rane Balance Buddy (an 8 transformer based unit). No change.
-Running Onkyo unbalanced. No change.
-Disconnecting all the inputs to the SDEC. No change.

I also tried running unbalanced between SDEC and S7165. No change.

Two things I did not mention earlier:
-When powering on the SDEC all is hiss-free during start-up for the 55 first seconds. Then the hiss starts.
-The level of hiss is exactly the same on the D1-D4 output ports of the 4500P as it is on the outputs of the 4500X. Because of this, I don't believe that I have bad output cards. 5 bad cards in 2 units seems unlikely.

The only way I can get rid of the hiss completely is attenuators on the amplifier inputs. Question remains if this is normal or if something is wrong with my SDECs

Amir: You're powering on/off your SDEC after each use, right? Do you hear any speaker "pops/clicks" during the 1-minute initialization sequence when the SDEC starts? When my SDEC starts up, there is a relatively loud "click" sound 55 seconds into the startup (without attenuators this sound is so loud that someone unaware could get startled by it). This "click" actually happens right before the hiss begins.

After considering all you said (regarding SDEC inputs and possible noise), I'm beginning to suspect that there's a chance that something is wrong on the input side of my 4500P. I had my mind set on that if there's a problem, it would be related to the output cards and I dissmissed that on the premise that it is highly unlikely that 5 cards in 2 units are bad. However, something being wrong with the inputs on my 4500P could actually be a possible explanation. If you don't hear the "click" sound I'm referring to, then it sounds like I definitely have something odd going on with my SDEC...

The 55 second click is normal. That is how long it takes it to initialize and then unmute the output relays. I am at work and just power cycled it and that is exactly what it did. The two of us standing point blank by the speakers could not hear any hiss whatsoever. But did hear the click as I just noted.
Just confirming, you hear the hiss even without anything hooked up to the SDEC? Regardless, I would see if your dealer can get you a replacement unit to test with. It would be nice to get to the bottom of this and understand why it does this in your install and not in our nearly identical setup. If you need my help with Harman to facilitate this, just let me know .

Correct. I hear the hiss with nothing hooked up to the SDEC (all 8 phoenix on A&B ports disconnected). Without attenuation, the hiss is so loud that I hear it in the center of the room (8' from the surrounds/rears, 13' from the fronts).

When physically attennuating (-12dB) all channels except for one surround, hiss from that single non-attenuated surround is audible at 3' and completely obvious at point blank. It's so obvious that anyone with normal hearing would notice it when walking past the surround.

This is when the room is quiet. Once I start the projector the hiss melts in with the fan noise and is no longer obvious or distracting.

I have not had the calibration done yet, but that should not affect the hiss. Correct? I'd also hate for the calibrator to come in and find that the unit is faulty, so yes, I too would like to get to bottom with this.

My dealer is very accommodating, but I hate to have to trouble him with this since everyhing "works" correctly. The answer I got from Harman technical support about hiss being "normal" was also a bit discouraging. But I guess I got to do what I got to do... Thanks for offering to help. Let's see what happens...
Edited by Peter Nielsen - 2/4/13 at 12:21pm

Hey Pete. Hearing this hiss from 8ft away is not normal at all. I had assumed you could only hear it being much closer which was still concerning to me. Having the projector in the room with you cancels the hiss for you but not a good reason to ignore it. In most higher end setups, the projector is behind the back wall (like mine).

Can't hurt to have them install another SDEC for you to test. This isn't something I would ignore or just accept as normal.

Oh, we could have a problem there! It is very easy to have EQ settings such that the gain is too high, the high frequencies boosted so much as to create hiss and such. Fortunately you can check this yourself. Download the SDEC control panel from this link: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/downloads/products/prod_120_634677716930429115_SDEC%20Control%20Panel%201.5%20Setup.zip

Make sure your SDECs are on the network and look up the SDEC-4500P address (it shows up on the front panel) and put that in the above software when it runs. It should connect and then ask you to configure the system. It is a very easy thing and basically wants to know your speaker types and number. Once there, it will then present you with a simple UI that gives you access to all the EQ settings for all the channels. There is a drop down at the bottom that selects EQ or no EQ. That is a master enable/disable. Select no EQ. Then click in the different sections for each speaker and make sure everything is set to zero. It is possible that you got a unit that was preconfigured for some other use and those settings have not been reset.

Even if you don't have an issue the above tool lets you fully configure the SDEC manually! All you need is a measurement mic and software such as room eq wizard and you can manually tune the system. Be careful as to not damage things though as it is easy to boost up gain and such beyond limits.
It is always possible to get hiss in gear. And hum. So it is not surprising that they have some suggestion for this. And we may wind up just accepting that in your case. But let's dig in some more and decide that when the time comes.

I've been using the SDEC control panel from day one. All parameters were set to zero out of the box and looking good from the start. I have tried to disable the EQ, no difference. I have tried to turn down the master level all the way. I have tried to mute the outputs. Still the same level of hiss. I came to the conclusion that none of the easily accessible adjustable software parameters in the SDEC panel affects the hiss.

However, if there is a "factory settings" .sdec configuration XML file I could load, that would definitely be worth a try. Is there such a thing?

Yes, usually hum is problematic but I have absolute zero hum. This is definitely the quietest analog setup I have ever used when it comes to hum. However the hiss is unusually high and probaly not normal.

Yes, I'm not throwing in the towel yet. I need to find out what's going on

I suspect we look at XLR's and think they are all the same. But there are "consumer" XLRs and there are "pro" XLRs, and by that I mean the signal levels they carry. Consumer is -10 dBv and pro is +4 dBv. That's a 14 dB difference in signal level.

If the SDEC (BSS Web) units are designed to operate at +4, then they will not interface to consumer power amps optimally. A step-down transformer, such as the Jensen JT-10KB-D will scale down the audio and the noise, thus rendering the hiss inaudible.

That's a worthwhile exploration, Roger.

While my Synthesis® gear is all unbalanced, my custom, actively quad-amped JBL "PT250" towers are using pro XLRs between the BSS 366T units and the Hafler SR2600 pro amps. Dead quiet.

On the K2 S9900s I've got "consumer" (Monster--is my face red?) XLRs from the P7 pre to the ATI 2003 amps. Dead quiet. When I used the pro XLRs, not so much. I figured it was cheap cables, since unfortunately I do not have your technical background or your general good sense. Once I got the Monster Cable XLRs (used on ebay, thank you very much), everything quieted right down.

Who knows if this will solve Peter's dilemma? Nonetheless, I'm enjoying the process that I'm seeing since we went completely off thread.

FWIW, The Synthesis amps have the same input level on XLR and RCA. The specifications confirm this and so do my measurements. The difference between -10dBV and +4dBu is approximately 12dB. -10dBV=-7.8dBu. For correct calculations, please look at this: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm

The SDEC-4500 (BSS BLU-120/160) output the same level regardless if balanced or unbalanced. Also, the balanced connections of the Synthesis units provide good isolation as-is, so adding a transformer is overkill and could potentially affect performance. A simple U-pad is all that's needed. Read up more here: http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/

The Synthesis amps output full power at approximately +4dBu.

As for your thoughts, that's along the line of my thinking. There's a lot of unused headroom above the +4dBu needed for the Synthesis amplifiers to achieve full output power. The SDEC-4500 is able to output a maximum of +19dBu. Attenuating by 12dB should thus be acceptable and still leave a decibel or two of additional headroom.

Anyway, I still need to look more into this before drawing any conclusions! One thing that I made different compared to Amir and Filecat is that I did not purchase the Synthesis XLRIC cable kit. I made my own custom length cables for ideal wiring in the rack. The question remains whether the Synthesis cables incorporate undocumented attenuation. I told Harman Tech support I made custom cables and asked if the Synthesis cables incorporate attenuation to reduce the hiss. This question was never addressed. If the Synthesis cables have attenuation, that will explain everything and put an instant end to this discussion. This remains to be seen. More to follow...
Edited by Peter Nielsen - 2/5/13 at 4:27pm

Thanks, Peter, for all the added details. Quite right about the transformers being overkill wrt redundant isolation and unnecessary insertion losses. And maybe 12 dB is too much attenuation to apply for the given amps. But the concept of hitting the EQ's such that they have just a few dB headroom compared to where the amps clip is the best way to maximize system dynamic range.

My educated choice/guesstimate was between -10dB and -12dB. Both are good. I went with the latter. The former would require a -1.0dB speaker level offset in my Onkyo and the latter +1.0dB.

Without any attenuation, my Onkyo's Audyssey sets the speaker level offsets to -11dB. With my -12dB attenuation, Onkyo adjusts speaker levels to +1dB.

Somehow all seems more normal to me with the attenuation in place, and the easy explanation to everything in this discussion is an undocumented built-in attenuation in the Synthesis SDEC cables. Anyway, I'm waiting to hear back on the cables so let's see...
Edited by Peter Nielsen - 2/6/13 at 6:58am

Relative to Lexicon; I see where the SMR-forum website has been down for a week or so. Does anyone know if this is permanent or temporary?

The SMR Forum was being spammed to death (apparently the forum filters weren't catching them). So the owner took the forum down to manually clean it up. But considering the current state of Lexicon discussion (not to mention current state of Lexicon), he hasn't decided whether it is worth all the effort to clean up spam posts on by one and recreate the forum.

I missed that about attenuation in the cables. Is there a post about it? How much attn do they provide?

JBL confirmed that or is that a theory?

This is just a theory I have that would explain everything. I asked my dealer and Amir to measure the cables and see what they come up with. My dealer just reported back that there is no attenuation - the cables are straight connections.

I have added 12dB attenuation to my cables and that solves the issues and makes everything normal.
Without the added attenuation I hear hiss at a 8' seating distance and my Onkyo adjusts speaker offsets to -11dB

The question remains why I had to do this...
Edited by Peter Nielsen - 2/8/13 at 12:32pm

It is only a theory that would explain everything. I asked JBL a month ago, but they dodged the question. However, my dealer just measured one of the Synthesis cables and reported back that there is no attenuation. Let's see if Amir comes to the same conclusion.