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Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 43

post #1261 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The SMR Forum was being spammed to death (apparently the forum filters weren't catching them). So the owner took the forum down to manually clean it up. But considering the current state of Lexicon discussion (not to mention current state of Lexicon), he hasn't decided whether it is worth all the effort to clean up spam posts on by one and recreate the forum.

Thanks Sanjay-

I, for one, hope he elects to continue the forum. I just purchased a MC-12v5EQ and have used the forum extensively to help me understand how to best configure the set-up options.
post #1262 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Thanks Sanjay-

I, for one, hope he elects to continue the forum. I just purchased a MC-12v5EQ and have used the forum extensively to help me understand how to best configure the set-up options.

Kind of fitting, smr used to have alot of traffic.

Just more consequences for Lexicon going silent.
post #1263 of 1296
This weekend I did the "ultimate" test: I took both SDEC-units out of the rack. I stacked them with insulation between units (to eliminate the chance of chassis ground loops) and only conneced the two with the BluLink cable and one single output connected to a S7165 input. No change. Even this minimal setup generates the exact same level of hiss as before. Clearly the hiss is not caused by external factors.

Time for a phone call to Harman Synthesis Technical support. I spoke with Gregory, and this is the answer I got:

"The hiss is normal. It is there, but not everybody can hear it".

How ironic!!! This is exactly what I said in my original post(s) that led to this lengthy Synthesis hiss discussion. tongue.gif

He also confirmed my therory about the SDEC being a pro unit with 12dB higher output level than consumer units (S7165).

Although he was a bit reserved towards my suggestion of attenutating the SDEC outputs, he did acknowledge that it is a possibility. My experience shows is that it's a solution which works wonderfully for someone like me that seldom, if ever, will use the upper range of the output capacity. I'd much rather have a little higher distorsion at crazy-high output levels than audible hiss in a silent room.

When I pick up my SDP-45 at the end of March, I will have another listen to my dealer's system and ask him to turn off his super-noisy DLP Titan projector just to confirm that the background hiss is completely normal and that nothing is wrong with my SDEC...
post #1264 of 1296
Peter, you're nothing if not thorough, Certainly no one can fault you on the completeness of your investigation. smile.gif

Although I'm sure if someone thinks of something else, it'll be posted here first. wink.gif
post #1265 of 1296
In all the talk about the new Bryston-built JBL Synthesis SDP-45 I have not seen any reference or confirmation to it supporting Logic 7, which JBL processors have in the past. Does anyone know if the SDP-45 will have Logic 7 or not? If not, bummer and deal-breaker for me.
post #1266 of 1296
Thread Starter 
It would be nice if it did. I think I could live without room EQ but not having L7 for music is one hard pill to swallow so if the JBL unit were to add L7, the full blown version found in the MC-12 mind you I would give it some serious thought as the SP3, even though a bit cheaper is a no go for me as well. I find it odd that Bryston choose to focus so intently on discrete channels in a current product thus did not include Dolby PLIIz and dts:Neo X. To me this would limit current sales and future sales on a product that is all ready out of the reach of what most people are willing to spend on audio gear. Granted things like PLIIz and NeoX could be added via a firmware upgrade BUT the hardware would not support it, not the full implementation of NeoX anyways because there are not enough outputs. Back to your question though L7 in the SDP45 would be great.
post #1267 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

I find it odd that Bryston choose to focus so intently on discrete channels in a current product thus did not include Dolby PLIIz and dts:Neo X.
The Bryston seems to be more of a purist multi-channel pre-amp than a surround processor. The former is better suited for people who listen to 2-channel music using only 2 speakers, listen to 5.1 sources using 5.1 speakers, listen to 7.1 sources with 7.1 speakers, etc. Besides licensing the basic surround processing modes from Dolby and DTS, the SP3 doesn't do anything unique when it comes to scaling the number of channels in the source material to the number of speakers in your set-up.
post #1268 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

In all the talk about the new Bryston-built JBL Synthesis SDP-45 I have not seen any reference or confirmation to it supporting Logic 7, which JBL processors have in the past. Does anyone know if the SDP-45 will have Logic 7 or not? If not, bummer and deal-breaker for me.

I spoke to JBL about this. They are claiming L7 (or like) may be released in a future firmware update but could not guarantee it.
post #1269 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

I spoke to JBL about this. They are claiming L7 (or like) may be released in a future firmware update but could not guarantee it.
When I asked the reps at CES a couple months back, they said that they weren't sure whether the Bryston has enough processing power and memory to handle even a scaled down 7-channel version of QuantumLogic Surround processing. However, they were quick to add that IF it turns out that the Bryston can't handle it, then their next Synthesis pre-pro (whether home brewed or re-badged) would be chosen knowing it could handle QLS.
post #1270 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

When I asked the reps at CES a couple months back, they said that they weren't sure whether the Bryston has enough processing power and memory to handle even a scaled down 7-channel version of QuantumLogic Surround processing. However, they were quick to add that IF it turns out that the Bryston can't handle it, then their next Synthesis pre-pro (whether home brewed or re-badged) would be chosen knowing it could handle QLS.

Would be strange for them to go through the trouble of selecting the Bryston SP3 as a Synthesis solution if it didn't have the processing power they needed now or in the future.
post #1271 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Would be strange for them to go through the trouble of selecting the Bryston SP3 as a Synthesis solution if it didn't have the processing power they needed now or in the future.
You'd think so, but their main concern at the moment seems to be a clean sounding pre-amp that can decode the new hi-res audio codecs. Gives the impression of a current, up to date pre-pro (even though practically every BD player can decode those same codecs). They're not concerned with room correction being built into the pre-pro, since Synthesis systems always handle that in outboard boxes. So the Bryston was a fitting choice, has what they need and nothing they don't (not even PEQ). Surround processing might not be as much of a priority for the typical JBL Synthesis customers as it is for someone like me.
post #1272 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You'd think so, but their main concern at the moment seems to be a clean sounding pre-amp that can decode the new hi-res audio codecs. Gives the impression of a current, up to date pre-pro (even though practically every BD player can decode those same codecs). They're not concerned with room correction being built into the pre-pro, since Synthesis systems always handle that in outboard boxes. So the Bryston was a fitting choice, has what they need and nothing they don't (not even PEQ). Surround processing might not be as much of a priority for the typical JBL Synthesis customers as it is for someone like me.

I'm guessing that a good percentage of homes with a JBL Synthesis system also have a Kaleidescape system, and those do not do the internal decoding for hi-res codecs, so the Bryston does fill a need in that regard in a way that the old 12hd could not.
post #1273 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

When I asked the reps at CES a couple months back, they said that they weren't sure whether the Bryston has enough processing power and memory to handle even a scaled down 7-channel version of QuantumLogic Surround processing. However, they were quick to add that IF it turns out that the Bryston can't handle it, then their next Synthesis pre-pro (whether home brewed or re-badged) would be chosen knowing it could handle QLS.

Right, maybe not QLS but surely the Bryston should be powerful enough to handle L7 considering that the 10+ year old MC12 can do that... rolleyes.gif
post #1274 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

Right, maybe not QLS but surely the Bryston should be powerful enough to handle L7 considering that the 10+ year old MC12 can do that... rolleyes.gif
I may be totally off base here, but there may be a licensing issue. Did MC12 include any other form of upmix other than L7; i.e. did it also include the DPL products?
post #1275 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

I may be totally off base here, but there may be a licensing issue. Did MC12 include any other form of upmix other than L7; i.e. did it also include the DPL products?
The MC-12 has the usual checklist of surround processing modes licensed from Dolby (PLIIx), DTS (Neo:6) and THX (MC-12 is THX Ultra2 certified). The Bryston already has the first two of those (PLIIx and Neo:6), so I'm not understanding what "licensing issue" you're referring to.
post #1276 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

I may be totally off base here, but there may be a licensing issue. Did MC12 include any other form of upmix other than L7; i.e. did it also include the DPL products?

Not unlikely at all. I'm also guessing that Harman wants to move forward and not spend resources on implementing a "legacy" technology (L7) that supposedly is "replaced" by QLS...
post #1277 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

I'm also guessing that Harman wants to move forward and not spend resources on implementing a "legacy" technology (L7) that supposedly is "replaced" by QLS...
I'd guess the same: L7 is in their past, they want to move to implementing QLS (even a scaled down version).
post #1278 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The Bryston already has the first two of those (PLIIx and Neo:6), so I'm not understanding what "licensing issue" you're referring to.
As I stated, I was not sure if there was a licensing issue, especially since I was not familiar with the surround processing modes available with the MC12. In technology, sometimes companies will not license a particular technology for a product if said product already contains a competitors technology. I have no idea if that ever happens in this sphere. Thanks for the info.
post #1279 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I'd guess the same: L7 is in their past, they want to move to implementing QLS (even a scaled down version).

Then they should have picked a pre/pro with the processing power to do it! Otherwise, at least give their fans the Logic7 they enjoy so much. One more instance of Harman fracking up their whole upgraded pre/pro line (Lexicon and JBL Synthesis). No wonder so many cling to their MC-12s and SDP-40s.
post #1280 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Then they should have picked a pre/pro with the processing power to do it! Otherwise, at least give their fans the Logic7 they enjoy so much. One more instance of Harman fracking up their whole upgraded pre/pro line (Lexicon and JBL Synthesis). No wonder so many cling to their MC-12s and SDP-40s.

Did you ever consider that maybe the Bryston SP-3 was the only viable option? The alternative might have been to keep selling the SDP-40HD as their flagship for one or two more years. That would not make JBL look good. They desperately needed to get the processor updated with something more up-to-date that takes 7.1 analog in and supports bitstream decoding. Most new customers probably don't know what L7 is, but will most certainly frown upon the lack of bitstream decoding and only 5.1 inputs.

Can you suggest a better alternative than the Bryston SP-3? We're all ears! wink.gifbiggrin.gif

BTW, the updated Synthesis site still shows the SDP-40HD as available as an option next to the new SDP-45. While the Lexicon MC-12 is discontinued (and sold out?), JBL apparently has not discontinued the SDP-40HD yet. This makes a lot of sense since the SDP-40HD will work better for those customers that need L7 and/or legacy video signal support, or those that feel the SDP-45 is too expensive.
Edited by Peter Nielsen - 3/9/13 at 11:22am
post #1281 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Then they should have picked a pre/pro with the processing power to do it!
You're assuming that proprietary surround processing is a high priority for JBL Synthesis systems. Apparently it isn't, which is something you're going to have to learn to deal with. JBL is fine using PLIIx to upmix from 5.1 channels to 7.1 outputs. IF they can add their surround processing later, that will be nice, but it isn't a priority.
post #1282 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

Did you ever consider that maybe the Bryston SP-3 was the only viable option? The alternative might have been to keep selling the SDP-40HD as their flagship for one or two more years. That would not make JBL look good. They desperately needed to get the processor updated with something more up-to-date that takes 7.1 analog in and supports bitstream decoding. Most new customers probably don't know what L7 is, but will most certainly frown upon the lack of bitstream decoding and only 5.1 inputs.

Can you suggest a better alternative than the Bryston SP-3? We're all ears! wink.gifbiggrin.gif

BTW, the updated Synthesis site still shows the SDP-40HD as available as an option next to the new SDP-45. While the Lexicon MC-12 is discontinued (and sold out?), JBL apparently has not discontinued the SDP-40HD yet. This makes a lot of sense since the SDP-40HD will work better for those customers that need L7 and/or legacy video signal support, or those that feel the SDP-45 is too expensive.

Yes, I agree with your analysis; JBL was left high and dry when Lexicon screwed the pooch on the MP-20. As for a better alternative, nothing comes to mind since Lexicon decided not to simply produce the MP20 minus the superfluous video processing. By doing so Lexicon not only disappointed their many fans, they also lost a big contract with JBL to a competitor.
post #1283 of 1296
How do you know Lexicon is not working on a new processor behind closed doors. I know we haven't heard anything but I would like to know your source.

Kim
post #1284 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Yes, I agree with your analysis; JBL was left high and dry when Lexicon screwed the pooch on the MP-20. As for a better alternative, nothing comes to mind since Lexicon decided not to simply produce the MP20 minus the superfluous video processing. By doing so Lexicon not only disappointed their many fans, they also lost a big contract with JBL to a competitor.

Lexicon and JBL are all part of Harman. Not sure what you mean by last a big a contract?
post #1285 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Lexicon and JBL are all part of Harman. Not sure what you mean by last a big a contract?
Even though they're all part of Harman doesn't mean they don't each have their own profit / loss centers. If nothing else, it's not exactly ideal for Harman as a whole to be sourcing an item from an outside company when they have their own company that's supposed to be an expert at producing that item.
post #1286 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimg1453 View Post

How do you know Lexicon is not working on a new processor behind closed doors. I know we haven't heard anything but I would like to know your source.
There have been posts from some fairly reliable sources that indicate that Lexicon decided to basically start over rather than simply remove the video processing from the MP-20. Nobody said that Lexicon isn't working on a new processor. The problem is that if they're starting over again, it's going to be a while before they deliver anything.
post #1287 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Even though they're all part of Harman doesn't mean they don't each have their own profit / loss centers. If nothing else, it's not exactly ideal for Harman as a whole to be sourcing an item from an outside company when they have their own company that's supposed to be an expert at producing that item.

I understand the benefit of leveraging your own internal resources. I was trying to understand the "big contract" statement. Harman has been outsourcing for years. Bryston and ATI for their amps for example. Now they leverage Crown (which is internal to Harman). Point is, Harman simply did not have a solution in house for a modern processor and had to leverage an outside partner (Bryston in this case).
Edited by adidino - 3/13/13 at 12:20am
post #1288 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

I understand the benefit of leveraging your own internal resources. I was trying to understand the "big contract" statement. Harman has been outsourcing for years. Bryston and ATI for their amps for example. Now they leverage Crown (which is internal to Harman). Point is,Harman simply did not have a solution in house for a modern processor and had to leverage an outside partner (Bryston in this case).

Exactly! But why did they have to turn to Bryston? Because Lexicon fouled-up on the MP-20, AND did so again (IMO) by refusing to just drop the video processing, which would still have kept JBL Synthesis as an in-house customer. IMO, at this price range, NOBODY needs a built-in video processor in their audio processor. There are far better (and cheaper) separate video processors out there that don't require a long-term investment in a pre/pro. Bryston does not include video processing in their SP-3 and nobody thinks it is lacking as a high-end pre/pro. I just don't understand the thinking at Lexicon on this issue. Maybe somebody here with inside connections can explain it to me.
post #1289 of 1296
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

...Bryston does not include video processing in their SP-3 and nobody thinks it is lacking as a high-end pre/pro. ...

I do ... biggrin.gif

The Bryston does a lot right in my opinion but it's lack of focus on surround processing like not including Dolby PLIIz and dts Neo:X, and no room eq make it lacking in my opinion. As Sanjay pointed out earlier Bryston is taking a purist approach which is a different market segment then the Lexicon anyways so for that market it isn't lacking, say perhaps for 1 additional sub out. I just learned last week that the SP3 allows for the setting of crossovers per input should the user desire to set things up that way and I think that's a wonderful feature. I don't think I have ever heard of such a feature available in other processors or receivers for that matter. With no PLIIz or Neo:X capabilities I would have liked to see the SP3 with just one additional Aux output which could have been used for a 4th sub should someone want a sub on each wall or in each corner without having to use a Y splitter.

If the SDP-45 can not even get a scaled back 7.1 version of QL but could get the L7 from the MC-12 I think that might help sales. They (JBL) don't have to worry about lack of room EQ in the SP3 because they have their own external solution so it actually works out better for them that the SP3 doesn't have that as they would be paying for something they don't need.
post #1290 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

I just learned last week that the SP3 allows for the setting of crossovers per input should the user desire to set things up that way and I think that's a wonderful feature. I don't think I have ever heard of such a feature available in other processors or receivers for that matter.
The SSP-800 can do that. Define the speaker config (can make up to 6 different ones), then map it to the desired input.
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