Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 43

Thanks Sanjay-

I, for one, hope he elects to continue the forum. I just purchased a MC-12v5EQ and have used the forum extensively to help me understand how to best configure the set-up options.

Kind of fitting, smr used to have alot of traffic.

Just more consequences for Lexicon going silent.

This weekend I did the "ultimate" test: I took both SDEC-units out of the rack. I stacked them with insulation between units (to eliminate the chance of chassis ground loops) and only conneced the two with the BluLink cable and one single output connected to a S7165 input. No change. Even this minimal setup generates the exact same level of hiss as before. Clearly the hiss is not caused by external factors.

Time for a phone call to Harman Synthesis Technical support. I spoke with Gregory, and this is the answer I got:

"The hiss is normal. It is there, but not everybody can hear it".

How ironic!!! This is exactly what I said in my original post(s) that led to this lengthy Synthesis hiss discussion.

He also confirmed my therory about the SDEC being a pro unit with 12dB higher output level than consumer units (S7165).

Although he was a bit reserved towards my suggestion of attenutating the SDEC outputs, he did acknowledge that it is a possibility. My experience shows is that it's a solution which works wonderfully for someone like me that seldom, if ever, will use the upper range of the output capacity. I'd much rather have a little higher distorsion at crazy-high output levels than audible hiss in a silent room.

When I pick up my SDP-45 at the end of March, I will have another listen to my dealer's system and ask him to turn off his super-noisy DLP Titan projector just to confirm that the background hiss is completely normal and that nothing is wrong with my SDEC...

Peter, you're nothing if not thorough, Certainly no one can fault you on the completeness of your investigation.

Although I'm sure if someone thinks of something else, it'll be posted here first.

In all the talk about the new Bryston-built JBL Synthesis SDP-45 I have not seen any reference or confirmation to it supporting Logic 7, which JBL processors have in the past. Does anyone know if the SDP-45 will have Logic 7 or not? If not, bummer and deal-breaker for me.

The Bryston seems to be more of a purist multi-channel pre-amp than a surround processor. The former is better suited for people who listen to 2-channel music using only 2 speakers, listen to 5.1 sources using 5.1 speakers, listen to 7.1 sources with 7.1 speakers, etc. Besides licensing the basic surround processing modes from Dolby and DTS, the SP3 doesn't do anything unique when it comes to scaling the number of channels in the source material to the number of speakers in your set-up.

I spoke to JBL about this. They are claiming L7 (or like) may be released in a future firmware update but could not guarantee it.

When I asked the reps at CES a couple months back, they said that they weren't sure whether the Bryston has enough processing power and memory to handle even a scaled down 7-channel version of QuantumLogic Surround processing. However, they were quick to add that IF it turns out that the Bryston can't handle it, then their next Synthesis pre-pro (whether home brewed or re-badged) would be chosen knowing it could handle QLS.

Would be strange for them to go through the trouble of selecting the Bryston SP3 as a Synthesis solution if it didn't have the processing power they needed now or in the future.

You'd think so, but their main concern at the moment seems to be a clean sounding pre-amp that can decode the new hi-res audio codecs. Gives the impression of a current, up to date pre-pro (even though practically every BD player can decode those same codecs). They're not concerned with room correction being built into the pre-pro, since Synthesis systems always handle that in outboard boxes. So the Bryston was a fitting choice, has what they need and nothing they don't (not even PEQ). Surround processing might not be as much of a priority for the typical JBL Synthesis customers as it is for someone like me.

I'm guessing that a good percentage of homes with a JBL Synthesis system also have a Kaleidescape system, and those do not do the internal decoding for hi-res codecs, so the Bryston does fill a need in that regard in a way that the old 12hd could not.

Right, maybe not QLS but surely the Bryston should be powerful enough to handle L7 considering that the 10+ year old MC12 can do that...

I may be totally off base here, but there may be a licensing issue. Did MC12 include any other form of upmix other than L7; i.e. did it also include the DPL products?

The MC-12 has the usual checklist of surround processing modes licensed from Dolby (PLIIx), DTS (Neo:6) and THX (MC-12 is THX Ultra2 certified). The Bryston already has the first two of those (PLIIx and Neo:6), so I'm not understanding what "licensing issue" you're referring to.

Not unlikely at all. I'm also guessing that Harman wants to move forward and not spend resources on implementing a "legacy" technology (L7) that supposedly is "replaced" by QLS...

I'd guess the same: L7 is in their past, they want to move to implementing QLS (even a scaled down version).

As I stated, I was not sure if there was a licensing issue, especially since I was not familiar with the surround processing modes available with the MC12. In technology, sometimes companies will not license a particular technology for a product if said product already contains a competitors technology. I have no idea if that ever happens in this sphere. Thanks for the info.

Then they should have picked a pre/pro with the processing power to do it! Otherwise, at least give their fans the Logic7 they enjoy so much. One more instance of Harman fracking up their whole upgraded pre/pro line (Lexicon and JBL Synthesis). No wonder so many cling to their MC-12s and SDP-40s.

Did you ever consider that maybe the Bryston SP-3 was the only viable option? The alternative might have been to keep selling the SDP-40HD as their flagship for one or two more years. That would not make JBL look good. They desperately needed to get the processor updated with something more up-to-date that takes 7.1 analog in and supports bitstream decoding. Most new customers probably don't know what L7 is, but will most certainly frown upon the lack of bitstream decoding and only 5.1 inputs.

Can you suggest a better alternative than the Bryston SP-3? We're all ears!

BTW, the updated Synthesis site still shows the SDP-40HD as available as an option next to the new SDP-45. While the Lexicon MC-12 is discontinued (and sold out?), JBL apparently has not discontinued the SDP-40HD yet. This makes a lot of sense since the SDP-40HD will work better for those customers that need L7 and/or legacy video signal support, or those that feel the SDP-45 is too expensive.
Edited by Peter Nielsen - 3/9/13 at 11:22am

You're assuming that proprietary surround processing is a high priority for JBL Synthesis systems. Apparently it isn't, which is something you're going to have to learn to deal with. JBL is fine using PLIIx to upmix from 5.1 channels to 7.1 outputs. IF they can add their surround processing later, that will be nice, but it isn't a priority.

Yes, I agree with your analysis; JBL was left high and dry when Lexicon screwed the pooch on the MP-20. As for a better alternative, nothing comes to mind since Lexicon decided not to simply produce the MP20 minus the superfluous video processing. By doing so Lexicon not only disappointed their many fans, they also lost a big contract with JBL to a competitor.

How do you know Lexicon is not working on a new processor behind closed doors. I know we haven't heard anything but I would like to know your source.

Kim

Lexicon and JBL are all part of Harman. Not sure what you mean by last a big a contract?

Even though they're all part of Harman doesn't mean they don't each have their own profit / loss centers. If nothing else, it's not exactly ideal for Harman as a whole to be sourcing an item from an outside company when they have their own company that's supposed to be an expert at producing that item.

There have been posts from some fairly reliable sources that indicate that Lexicon decided to basically start over rather than simply remove the video processing from the MP-20. Nobody said that Lexicon isn't working on a new processor. The problem is that if they're starting over again, it's going to be a while before they deliver anything.

I understand the benefit of leveraging your own internal resources. I was trying to understand the "big contract" statement. Harman has been outsourcing for years. Bryston and ATI for their amps for example. Now they leverage Crown (which is internal to Harman). Point is, Harman simply did not have a solution in house for a modern processor and had to leverage an outside partner (Bryston in this case).
Edited by adidino - 3/13/13 at 12:20am

Exactly! But why did they have to turn to Bryston? Because Lexicon fouled-up on the MP-20, AND did so again (IMO) by refusing to just drop the video processing, which would still have kept JBL Synthesis as an in-house customer. IMO, at this price range, NOBODY needs a built-in video processor in their audio processor. There are far better (and cheaper) separate video processors out there that don't require a long-term investment in a pre/pro. Bryston does not include video processing in their SP-3 and nobody thinks it is lacking as a high-end pre/pro. I just don't understand the thinking at Lexicon on this issue. Maybe somebody here with inside connections can explain it to me.

The SSP-800 can do that. Define the speaker config (can make up to 6 different ones), then map it to the desired input.