Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 6

I think the guy is out of his mind! 'Compamy going down in flames' because they are discontinuing / discounting a 5 year old (or more) product???

Talk about a tight wad!

They are like Theta, discontinuing hardware nobody wants before they close it out!!

As I said, that dude, the one out of his mind, likely has been reading your Theta bashing for years and decided to mimic you on Lexicon. He's probably a Theta luver (like me) - But no, I ain't that dude. Now since you ditched your Lexicon several years ago, you certainly could be THAT DUDE!

If listening to stereo with two speakers is considered critical listening, I, too, am giving up critical listening.

At the recommendation of a new audio acquaintance (someone I "met" on AVS), I very recently tried one of the Neural Surround modes on my SSP while listening to stereo. What a HUGE improvement in listening pleasure...and while it is only my opinion, I also consider it a much more realistic "visit" to a performance.

Regardless of the abilities of a two channel system to throw a wide soundstage, the sound, at best, always comes from 180 degree area in front of and to the side of the listener. When I attend the symphony (Season tickets for the last 20+ years) or even a live concert, the sonic signature is MUCH more enveloping than that.

Whether it is more "accurate" or not may be arguable, but the fun factor is far superior. It does not do much for really dry studio recordings (like the last cut on the Diana Krall CD - Live in Paris), but for most everything else, much more enjoyable

I'm not going back.

Sorry for the off-topic jump.

Hate to tell the dude what I got for my MC12B. Frankly, obsolete pre/pros don't fetch much in the used market.

Rod, even though I own a Lexicon processor, I have not turned my in. My impression in talking with the factory is that the dealer will be given an allowance for the trade in unit. That allowance then lowers the dealer cost of the new equipment. In that sense, the dealer simply has more margin to work with in offering the equipment to you. If the dealer was going to discount the MSRP before, I suspect they can still do so, assuming they pass on the trade in margin to you dollar for dollar.

As you may know, some car dealers do this differently and give you artificially higher trade in value for your used car but then won't discount as much since their margins are then lower. I don't know how many Lexicon dealers will do that but I assume it is a possibility.

Again, this is my rough understanding. Details of the trade in program is not yet finalized.

Unless the orchestra has moved musicians behind you what you are hearing is the superior acoustics of the concert hall vs your home listening environment. A good surround system can mimic a concert hall to a degree, though results will vary by recording and your listening room. In fact I would go so far as to say that the biggest single factor in reproducing a "live" performance is the original recording itself. That said, I continue to find listening pleasure in both 2 ch and surround, depending on the music and my mood. I especially enjoy music videos using surround, and some CDs sound good in surround.

The beauty of a well recorded/reproduced 2 ch listening experience is that it requires a willing listener to be a more "active" participant with the music. If you are familiar with the work of Marshall McLuhan you will know what I mean. McLuhan postulated that a "cooler" medium, which provides less information, requires the perceiver to mentally "fill in" information while a "hotter" medium, which gives more information, requires less such mental activity. McLuhan emphasized this comparision between television (hot) and printed material (cool), but the principal can apply to any form of communication. The mental "filling in" of information by necessity makes the listener more of a participant in the communication event and thus personalizes it more than otherwise. Since music is a medium that appeals to the emotions, such participation can greatly enhance the listening experience. I have found that to be quite true in my own listening. Watching a music video while listening in surround is a wonderful experience, but I am never fooled into thinking I am actually at the concert (or in the music video). Two channel listening, OTOH, when it is done well, can indeed make me feel like I am live at the event.

Hi Shawn,

I don't pretend to be an audiophile, but I never could understand why some enthusiasts equate two-channels with critical listening to music. In terms of realism, particularly for a room with multiple listeners, wouldn't a two-channel system be at a disadvantage in comparison to a multi-channel system? If so, shouldn't it be possible to have a reference home theater that is equally adept at playing movies and multi-channel music? It would then follow a multi-channel surround processor, such as this new Lexicon, could be the choice for both movies and music in such a dual listening environment.

Thanks.

Larry

They give you discounted pricing on a brand new unit based on how old or how advanced your version is. So, the more you paid (and the more advanced it is), the more the discount.

In the end, it was a complete rip off as Lexicon is easily had for 40% off MSRP.. Thats the discount I had for my 12B. The trade in deal is no better than what you can get from an aggressive dealer (plus you can sell your own for even more money).

Are you suggesting that Marshall McLuhan equated this

With this?

If so, could you please provide me a reference for it, since I don't see the logical connection, and I don't recall Marshall McLuhan ever making the connection.

However, his comment that the medium is the message raises far more interesting insights, especially when considering high-end audio, and the paradigms that pervade it (especially as it pertains to issues of $$$ and assumed performance, testing, and the focus on gear vs software).

"(plus you can sell your own for even more money)."

The trade in values have almost always be for well above market value. I think they ranged from about 60% of original MSRP all the way up to 100% of MSRP. During a trade in program the used market actually improves a little as some people will buy an old not traded in unit to use in the trade in program.

Shawn

"In terms of realism, particularly for a room with multiple listeners, wouldn't a two-channel system be at a disadvantage in comparison to a multi-channel system?"

Yes, and 2 channel is at a disadvantage even for a single listener.

"such as this new Lexicon, could be the choice for both movies and music in such a dual listening environment."

That is exactly why some of us have had Lexicon's for so long. They have always been built for multi-channel music listening.

Shawn

Talking about music in surround in a Lexicon thread is anything but off topic.

http://www.lexicon.com/downloads/mc1...ory-Design.pdf

Shawn

If the dealer was going to give you 40% without the trade in and refuses to give you more with trade in, that tells me they are not authorized to sell the gear and hence, can't get the trade in allowance from Harman.

The other reason might be that they negotiated a special price through Harman for you and given the additional discount, the option of trade in was taken away.

Either way, I can't imagine what you are saying to apply to just about anyone here.

BTW, on a personal note, mixing the words "rip off" and 40% discount don't go hand in hand in my book. Even if they gave you 10 cents for the trade in, you still had a darn good deal.

Amir,

Josh Lehman Doc DVD) as well as a seconD dealer sold them at 40% off. My Halcro was 30% off. Both authorized dealers. I've bought many SSPs and Lexicon is always easier to get at s better price. Nothing bad, just my reality.

The part of our brain that processes visual information is the same location where we process sound. It's no surprise that people sometimes reflexively close their eyes when trying to pick out certain sonic details, or enjoy music more when listening in a darkened room. So instead of comparing surround+video vs stereo, let's take the additional activity (watching a video) out of the equation. In which case, my experience has been the opposite of your's.

Stereo uses the room as a surround processor. Spatial cues in the recording originate from in front of you and the ambience/envelopment you hear is created by reflections. But these reflections provide cues that describe your listening room, not the original recording venue. Surround lessens the influence of the listening room in providing ambience and envelopment. Spatial cues originate from various directions around you, as they would have in the original venue.

I don't see how removing the original directionality of the recorded ambience AND adding more of the listening room's spatial cues can improve the impression of being at the original live event.

"I don't see how removing the original directionality of the recorded ambience AND adding more of the listening room's spatial cues can improve the impression of being at the original live event."

Ditto. The way I also hear it is well done 2 channel can give an impression of 'they are here' while well done surround is 'you are there.'

Shawn

If dsmith's theory was logical, then wouldn't a mono clock radio require even more listener involvement to fill in the greater missing information, thus provide for an even greater illusion of being there?

Sorry, that's just about the most absurd thing I've heard.

Shawn, I have to disagree with you on this one as this is the reason that I left Lexicon...to be clear, the trade in value that was offered to me in moving from an MC-1 to an MC-12 was so meager that I left the lexicon fold...I felt bunt by them and, to be clear, this is how I felt and clearly not how others, who took advantage of the trade in, felt...

Joel,

The MSRP of the MC-1 was $6,000. During the MC-12 trade in the MC-1 was worth $4,000 as a trade in. That is 67% of the MC-1s original MSRP.

Shawn

And that was worst case, only for folks that had paid full MSRP (who does?) for their MC-1.

Yes,

But as you recall, you were required to pay full MSRP of the new MC-12 if you used the trade in program - no discounts off the new model.... So at $15K MSRP, you got it for $11K net with an MC-1 trade in (Joel's case). Most folks could easily get as a new $15K Lex for $11K (~25% off MSRP) through a dealer and then sell their old Lexicon for a few thousand more. I felt the trade in was fair but you could do better if you wanted to.

"- no discounts off the new model.... So at $15K MSRP,"

When it was introduced the MC-12s MSRP was $8,995 and the MC-12Bs was $9,995. The MC-1 was worth $4,000 in trade in against them.

Shawn

I see. I was referring to the MC-12 HD trade in program. I don't recall the exact details, but I do recall you paid full MSRP minus trade in and that if you took the effort to sell your old piece yourself, you'd do better.

That said, I'm excited to see what Lexicon comes out with. I'm sure it will be a forward thinking design.

Wonder where they'll price a decked out model?? I can't imagine $15K is where they want to be today. I'd expect closer to $12K... but who knows.

That's rather simplistic and, in neurophysiological terms, more wrong than right. OTOH, I agree with everything else you posted.

I should have worded that better. I didn't mean to imply that the visual cortex and auditory cortex are the same, only that processing for both takes place in the cerebral cortex. Also, I had read that early-blind people can sometimes use parts of the visual cortex for things like language processing.