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Any one see the Lexicon MC-12HD replacement at CES? - Page 8

post #211 of 1296
It's a global economy and we have to deal with it. The good news is that the pressure for downward prices will squeeze the bargaining power out of unions which simply ask for unsustainable wages and benefits for anything they manufacture. The Big 3 are proof positive. I like to buy American products but price always wins. We need to reinvent and reinvest in our capitalistic ways... while we still can. We're smarter than the other guys (e.g. China, India)!
post #212 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Poindexter View Post
They can't even make a flashlight and market in California as "Made in the USA" because a single O-ring is being made in China and there is no company in the United States that makes the O-ring they need for the Mag-Lite.
Yes and California will soon ban that Maglight all together! The O-ring will be found to be made of cancer causing chemicals and some other group of hacks will find it doesn't meet some California energy efficiency standard!
post #213 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

It's a global economy and we have to deal with it. The good news is that the pressure for downward prices will squeeze the bargaining power out of unions which simply ask for unsustainable wages and benefits for anything they manufacture. The Big 3 are proof positive. I like to buy American products but price always wins. We need to reinvent and reinvest in our capitalistic ways... while we still can. We're smarter than the other guys (e.g. China, India)!

It's all about the budget right?!...and lift a bit more the pay checks for the CEOs...
post #214 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

It's a global economy and we have to deal with it. The good news is that the pressure for downward prices will squeeze the bargaining power out of unions which simply ask for unsustainable wages and benefits for anything they manufacture. The Big 3 are proof positive. I like to buy American products but price always wins. We need to reinvent and reinvest in our capitalistic ways... while we still can. We're smarter than the other guys (e.g. China, India)!

Even if wages were equal, the U.S could not match China's prices. They manipulate their currency to make that impossible. Also, they have stolen products of other countries, no development cost. They have shamelessly copied the mini cooper, http://jalopnik.com/382010/chinese-m...level-of-crazy, AND Jeep http://www.clonedinchina.com/2010/04...-wrangler.html I can not avoid all Chinese products but avoid as much as I can.

I heard a story from an African guy that I know. Do not know if it is true.
But he said that the way to catch a monkey is to stick a piece of fruit down the neck of a gourd. The fruit can go down but when the monkey clenches his fist to remove it, his hand is too big to remove. The monkey will not let go of his bounty. His greed keeps him there until the "trapper," show up. Seems to me, the Chinese are using American greed for cheap products, to make monkeys of us.
post #215 of 1296
Any updates on ETA?
post #216 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post
Any updates on ETA?

Probably not before the CEDIA tradeshow in September over Labor Day, but hopefully soon after.
post #217 of 1296
I guess they've given their new surround processing a name:

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Newscent...rShow2011.aspx
post #218 of 1296
"HARMAN’s QuantumLogic technology transforms any stereo or multi-channel audio source into an astounding 7.1 channel surround sound experience"

could just be Logic 7
post #219 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"HARMAN's QuantumLogic technology transforms any stereo or multi-channel audio source into an astounding 7.1 channel surround sound experience"

could just be Logic 7

Or not .
post #220 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

could just be Logic 7

Give it a new name and hope nobody notices?

BTW, it may be 7.1-channels for cars, but no such limitation for home use.
post #221 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Give it a new name and hope nobody notices?

You know them to be the same?
post #222 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

You know them to be the same?

Other way 'round, hence the comment that followed.
post #223 of 1296
This is what's filed under Harman's trademark for QuantumLogic:

Software, namely, for audio digital signal processing and conversion of dual channel systems to a multi-channel sound system or conversion from multi-channel to dual channel systems, improving the audio characteristics of an audio stream, creating virtual rooms that are perceived larger, extracting signal streams to enhance upmixing, processing monophonic signals, processing compressed audio signals, processing multichannel input signals, reducing noise and howling in input audio signals

And here is September 2010 interview exerpt from an interview with Harman's professional CEO Blake Augsburger:

What do CE pros need to know about Quantum Logic?

]People are really moving toward listening to music on iPods. We're concerned about all these kids who are growing up and they've never really heard what good audio sounds like. If you pontificate out 20 years you wonder why anybody who's been listening to compressed audio their whole lives would ever want to spend money on an audiophile system. It's a problem.

So we have algorithms and technology to decompress and put back in those components that we lost when we compressed the data. We're trying to implement that Quantum Logic technology into our consumer products. So if you plug your iPod into one of our processors the Quantum Logic will decompress it, put back the components and then when it plays it will sound like it was when it was recorded. I think it's going to be massive.

We're within 12 months from doing that and hopefully a lot sooner than that. We have working prototypes and now we're trying to put it into our next generation processors.

You will see the first reflection of that in our Mark Levinson and Lexicon lines. That will start to happen in early spring.





Sounds like it's Logic7( with expansion for more channels),ambiance/reverb generation, compressed audio decompression techniques and more all under one flexible algorithm.

Very interesting!
post #224 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Sounds like it's Logic7

Except that L7 worked like most surround processing technologies, by steering based on intensity and phase, while QL seems to work by separating the audio signal into dry and reverberant parts (streams).
post #225 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Except that L7 worked like most surround processing technologies, by steering based on intensity and phase, while QL seems to work by separating the audio signal into dry and reverberant parts (streams).
"Reverberant" I get, but "dry" audio? Sounds like you work at Stereophile (lol). Anyway, it seems to me they are trying to more accurately reconstruct the audio signal that is lost with typical lossy compression. I wonder if they are doing that by some type of interpolation, or by massaging the reconstructed signal in such a way it just sounds less edgy? Regardless, it looks like their target is MP3 and it's ilk, and I suspect it might not apply so much to home theater, which operates with a bitstream that is less lossy, or even lossless with BD. Then again they have to come up with something to justify the mega prices they put on their gear.
post #226 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

"Reverberant" I get, but "dry" audio?

Yes, dry as in the initial onset of a particular sound, before it is repeated (due to reverb, reflections, etc). Griesinger had done some research on similar processing (separating the audio into multiple streams: initial sound, early reflection, later reflections, etc) before retiring from Lexicon. Though he is not the source of their current surround processing, it uses a similar approach. DTS mentions something like that in their recent AES paper on surround processing, though they refer to the components as "direct" and "diffuse" sounds.
Quote:


Sounds like you work at Stereophile (lol).

Just because you didn't understand what I was talking about doesn't automatically make it audiophile voodoo (lol).
Quote:


Anyway, it seems to me they are trying to more accurately reconstruct the audio signal that is lost with typical lossy compression.

That's the restorer function. I was describing the surround processing.
Quote:


Then again they have to come up with something to justify the mega prices they put on their gear.

It's the same justification they've always been coming up with: proprietary surround processing and room correction. How predictable.
post #227 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Yes, dry as in the initial onset of a particular sound, before it is repeated (due to reverb, reflections, etc). Griesinger had done some research on similar processing (separating the audio into multiple streams: initial sound, early reflection, later reflections, etc) before retiring from Lexicon. Though he is not the source of their current surround processing, it uses a similar approach. DTS mentions something like that in their recent AES paper on surround processing, though they refer to the components as "direct" and "diffuse" sounds. Just because you didn't understand what I was talking about doesn't automatically make it audiophile voodoo (lol). That's the restorer function. I was describing the surround processing. It's the same justification they've always been coming up with: proprietary surround processing and room correction. How predictable.

If you had used the words "initial onset of sound" I (and every one else) would have known exactly what you were talking about. I have never heard the word "dry" used in any technical discussion of audio, but then I don't claim to be the expert you seem to be. Regardless, I did not mean offense, just taking a light approach to your post, and for that reason I don't think your put-downs were called for. In general I have found your previous posts to be reasonable, rational and respectful, so here's hoping I have misjudged you on this one. Anyway, bygones, and have a nice day.
post #228 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post
I have never heard the word "dry" used in any technical discussion of audio
You can always Google the term 'dry recording' (or even 'wet recording') and see what comes up.
One example: http://blog.pandora.com/faq/contents/323.html
Quote:
I did not mean offense, just taking a light approach to your post
And I was replying likewise.
post #229 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post
I have never heard the word "dry" used in any technical discussion of audio, but then I don't claim to be the expert you seem to be.
It's actually a pretty common term, but it's not equivalent to the initial onset of the sound, since in order to tell if an acoustic environment is dry or wet, you need to listen for a while (like 10 to 100+ milliseconds) to see if there is any reverberation.

Earlier algorithms like L7, DPL, and the Hafler matrix did similar things, but it sounds like Quantum Logic may take it to the next level. In the old days, the mono component (L+R) was considered the "dry" signal, and the difference component (L-R) was considered the wet signal.

This subject seems to need more explanation. I hope Lexicon will update their theory and design manual, which they discontinued after the MC-1.

--Andre
post #230 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

It's actually a pretty common term, but it's not equivalent to the initial onset of the sound, since in order to tell if an acoustic environment is dry or wet, you need to listen for a while (like 10 to 100+ milliseconds) to see if there is any reverberation.

If the initial onset of the sound has no reverb (by definition) then that is the dry part of the sound, even if it exists within a reverberant space.

But as long as we're splitting hairs :
Quote:


Earlier algorithms like L7, DPL, and the Hafler matrix did similar things,

I can assure you that neither PL nor Hafler evaluate the dry/reverberant aspects of the input signal. Hafler, being a passive matrix, evaluates nothing. PL (and PLIIx) only evaluates relative levels and degrees of correlation.
post #231 of 1296
OK, we're really splitting hairs here, because we're using fairly qualitative language to describe something a bit more complicated. Initial onset implies a time window, which may be shorter than the actual signal itself.

And it depends on what you mean by "evaluate." To first order, one can argue that L+R is the dry part of the signal, and the difference signal (whether L-R or phase shifted) is reverb, but only for a pretty simple acoustic model. That seems to be enough to extract the ambience part out of many recordings. Not all of it, but enough of it in enough cases to be useful, no?

--Andre
post #232 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

And it depends on what you mean by "evaluate."

By evaluate I mean your description: >>in order to tell if an acoustic environment is dry or wet, you need to listen for a while (like 10 to 100+ milliseconds) to see if there is any reverberation. Earlier algorithms like L7, DPL, and the Hafler matrix did similar things...<<

I was just mentioning that logic decoders and sum and difference networks do not evaluate sound in this manner.

Quote:


To first order, one can argue that L+R is the dry part of the signal,

Yes, that's true. I would not necessarily confine it to L+R, since dry parts of stereo recordings also exist in L and R.

Quote:


and the difference signal (whether L-R or phase shifted) is reverb, but only for a pretty simple acoustic model. That seems to be enough to extract the ambience part out of many recordings. Not all of it, but enough of it in enough cases to be useful, no?

It is very useful, as Hafler pointed out, to find a way to cancel out the main, coherent, mono parts of a stereo recording to reveal what's left--the ambience/reverb.
post #233 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I was just mentioning that logic decoders and sum and difference networks do not evaluate sound in this manner.

Ahh, okay, I understand and agree with you.

BTW, does anyone have any pointers to a DTS paper describing their latest version of Neo? Their AES paper on their room correction is really interesting on many different levels.

--Andre
post #234 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

OK, we're really splitting hairs here, because we're using fairly qualitative language to describe something a bit more complicated.

In retrospect, I probably should have used the term 'first instance' instead of 'initial onset'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

BTW, does anyone have any pointers to a DTS paper describing their latest version of Neo? Their AES paper on their room correction is really interesting on many different levels.

You could try another AES paper by JJ, where he talks about direct vs diffuse sound, which *may* explain some of the thinking behind the new Neo. BTW, I think he recently retired. So Neo:X may have been his professional swan song (a la Jim Fosgate and PLII).
post #235 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

BTW, does anyone have any pointers to a DTS paper describing their latest version of Neo? Their AES paper on their room correction is really interesting on many different levels.

DTS does room correction?
post #236 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

DTS does room correction?

I think it's still a work in progress, with no real product out yet, at least that's the way the paper reads.

--Andre
post #237 of 1296
So is this new platform for the Lexicon's pretty much confirmed or is there any chance they will go to vapor ware? Been a lexicon pre pro owner since 2004 and could not imagine looking elsewhere at this point. Currently have an MC-8B and would love to see what the next platform is like.

Also is Sept the earliest we are going to get an official word?
post #238 of 1296
As always, there is a risk that unfinished products don't make it to market.

What I can tell you is that all the indications are opposite of that. They have put a lot of resources on the project to finish it and folks tend to not do that if their heart isn't in it.

And yes, CEDIA will be the time to get a public snapshot of where the product is.
post #239 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post


]People are really moving toward listening to music on iPods. We're concerned about all these kids who are growing up and they've never really heard what good audio sounds like. If you pontificate out 20 years you wonder why anybody who's been listening to compressed audio their whole lives would ever want to spend money on an audiophile system. It's a problem.

So we have algorithms and technology to decompress and put back in those components that we lost when we compressed the data. We're trying to implement that Quantum Logic technology into our consumer products. So if you plug your iPod into one of our processors the Quantum Logic will decompress it, put back the components and then when it plays it will sound like it was when it was recorded. I think it's going to be massive.
I'm sorry, this sounds like BS to me. Music compressed with 'lossy' algorithms destroys data. It can't be recovered.
post #240 of 1296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post
I'm sorry, this sounds like BS to me. Music compressed with 'lossy' algorithms destroys data. It can't be recovered.
At the absolute, that is true but perceptually, some games can be played.

As an example, algorithms like AAC+ model the sound at encoding time and and decode time, restore high freqency data completely eliminated at encoding (at bit rates < 64kbps) by "band replication." In other words, they look at the high frequencies that are still there (say at 10 KHz) and using different profiles add in high frequencies in unison with those. The perceputal effect is the music sounds closer to the original because it is no longer muffled due to lack of high frequencies.

At higher bit rates these techniques are not necessary but people have come up with various schemes to improve the perceptual feel nevertheless. Qsound and SRS have had schemes for these for many years as did Yamaha. In my last job, I would hear about schemes like this once or twice a year. None can undo or even predict what has happened in compression domain. So instead, they focus on simply improving the overall fidelity with say, better separation, more subjective bass (turning up lower frequency harmonics), etc.

Similar schemes exist for video for example in how film noise is filtered out and then put back in using profiling.

My personal reaction has been to notice the pleasant improvement initially just to be annoyed over time due to exaggerated compression artifacts. But for average consumer, that may not be as much as a factor, given how many people probably leave things like SRS on TVs on.
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