New 2.35:1 Silver Fire screen project.

First off, welcome Mr Gate!!!! Glad you are going the DIY route, and you are in the right place to find the good info. While I am relatively new at the game here, I will give you as much Info as I know.

technically speaking, the mirror is going to be your substrate, so whatever you put behind it is your choice. I dont want to overstep my boundaries here as there are others here including MM that know much more than I do, but if you are just looking for some thing to go behind the mirror, either go with something as lightweight and rigid as possible (for a movable screen) or just put the mirror straight on the wall!!!! I would consider 1/4" MDF for a more ridgid surface to put the mirror on. the MDF will tack well with whatever you use to glue the mirror on and it will be one of the smoother options out there. if you want lighter weight, Im sure there are some 1/8" backings.

A more important question is what are your plans for screen size? Are you sticking with the current 85"? with the 2.35, while you are at it, may be a fun/good idea to see what you can do with having a manual masking system to allow the current 85" 16:9 and then a movable curtain assembly that will allow you to stretch to a 2.35:1 setup. Can you tell I have thought about this? Hindsight is 20/20 i guess

For the sprayer, I bought the wagner cs DD at home depot on the REAL cheap and LOVE IT!!! It puts the paint out quick but not too bad that you cant compensate for it. I ended up after the screen painting the whole theater room with it as well and while there is some heat buildup, as long as you stay on top with cleaning it out, its perfect (did i mention its cheap?) I plan on using it for many more projects and IMO, not having and additional hose/piece to lug around, it makes moving across whatever surface you are painting THAT much easier

I can't believe I'm up so early!

I would strongly suggest using a 98" x 48" x 1/4" sheet of SINTRA again as your Substrate. It's ability to accept paint directly also lends itself to adhesive.

Cut 3" off the Top to create a 45" high sheet. Take the 3" x 96" strip and cut it down to 2- 45" pieces.

Glue the Mirror to the 45" x 96" Sintra, centered between the 45" height. Use a "Adhesive Caulk" like White Lightning or similar Poly-Acrylic. Let the adhesive dry overnight.

Attach the assembly to the wall using Drywall Screws ran through the 3" border.

Attach the 45" x 3" "wings" on each side in the same way.

Mask off around the Screen starting at the edge of the Mirror all around.

Spray away.

Build & apply your 3.25" Velvet Wrapped MDF Base Screen Trim directly onto/over the Sintra Borders, butting the edges of the Trim against the edge of the Mirror using a powered Trim Nailer or hammered-in 1.5" Bright Finish Nails. Set the nails below the Velvet using a Fine-Tipped Nail Set.

As the Beastly One stated, the Wag'ster DD is very multi-use. It does spray paint with a high degree of vigor that requires you to adjust speed to compensate, creating "Dusters" that provide each subsequent coat the tack-able surface needed to hold onto the paint. Heat build-up in the Gun's Spray Head won't be an issue for your smaller screen, but cleaning the Gun after each coat is still highly recommended.

The Gleem No-Name unit is perfectly fine to use as well. Either Gun simply requires you find the best viscosity to allow the paint to flow freely, and then a short amount of practice to familiarize yourself to the "lay-down" properties the Gun produces.

When a Mirror is involved, 2 Dusters and no more than 3 light coats is the suggested amount to apply. If your err in the amount of paint applied, err on the conservative side. Applying more Dusters, or another full coat because you swept through the others too quickly is better to deal with than having to wipe down the runs that come with too heavy an application.

I also suggest that you overlap each row by at least 70%, especially the Dusters. With the newer Electric Sprayers, and their increased rate of flow, it's better to move quicker...create a more "Duster-like" coat where each row's overlap is what fills in the needful areas, not heavier coats. such a overlap also eliminated horizontal bands that come from the areas between the rows being sparser, while the center of the Row gets significantly more paint.

The latter really should not happen if the paint is thinned properly. When you shoot a practice run (...I hate the word "run"...) and then each time you start a coat, also shoot on the masking to the side to check how even a vertical strip your producing...you should with the proper speed and distance lay down very evenly applied coats.

Be advised that the first Duster is not a "covering coat" and will only make the Mirror look "very hazy". The 2nd Duster will fill in a bit more...perhaps to the extent you can no longer see any degree of reflection at all.

By the 2nd full coat you should be looking at a pretty good looking surface. a 3rd lightly applied coat with 70% overlap usually will complete the process.

I got your PMs, and the reference about the Wagner Plus.

That is the unit I use, and it's even more robust and multi-use a sprayer than the Double Duty. As such, I use the Spray Heads that came with the original Wagner Control Spray...that have smaller needles. Shoot...I even bought two more original Wag'ster CSs' just to have spares!

I had to do that because the "Front End kits' sold now are the DD/Plus heads...not the "Original CS" variety.

Yeah...I have that advantage. . My spray patterns are more fine than the "splatter-y" ones seen posted. But even so I still gotta scoot across the surface least those finer droplets leave me runnin' for a wet rag! The additional pressure output of the Plus make caution and practice all the more essential.

Lastly, the presence of the "Hose" is something to consider on any "Hose-fed" Gun. You have to hold it over your shoulder and/or out at arm's length to avoid stepping on it, cutting off the air pressure, and having the Gun "cough out" a blob of paint. But the Hose-fed units never heat up at the Spray head, and so being, I find it not necessary to break them down to clean them during the "Duster" phase when those ultra thin coats take only 20-30- minutes to dry under good conditions.

I still do clean the Gun when I'm waiting a hour between coats.

While the Plus is an excellent unit, what it does require is more care and observance as far as speed, distance from the work, and getting viscosity right. But a big advantage is how fast it can get the job done. 2x faster than almost anything else, due to the volume of paint being shot.


No it does not, and a 1.5 mm Needle would be optimal. I think however the Gleem unit has a 1.8 and a 1.0, while the CS-DD and Plus share a whoppin' 2.4 mm thingee.


I know. Ideally, one would purchase both the CS-Plus or DD, and a older CS unit. But that would be asking a lot from those already choosing DIY for budgetary reasons.


Well consider this:
1. You'd have to thin the paint more, and still be just as quick and precise in your spraying technique.

2. Your only extra advantage would be producing a finer spray, and with the greater pressure...a taller vertical spray pattern.

Personally, I think extra practice and familiarization with the unit of choice is your best answer short of incurring the extra cost....because even if you do spend...you'll still need to practice anyway.


The change up, use Brown Hardboard (rough side). Make sure that side is free of dust. Cut as directed before. Apply adhesive in think beads but trowel out to smooth. Carefully "slide-skate" on the Mirror (w/Plastic still on it...) in you stocking feet, and "feel for any lumps and press them out. Let the assembly dry as long as possible.

Since I make actual screens out of TWH, and utilize the shiny, ultra smooth surface as a form of "White Fusion"..... I'd venture to say yes.

So go at it with some care and whoop....there it is. Perfectly good extra screen.

Hey...and you then flip it over, cut it down and glue the Mirror to it.

I'm good.

No. Since the size of the needles are the same, all you'd be getting is a "spare", not something that would impart a different spraying condition.

I remember how first I was excited at the prospect of having both be interchangeable, and then how crappy it was to find out a few months later that Wagner had discontinued the original CS FIK. For a while there, everything was just about as perfect a situation as could be hoped for.

That is a reason I have advised many to consider the "No Name" HVLP (Graco) spraying on the Gleem site, since at least it's largest needle is still smaller than what comes with the CS-Plus & CS-DD. Simply put, for those who are trying to get perfection as easily as possible, a smaller needle size combined with the correct paint viscosity helps achieve such all the more easier.

One last possibility is to search for a and purchase the older CS unit if it's priced reasonable. I still do that myself...if I encounter one on the self somewhere...it instantly becomes "mine". Check your local HD/Lowes. You might get a surprise! Otherwise.............

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Product.../dp/B000DZBP60

NewGate88;

the best combination would be to use the DD or Plus with the original CS head unit. the reason being that both those newer units can push more AIR through the smaller head unit... therefore a finer mist can be accomplished than what comes with the larger heads on the new units.

me personally, i only have the original CS, but found it lacking the power to push the metallics through the smaller head unit. i did not want to purchase the DD for the power just to use the CS head units i already owned. fortunately, mine came with an additional head unit.

so i slightly modified one of the head units on my CS from 1.5 to about 1.7. so that i got a fuller, wider spray.

my painting technique, from a different perspective, i look for a 9-12 inch tall spray pattern and i work from about 18-24" from the screen with the same 60% overlap.

there does come a point, in my opinion, when you can dilute this mix too much with water, and it goes from a fine mist to water splatter.

as for the Graco. from the posts i've seen, and not having used it, i get the feeling the Graco is putting out far more paint than any of the wagners. which means less room for error when it comes to viscosity and runs.

Hold on...reply being laboriously pecked out....

PB...PLEASE do not suggest that anyone use such a distance.

Well, it's like this.

I used the original CS for some time, and thinned the paint considerably to do so. I achieved almost glass smooth finishes....but I also managed to encounter a few instances of Runs and sagging in the process. Over a short time I realized I had to use a technique with widely overlapping Finish coats applied at a reasonably quick speed to avoid such torment.

Then Came the "Plus"...or rather a even more robust version sold in Australia. I found that one waiting for me there, pre-purchased by a New A/V Dealer. I did cart my own CS with me, but the New Dealer was going to have to make due with the bigger Wagner anyway, so I tried it.

wow.

It delivered so much pressure the Gun actually had a degree of recoil when the trigger was depressed. The spray pattern was at least 14" tall! I was overjoyed at how quickly it got the first coat on a 110" Light Fusion Mirror screen done. Say, like well under a minute!

Yes, I was tickled pink.......until I came back 10 minutes later and saw a veritable waterfall of 12" long runs cascading down the entire length of the Screen. In fact, several layers of them, each representing an individually painted horizontal row.

I felt first like a complete idjit...then I got depressed because I had traveled almost 9000 miles and it looked pretty hopeless to get much of anything worthwhile accomplished. Australian Beer is good...but it's no compensation when one is considering slashing one's own wrists!

But I settled down and reasoned it out. I "washed" the paint Mirror off, and went at it again, this time increasing my distance out to 14"-16" and moving at 3' sec.

The "Duster" coat was born!

Then I thought..."Hey...why is this thing such a "Dump Gun" of a HVLP? I then noticed that the size of the needle tip was MUCH larger. Where the original CS came almost to a barely blunted point, the CS-Fine Spray looked like the end of a slightly used Crayon !

I noted that the Front End connected just the same way as my own CS, so I exchanged them...and what a difference!

But even then I had to still allow for the extra pressure...and not go nearly as slowly as I had to with the original CS.

I came home, bought a CS-Plus, another CS Front End Kit (...I left my other one in AU for the Dealer to use....) and from that point on counseled anyone interested in purchasing a "Plus" to also get the older Front End Kit.

That worked out well until the Double Duty came out, then Wagner discontinued the original FIK, and started phasing out the original CS as well.

So there it is...the History of the Wagner CS as lived by MississippiMan.

Now back to the present.

• Using the original CS, you must add water until you approach almost 30% water to Paint mix volume. That's a lot...but required to get the pattern up to 12" from 14" away.
• At that viscosity, it becomes required to move no slower than 2' per second when applying a "Finish Coat".
• With the CS-Plus, water content can be less by about 25% (24 0z max)
• You must "Duster" any surface first...preferably at least 2x before trying to apply a "Finish level" coating. And "Finish Level" coatings still need to be applied at 2' per second from 12" -14", or 1' per second from 16"
• When you are getting a 12" tall pattern, a 60%-70% overlap means you only drop the Gun down 4" to start another row.
• Using the Original FIK on a CS-Plus only means you will have a smoother finish, more Glassy-like...rather than it looking like a Finish Foam Roller applied coat.
• The Graco (No Name) only requires that you apply the paint with the same procedure as you do using a CS-Plus or DD. Only with the Graco, you can get/exchange needle sizes.

The CS-Double Duty can do an excellent job used under the aforementioned parameters.

If you get the Original CS...you must instead thin the paint almost more than you think reasonable, and then practice to see how much and how well it's laying down. That is the only safe way to go about it. But without a doubt, the original CS is a good choice to use...so if that is your choice, you'll get a fine screen for the effort.

All in all, using any version of the Electric HVLP Guns represents a far less expensive proposition than standard HVLP rigs. And in any case, with the conventional Rigs, you still must thin the paints, and use 1.5mm needles if at all possible. I started out using 2.2mm needles with my big rig, and 45 psi at the Gun. I DID NOT thin the paint at all. So my first screens had a very "Sand Papery" texture.

If you spray from too far away, and/or move too fast, that is what kind of finish you will wind up with as well. It's not really desirable even if it looks perfect, mostly because the surface will not suffer any cleaning well. Wiping or rubbing can and will smooth out the texture and leave you with a "shiny spot" that while not noticeable when projecting an image, is quite apparent when the Screen is viewed under room lighting.

Summery:

No matter what Gun you use, there exists a method in which to use it properly for the application. And practice does help to make perfect.

With one using a smaller needle.....yes. Otherwise it's purely a cost and availability consideration between the Plus and it. If one is doing a BIG screen, or wanting to use the Sprayer for other projects where the paint will require less thinning...the Plus is the best one overall.

On the other hand, if one wants versatility in a single sprayer, the Graco, with it's interchangeable needles is an excellent choice...and becomes almost an irresistible one at just under $50.00

Beyond/past that...the CS-Pus w/ a CS Front End is still a World Beater. When the Gracos' are all gone, there will again be only two Players on the Field...the CS-DD and the CS-Plus.

I was actually thrilled with the output. the trick was too not thin it TOO much as is necessary for the regular CS. ended up doing the whole room after the screen with the DD and with the right viscosity, paint goes on smooth as Butta.

I masked off a very large area, I won't know if I did enough or too much until I get the masking down.

I will say that once I was done spraying a coat, there was a haze in my entire basement. I left my respirator with disposable disks on for a while and opened some windows while I cleaned up after a coat. I covered just about everything in site with plastic to protect it.

given the pics of the graco coats... and the striping that i'm seeing... actually i would suggest about 16-18"... though maybe stay away from the 24" unless you are doing some really light dusters. the pics also suggest not as much overlapping is happening either.

i adopted the technique due to the fact i needed to do super fine and smooth dusters for rear projection.

---

oh by the way... saw some original control sprays in the chicago area this weekend... $68

I did the Graco, Gleem no name.

At 14" distance, my spray was only about 8". I put tape on the floor to help me stay the right distance.

I'm sure PB is talking about my application, I could not come close to getting the proper overlap, I was too scared after that first run but I really tried. I just couldn't trust myself. I feel like I can see some striping in my application so that just confirms it.



If I can relay any advice, find something real to practice on and get your technique down and get a lot of light on your surface so you can see that paint hitting the screen. Perfect that Mississippi shuffle and handling the hose so you don't trip and keep going smoothly

I just took down my plastic, I would say I went a bit overkill but for how easy it goes up and how easy it goes down, can't hurt!

yea, dont do that. I would seal off the room pretty good and get something at least on the wall you are using to paint the screen and the floor. I noticed that while most of the paint that flies around the room is dry by the time it sticks to anything, its still a Bia to clean off anything it settles onto. just get some thin ply plastic and some of the paper roll to cover the floor and you are good to go. When i did the whole basement, the dust even traveled up the steps and got on the floor of the room above!! crazy!

The FACG is specifically for creating warm Flesh tones. If a Mix appears ever so slightly tilted toward Blue-Gray, introducing a light colored Gold helps remedy that. But recently I have found that with the latest mix increments, less has been needed. And adding too much can shift the Gray shade into a vague "Browni-ish" tint...and you don't want that. So adding it in when necessary and incrementally is always better than just dumping it in all at once. If it's needed, and you add some and stir, you can see the Gray cange immediately, so by adding it slowly you can easily avoid any reverse issues.


A "Pencil thick" pour stream is a little to little. More like the rate you'd use how you would pour milk slowly into a smaller glass.


Any normal consistency Latex paint (water based) will do. I'm not so sure the Rustoleum is water based.


Not if it is adhered well and left to dry completely before you start moving it about. Also, avoiding flexing it too much (bending) is a good idea. The most important thing is to use enough adhesive, and spread it out evenly, then after laying down the mirror like you would a "Decal", gradually from one side to another to avoid trapping air underneath, you then carefully press down and "skate" on the surface in y6our Stocking Feet, using your foot's tactile touch to feel any lumps of adhesive and therein flatten and spread them out.


1.5mm is ideal. With a 1.0 mm Needle you'd have to thin the paint all the more, and your pattern height would be smaller. With such thin paint, and a reduced row size/width, the job would take longer, overlapping would be harder, keeping the smaller rows straighter would be more difficult, and because of all of the above, horizontal stripe-ping might be hard to avoid.


Finish Coats @ 1.5' - 2' second at 12"-14" with same overlap. Speed always is related to viscosity. If the mix seems very loose, and is applying quite readily during the Duster-phase, doing the initial Finish Coat at a higher rate of speed is always going to be safer, and as you build up the paint coating, the next coat can always be put up a little heavier (within the stated 1.5" sec. limit of course)


I'm glad you asked, although when this Post popped up on my Phone while I was "beached" it did make me sigh at the prospect of the needed
long" reply. Oh well, I do make my own Bed on here, don't I?