Netflix Streaming Jitter - Page 2

Samsung netflix servers? I would be surprised if such a thing actually exists.

My guess would have been that all netflix capable devices, from all manufacturers, contact netflix servers directly. I don't think any of Netflix's content or browsing interfaces are delivered from servers under someone else's control.

Perhaps Samsung's app menu is delivered from a Samsung server. If that is the case, the netflix servers could be up and running just fine but Samsung devices wouldn't be able to access the Netflix app unless the samsung servers were working.

Netflix does have different servers for different devices. At times you'll see this when one title will stream fine via one device and not another. A while back I ran across this issue and they had me test a couple of TiVo servers. The IT Crowd (Series 4) wouldn't stream on TiVo but played fine elsewhere.

Ahhh... I must have misunderstood what frascati meant by a samsung server. I thought he was referring to servers administered by samsung.

Can anyone confirm or deny if there are actually different servers for different devices? I would guess that they are specific per stream type, not per device/brand. Because the PS3 receives different streams, I suppose this could be considered a server for a particular device. But a more accurate description would seem to be that of having different servers for different stream types.

Otherwise, imagine the number of different types of servers that would be required. Netflix server farms are distributed across all geographic regions in which netflix is sold. I can't imagine having an "LG server" and a "Samsung server" and a "Roku server" in every single location of that distributed network. Hence the assumption that servers are dedicated to stream types rather than devices or brands.

Whether it's by brand, encoding or whatnot I think the jest is that different players will hit different servers. Such that one brand of player may have an issue and another won't. In my case (when I reported the issue) Netflix stated there were two TiVo servers and we tested both of them. If there were only two I could access based on my location and if they streamed any other feeds I have no way of knowing.

As far as the number of servers based on my background (managing Internet servers for over 15 years...) I think you would find a ton of servers at each location. How they are scaled appears to be a well maintained trade secret. And to a large degree irrelevant since the sum of all streaming however distributed is still the same (load).

Found a related blog entry at Netflix (rather old)...

Streaming Performance

Recently some Netflix members using Roku or Xbox movie players noticed lower quality streaming than they had experienced earlier. This was a temporary issue that we believe we have resolved. Working with our content distribution partners and key carriers, we made some specific changes that should restore everyone’s experience to where it was before – high quality streaming.

http://blog.netflix.com/2008/12/stre...rformance.html

The above sounds like a throttling issue to me...

Much better blog entry!

http://blog.netflix.com/2009/03/netf...onsistent.html

Different Content, Different Devices, Different Characteristics

Finally, different titles, and different encodes for different playback device types, may come from different CDNs or different servers at a particular CDN, so may have different paths and different bottlenecks. Accordingly, customers may see better performance on Xbox than their PC, or vice-versa. Equivalently, some titles may stream unaffected, while others suffer congestion. There is no purposeful discrimination between different clients – we want them all to perform very well.

Lots of good stuff in this entry.

Good info! No argument about that. My post can probably be characterized as a nit-pick. But hey, this is AVS forums. What else are we supposed to do?

If we don't have direct knowledge of different servers per brand or device, I think a more precise description would be that of different server pools for each type of stream. Otherwise, people reading this thread might be left with the impression that there is indeed, a set of servers dedicated to Samsung netflix streams.

I don't know for sure either way. But it seems highly unlikely that serving duties are segmented to that high of a degree.

My take is that their explanation is almost correct. It is probably correct enough to satisfy most people on the phone.

However it seems likely that the samsung server merely handles the menus for choosing between apps. Once a stream has been initiated, that stream is delivered from servers that are completely under netflix's control. Just imagine the mess that would result if every brand had to maintain their own set of distributed server farms and then to negotiate bandwidth with the likes of Comcast. As far as I know, netflix is handling all of this.

Are they saying that the netflix browsing interface is being delivered from a non-netflix server?

Just curious, NetFlix hasn't gotten any better, and you seemed pretty sick of it, so have you dropped your subscription yet?

I personally still use Netflix primarily as a mail service for DVDs and Blu-rays --- for real geek-out purists, HD streaming probably won't compete with Blu-ray quality for many years (especially since it's not solely a matter of compression technology, as it's also hampered by DRM quibbles, bandwidth, etc.). Even a well-mastered DVD displayed with a good scaler can still offer better quality than most streaming HD encodes, since perceived quality is a matter of many more factors than just raw resolution (in fact, using the same codec and constrained bitrate, a movie encoded in SD will often have more perceived detail than one encoded in HD).

I'm not the 'need it now!' type, so for me Netflix streaming is just a cool bonus that, unfortunately, ends up not being much of a bonus at all; I'm also a little peeved that my Netflix bill keeps inching up, purely to support a feature that is essentially unusable. It's also the fact that I do support Netflix and have been a fan of their service for almost a decade, that they're supposed to be the leader in this field, and yet they really seem to be dropping the ball. Amazon offers 5.1 sound, decent streaming, and a download-model that allows for butter-smooth playback. I abhor Apple, but iTunes also offers 5.1 sound, 1080p content, and has no playback issues. Heck, I recently discovered a site called Mubi.com that has some fantastically esoteric stuff, and even they have better quality playback. Right now, because of their stuttering issues, the unacceptable VHS quality of the Starz encodes, and their audio limitations, I'd say Netflix is in the bottom of the pack, ahead of only Greencine and Blockbuster's VOD quailty (which, oh boy, is not saying much).

Netflix needs to sit down with Starz and establish some stringent quality guidelines, realize how backwards it is to offer something like Battlestar Galactica in HD but with only 160kbs stereo sound, and to completely fix their frame-drop issues, even if that means dropping Silverlight all together. Simply, they need to slow down: they keep adding more and more content without improving the underlying service. Now, if the rumors are true and they end up removing mail service entirely in favor of streaming --- and if they still have the same issues --- then I'll drop 'em like a sack of potatoes.

Also, this isn't even to mention how most of these guys (Netflix, Amazon, iTunes, Vudu) only offer most of their HD content to stand-alone devices, and then hide behind the excuse that this is due to 'licensing issues,' implying that it's just too easy to pirate content off a HTPC. Of course, the reality is that they're receiving kickbacks to 'push' new devices to consumers; after all, when an enthusiast goes out and builds their own HTPC, nobody earns any inflated profits off the branding royalties! It's particularly insufferable with Amazon, as they limit the most of their content to stand-alone devices --- the very same devices that, of course, Amazon themselves just happen to sell. Beyond quality issues, the real dark cloud on the horizon is huge vertically-integrated corporations trying to squeeze out HTPCs altogether, in favor of 'monopolizing' all content to their own hardware.

A quick update for anyone who cares ---

Microsoft released a beta of Silverlight 5 a few days ago, and lo and behold, Netflix is butter-smooth now.

Flanger-- I'm having the jitter issue with a PC hooked up via HDMI to my Epson 8350 projector. How did you get silverlight 5? I've got 4.0.60310.0, and only see the dev tools for 5. Thanks!

I'm also interested in the beta. I love my Roku, but I'd love to be able to use my PC also and get smooth playback. I've read the site and the Visual Studio 2010 stuff has me a little confused. Do I have to install all the development tools to get the Silverlight 5 beta application working?

Bump. My google search on this brought me here. I'm using a Roku so I don't believe I can benefit from any Silverlight updates. I see the jittering, for lack of a better term, maybe once or twice an hour and was curious what was causing it. I thought I might need more bandwidth, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I just ordered another Roku unit and am curious to see what happens on a different television. I haven't checked the titles referenced earlier in this thread for jittering but I assume I'll see the same things already reported when I do.

What were the movies that you observed the periodic jittering?

Off the top of my head: GI Joe, Easy A, Prince of Persia (a lot going on there), Ghostbusters 2, and Dead Like Me S1E1. It seems like I've seen it in most of the HD content I've watched from Netflix. It really looks like dropped frames. I've never bothered to go back and see if it always happens in the same places but I'm going to try that.

That's the first thing to check, do you always see the same problem at the same time code in a particular movie? If it doesn't happen consistently, the problem is likely an unreliable network or limited bandwidth to the netflix servers. If it happens consistently at exact spots in the same movies, then it is likely safe to assume that the problem exists in the video stream.

If the problem is indeed in the video stream, it could either be 24fps judder from the original capture, or it could be the transcoding jitter being discussed in this thread...

Watching an episode of "Luther" last night I noticed instead of the judder I was seeing more a "rolling shutter" effect. For those not familiar with the term it's something you see with inexpensive camcorders using CMOS sensors. CCDs would charge the whole frame and then encode that frame but the CMOS sensors are encoded a line at a time of the frame meaning that with a pan or something moving you'll see a wavy effect. Perhaps they think this is a better alternative to judder.

I bet they're trying all kinds of things to keep the bitrate down as the telecoms get more pissy about Netflix bandwidth.

Just saw a post in another thread that suggests certain Netflix devices may be configured to upscale Netflix HD 720p/60 to 1080p/60. 1080p/60 is a perfectly fine resolution over HDMI but it's unusual and some TVs may be trying to convert it back to 1080p/24, resulting in a weird "dropped frames" appearance.

If that's the case setting your Netflix streaming device to output 720p should fix the issue. Ultimately the problem may be in the display not knowing how to handle 1080p/60 input.

Or maybe I'm totally off base. That's possible too.

That's certainly possible but 1080p60 isn't unusual at all. In fact, most 1080 LCD panels run at 60hz. Video tends not to be encoded at 60fps but digital interconnect frequently use 60fps.

If a display were too dumb to support 1080p60 input, then it seems unlikely that it would have a 120hz or 240hz panel capable of making use of 24fps. Thus, if it were to convert to 24fps, it would then have to immediately convert back to 60fps.

Granted, 24p support can be rather poor. So perhaps this kind of insanity happens. Given how ludicrous that processing path would be, I would expect it on only the worst engineered TVs on the market, if at all.

Can anyone confirm if this has actually happened?

Duh, I just had time to think about this a little longer. Still worth checking out though, as there might be one of those 59.9xfps things hidden in the details.

At least on my Blu-Ray (BD390) Netflix switches between outputting 1080P24 and 1080P60. My assumption (admittedly without any real evidence to back it up) is that any xxxP24 source is output at 1080P24 and everything is output at 1080P60.

As I have previously noted the movies/shows that I have seen bad jitter on are all being output at 1080P60.

I too am upset by this problem.

My setup:
Samsung BD-P1600 player
Samsung LN52B630N LCD 1080P 120Hz
Ethernet connection to AT&T DSL Elite (6 MHz service) measured 5.1 MHz

When I first noticed this, I thought it could be my TV and/or Blu ray player settings. A couple of times when I made a change and replayed the same movie or TV program, the jitter disappeared. Aha, I said - problem solved. But later, it reappeared, not having made any configuration changes.
I have a different setup at another location:
Roku XDS player
Samsung 6-year-old 720P DLP TV
Ethernet connection to CenturyLink DSL (10 MHz service) measured 8.2 MHz
I've NEVER seen the jitter there.
Back to my BD-P1600 setup - Last night, the problem was severe, watching a "Battlestar Galactica" episode. This afternoon, I brought up the same episode and it played smoothly! Tonight it may be jittery again. This seems to point to a heavy server load at peak viewing times or getting the program from a different server, which may have a different streaming setup. Or I suppose a completely unrelated cause.

First: I get the jitter on streaming direct on my computer AND on my television (via a Sony blu-ray player), so it's NOT the blu-ray player or the TV...as it appears via both methods. My signal is averaging between 10 and 11 mbps for downloading.

Best example I have of the jitter (and it is subtle enuff that it might not bother some folks -- drives me crazy, renders movies unwatchable)..."The Asphalt Jungle" opening scenes. The first two scenes feature a cop car cruising slowly up two inclines. Not a smooth line...car is jittering ever so slightly back and forth. The third shot is of the same car crusing past a man, who's hiding behind a post...again, the car jitters. These scenes have become my personal test as to whether the problem has been solved. I have watched the same scenes on my iPod Touch with a week WiFi signal, and the picture is totally smooth/perfect.

Another variable: there is ZERO JITTER via my Hulu Plus subscription...!

Also...an interesting note. About three years ago, I was in the middle of watching a Netflix movie streaming on my computer. The streaming was perfect, no jittering. Then, suddenly, the movie stopped, and a note came up on the screen that I had to download Silverlight software to get it going. When I re-started the film, it was jittering, the first time I'd ever noticed it. I had to stop watching the movie.

I would have thought that Silverlight was somehow the culprit, but the fact that these flicks are jittering on my television via my Sony player -- a process that doesn't involve Silverlight -- has nixed that theory.

Finally, I never have any Netflix Streaming Jitter problems with TV programs, ONLY with movies (and not all of them, just most of them).

Since the problem clearly lies with Netflix - i.e. the source of the streaming signal -- and however it is being interpreted via my modem and/or ISP, N'flix should be all over this. I've repeatedly called them about it, and no one on the Netflix side seems to know a thing about it!

I'm going to give up for another six months and hope that a solution comes around.

JB

I saw this on some recent Doctor Who also, its seen to be my noticeable on some things from BBC. Judder can be lived with but this shuttering thing is something else.

I've been watching the BBC series "Survivors" which has judder in it. I am reminded of the conversions to Divx i used to do of HD TV shows. Before Dr. Divx was available where I could force 23.97 frame rate or it would detect that frame rate if the flags for it were in the stream (I think NBC was about the only network that had them) this kind of judder was what I would get when converting from 24 to 30 fps. It's actaully adding frames that aren't in the original.

Wow, I just saw this for the first time on a BBC series and it sucks.

I think there may be two separate issues. A lot of people seem to be reporting issues with BBC titles and what I saw looked a lot like a crappy PAL conversion (it was jerky AND it looked slightly speeded up too). Either way I reported mine as "unwatchable" since the Netflix feedback doesn't allow text entry.

That's disappointing to hear. That's been in my queue for awhile and was planning on starting it (I'm debating whether to watch Survivors or Jeremiah first, which sounds like the same concept).

It's not that bad to skip the series. It only occurs on some panning shots.

To clarify: it's not really unwatchable, it's just annoying (I saw it pretty much continuously, but agree that faster motion makes it worse and static shots make it bearable). Netflix's feedback screen only allows you to choose between some canned answers, and none of them apply, so I chose "unwatchable" as the best match.

Has anyone watched any streaming Star Trek: TNG episodes, which were just recently added to Netflix, and seen this issue? I am seeing the same ghosting/flickering/jitteryness during camera pans that I've seen in other SD material, but I'm not sure if it's the same issue described in this thread. For an example, watch the very beginning of episode 2x18 "Up the Long Ladder". I notice it right away when Riker walks over to the chair and sits down as the camera pans left to right. It's not dependent on playback device either.

Is this the same problem everyone else is noticing?