or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Audio theory, Setup and Chat › For all the mega buck cable devotees
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

For all the mega buck cable devotees - Page 3

post #61 of 668
Quote:


Ever hear of capacitive coupling,

ever hear of differential (balanced) signalling?
post #62 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDUPZ View Post

I'm sure your home audio system is much more "revealing", complex than a live giant 7 trailer trucks load of pro equipment! Are you on this planet? If you have yourself thinking you can hear the wires, you need to get educated. Before you are ripped off even more by slick mfgs of BS products. Namely all magic wire sellers, and ones that have better sounding magic twists and turns. I have 35+ years of electronics and electrical experience, in pro equipment that is even more technically complex than basic audio amplifiers and pre amps. The only way out of your mis guided beliefs, is education. those Rush videos are terrific, all that good sounding heavy gauge SOOW -SOWW wires, that take a beating every day and work just fine.

I don't recall seeing any of those big boomy "live event pro speakers" in recording studios around the world, do you? Yes, they are designed to play ridiculously loud, but revealing? Nope. You should have a listen to some Acapella speakers with the plasma Ion tweeter, Wilson X2/Maxx series 3 speakers, or Egglestonworks Savoy or Andra IIs and then tell me what you think of the dynamics, resolution of sound, detail, and sound stage created with zero distortion...then repost.
post #63 of 668
Sounds great theory. Perhaps you are subject to mind coupling, and you have read too many audiophile BS ads, and articles, by audiophile reviewers that hear the implausible, the impossible, and the imaginary. They make a living in story telling. Of course there is such things as capacitive coupling, not denying it. But when you apply theory that is not relevant to things, of which we speak. Magic wire makers love to throw out legit ideas, too bad they don't pertain to what their products are used in. I particularly like the "72V biased" wires, with a battery that has no load. Yeah not 12, not 24 but 72V is what sounds best. And of course every magic wire maker , have their own special twist and turn, and they all claim audio superiority. If you didn't know what magic wire was in use you couldn't tell what is what. Do some real live events, or studio tour as previously suggested. Quality well made wires, by legit mfgs, like Neutrik, Belden, Southwire, proco, etc. not the fluss nonsense sold by the "meter" with beautiful display boxes, that cost more than a length of quality durable real stuff. Wake up
post #64 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by razr67 View Post

ever hear of differential (balanced) signalling?

Uhhhh... I think so considering I have 11 balanced runs in my HT.
post #65 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDUPZ View Post

Sounds great theory. Perhaps you are subject to mind coupling, and you have read too many audiophile BS ads, and articles, by audiophile reviewers that hear the implausible, the impossible, and the imaginary. They make a living in story telling. Of course there is such things as capacitive coupling, not denying it. But when you apply theory that is not relevant to things, of which we speak. Magic wire makers love to throw out legit ideas, too bad they don't pertain to what their products are used in. I particularly like the "72V biased" wires, with a battery that has no load. Yeah not 12, not 24 but 72V is what sounds best. And of course every magic wire maker , have their own special twist and turn, and they all claim audio superiority. If you didn't know what magic wire was in use you couldn't tell what is what. Do some real live events, or studio tour as previously suggested. Quality well made wires, by legit mfgs, like Neutrik, Belden, Southwire, proco, etc. not the fluss nonsense sold by the "meter" with beautiful display boxes, that cost more than a length of quality durable real stuff. Wake up

I don't own any of the Audioquest power cords or interconnects with the 72v bias, however I do know they are quite good. They actually do have an effect on the dielectric, but you wouldn't know because you have never tried them.
post #66 of 668
When G-Rex is away the cheapskates come out to play.
post #67 of 668
Thread Starter 
Perhaps those pushing the magic (and all the other silly useless adjectives the audiophools want to use) should actually contact the manufacturing engineers at Belden, Canare, Mogami, Carol, American, Essex etc and do a wire by wire comparison of performance and signal propagation and degradation under lab conditions.

I guarantee you not one of these hawkers of cable BS will ever take them up on it.

I would also ask anyone believing in the magic cables to post the relevant specs for interconnects- balanced and unbalanced- and speaker cables in response to this post. I will in turn post the full set of unedited specs from Canare and Belden. Anyone? Bueller?

When you are decrying the quality and capability of a professional sound system, it would help your argument if you had even the slightest inkling of how they are designed, wired, installed and aligned.

Simply saying that a concert hall style system can't sound as good as your home "revealing" system (stifling a chuckle) does NOT make it so.

Try watching the entire video of the rush concert install. That is but one of hundreds of systems that are similar in capability and complexity.

So many terms such as capacitive coupling, cross contamination etc have been tossed out here by those who obviously have NEVER had any involvement with profession system design or operation.

BTW most stereo equipment equipped with balanced connection use differential (electronic) balancing and NOT transformer coupled. It is cheaper to produce BUT carries a lot of baggage as far as susceptibility to noise. Most pro systems do NOT use differential balanced inputs as the transformers afford a much greater immunity to noise.

Those of us in the industry are well aware of the system requirements, performance attributes and what is necessary to get the top performance.

Did you look at the link pics for the Capitol records studios? Notice any cable lifters? Notice where the control room speakers are mounted?

For many years, the Yamaha NS 10 speakers (white cone woofer)were used -and still are- in many studio control rooms. 150.00 ea. I had a pair in my old Dodge van for my cassette and FM system. You will never see 10,000.00 dollar /cabinet speakers in any control room as they simply are not necessary.

As pointed out numerous, times WITH PICTURES, the signal harnessing is in multiple pair snakes. AMF many companies now use fiber optic lines to handle multiplexed audio that goes through DAC remotely. It is also powered using stock power cables connected to the show power-either genset or grid from the building.

Mix desks are usually connected with all the line outs, monitor outs effects send/receive paths in a single snake to the auxiliary equipment racks.

It would seem rather obvious that if the professionals were concerned about "cross contamination" they would use the audiophool-grade cables etc. Amazing thing-they use the off the shelf stuff. Go figure.
post #68 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Uhhhh... I think so considering I have 11 balanced runs in my HT.

woosh

Quote:


They actually do have an effect on the dielectric,

What's the effect?
It's sad when one doesn't understand that a battery connected to an insulator has no effect.
post #69 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

G-Rex, someone already made a reply fitting perfectly to you so I'll just quote it. vvv

"you are just making yourself look like an idiot, dont jump into conversations when you know nothing about the topic at hand."

"gain some humbleness dude. before you make yourself look even more stupid..."

yeah those quotes were from me about you geekhd...





Matt
post #70 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post


For many years, the Yamaha NS 10 speakers (white cone woofer)were used -and still are- in many studio control rooms. 150.00 ea. I had a pair in my old Dodge van for my cassette and FM system. You will never see 10,000.00 dollar /cabinet speakers in any control room as they simply are not necessary.

up until this point you are spot on, but here you fell on your face..

the ns10 is a piece of garbage that was used only because producers were cranking the bass and the treble in the famous disco smile eq curve and they wanted a consistent mix. This led to hundreds and thousands of very poorly eq'd records that really sound like crap. and serious recording professional/engineer would never rely on the ns10s for serious mixing.

high end studios that deal with highly detailed recordings do in fact often use hifi speakers, you will find lots of studios with B&W 8 series, or high end dynaudios. also the dynaudio and jmlabs studio series speakers are of amazingly high quality. wilson audio, focal/jmlabs, B&W, dynaudio, all are staples of some pretty high quality studios. guess what abbey road uses? yep B&W 801s, not ns10s....

but then again you would know this if you spent time in any high end studios yourself. pop studios and places where they pump out rap and crap like that are no different then some idiot kid playing around with protools in his basement, they aren't going for sound quality they are trying to make hits. Studios that go after sound quality do in fact use hi end speakers for their monitors. like geekhd quoted me before, dont jump in and makes points on something you know nothing about. okay so you know FOH, and pro audio, that DOES NOT mean you know studio environments. and just because you have been in a few crappy studios that use ns10s, that doesn't mean that is what studios should be using or what studios that are run by top engineers and producers use... You feel flat on your face talking about studios, you don't know the studio world so leave it out of your discussion.

Did you know that there have been many high end studios that have used MIT and transparent audio cabling? i bet you didn't know that. and studios who's recordings i am sure you would fall all over for their clarity and detail... but again of course you didn't know that... talk about front of house cause that is what you know. Studios and front of house have some similarities but they are 2 VERY DIFFERENT worlds, and you OBVIOUSLY don't know the studio world. Leave it out of your debates before you make yourself look like more of an idiot.

yes you are right about all the front of house stuff, stay in that realm and you won't look like a know it all fool..




Matt
post #71 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Vai_rules View Post

yeah those quotes were from me about you geekhd...





Matt

No, really? Wow!

Care to answer a question I asked you? --> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post19867248
post #72 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Vai_rules View Post

high end studios that deal with highly detailed recordings do in fact often use hifi speakers, you will find lots of studios with B&W 8 series,

Which studios are these and which suite (dubbing, recording, mastering...) are those used in?
Quote:


Did you know that there have been many high end studios that have used MIT and transparent audio cabling?

Again, which studios are these?
post #73 of 668
Lets take a look at Blackbird Studio http://www.blackbirdstudio.com/#/studios/
Check out their client list: http://www.blackbirdstudio.com/#/clients/

How about Skywalker Sound (they do use B&W 802 in scoring control room but that's about it). http://www.skysound.com/about_techtour.html
post #74 of 668
Thread Starter 
Skywalker Sound and Paramount Recording both have Yamaha NS10s in the mastering suites. It is in the equipment list AND the studio pics.

There are many many more.

Here is some factual data on the NS10 story.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep0...yamahans10.htm

The tin foil hat needs some more foil.
post #75 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by razr67 View Post

woosh



What's the effect?
It's sad when one doesn't understand that a battery connected to an insulator has no effect.

"All insulation slows down the signal on the conductor inside. When insulation is un-biased, it slows down parts of the signal differently, a big problem for very time sensitive multi-octave audio.
AudioQuests DBS creates a strong stable electrostatic field which saturates and polarizes (organizes) the molecules of the insulation. This minimizes both energy storage in the insulation and the multiple nonlinear time-delays." AQ

There are engineers out there that actually use the DBS 72v (formerly 36v) and believe that it does effect the dielectric.

Rigging and unrigging hundreds of connections/systems weekly or monthly does NOT make one an expert in cable design.
post #76 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDUPZ View Post

The videos where great, I see now, 7 Trailers of their own stuff including speakers. And all the people to move and install, RUSH is a major operation

RUSH is a major operation, however that's a nice streamlined show, that's not really a real big show.

The gear is not theirs. Major acts don't own their own PAs. They rent everything, sound, lights boards, buses..everything other than the back-line and instruments. They don't travel with a large amount of people. They use local IATSE labor. A load in call, with loaders, pushers, riggers etc., a show call for follow spot ops etc., then hands for the show, then a load out call for tear out and for loading the trucks etc.

There are regional variations, but the show travels with a few, and they get the large percentage at the venue. The house will provide a lot of cheap labor for chair set up etc, and tear out. Sometimes the house provides power, sometimes the show travels with generator power. At times, this is a separate contract. Aggrekko is a major player in the temp power dept.
post #77 of 668
The fact that live event boom boxes are even being compared to upper echelon home theater/music or studio speakers is kind of scary. I am not talking about speakers like the NS10 either.

An interesting NS10 link:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep0...yamahans10.htm
post #78 of 668
My hat is lined with copper thank you.
post #79 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Uhhhh... I think so considering I have 11 balanced runs in my HT.

11 whoopie doo, that's some system, big deal. Do you know how many interconnects and plug ins and runs of cables in a live event? My own system has hundreds, and it's nothing compared to a live event. Both XLR and single ended, through dozens of pieces of equipment. And there is no magic wires, or magic power cords, or any of the other assorted "audiophlake" BS nonsense. Just high quality superb electronics and high quality WIRES, that means, they are correct for the function, and are the right length, and the connections are secure, and reliable. And that's what it's all about.
I hope you don't hear better sounding wall outlets, cus then I know you need to be de programed.
When I do some live recording I plug into whatever is on the wall for AC power, as does the band, and it sounds INCREDIBLE. I playback my LIVE DSD recordings at home and it's INCREDIBLE, my AKG mics condenser superiority use mic cables from a basic mic cable maker, cus they work, they are not noisy, they hold up from coiling and un coiling all the time, they have superior standard Neutrik connectors, one of the basic standards in the world.
post #80 of 668
Quote:


Rigging and unrigging hundreds of connections/systems weekly or monthly does NOT make one an expert in cable design.

No, but having a masters in EE does.

Quote:


"All insulation slows down the signal on the conductor inside. When insulation is un-biased, it slows down parts of the signal differently, a big problem for very time sensitive multi-octave audio.
AudioQuests DBS creates a strong stable electrostatic field which saturates and polarizes (organizes) the molecules of the insulation. This minimizes both energy storage in the insulation and the multiple nonlinear time-delays." AQ

This is called sales literature, it's designed to fool people into paying for snake oil. It seems to have worked on you. Nothing in it makes sense , nor is it based on anything real.

Quote:


There are engineers out there that actually use the DBS 72v (formerly 36v) and believe that it does effect the dielectric.

I'm sure there are engineers who believe in various gods as well....what's your point?
post #81 of 668
I have very revealing speakers at home driven by 5,200W+ RMS into their 4 Ohms. 4 mono amps through 2 hybrid phase inverters Superb detail, sonic detail, live at home, totally. Those brands you mention are all heavily marketed to audiophiles, who love to pay more than they should. Legacy is used in many studios, and by the people who make the recordings. He actually did a special double Helix for Universal in NY, his design smoked all the others that where competing for the job. I suggest you listen to better speakers for much less.
post #82 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEDUPZ View Post

I have very revealing speakers at home driven by 5,200W+ RMS into their 4 Ohms. 4 mono amps through 2 hybrid phase inverters Superb detail, sonic detail, live at home, totally. Those brands you mention are all heavily marketed to audiophiles, who love to pay more than they should. Legacy is used in many studios, and by the people who make the recordings. He actually did a special double Helix for Universal in NY, his design smoked all the others that where competing for the job. I suggest you listen to better speakers for much less.

Egglestonworks, the speakers I own, does very little marketing. In fact, it can take 6 months for a new product that has shipped to even make it onto their web site. Hand built, very high quality drivers and being low production does add to the cost. You get what you pay for with EW.
post #83 of 668
Ya can't move AIR without drivers of the right size. If you want life like realism.SLAM IMPACT and dynamic range that is LIVE. can't be done with small undersized boxes. Physics, can't be defeated. And if you believe the nonsense spewed by AudioQuest and all the other scam product mfgs, you again seriously need some basic training.
post #84 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

I don't recall seeing any of those big boomy "live event pro speakers" in recording studios around the world, do you? Yes, they are designed to play ridiculously loud, but revealing? Nope. You should have a listen to some Acapella speakers with the plasma Ion tweeter, Wilson X2/Maxx series 3 speakers, or Egglestonworks Savoy or Andra IIs and then tell me what you think of the dynamics, resolution of sound, detail, and sound stage created with zero distortion...then repost.


I love some of the products in high end audio, especially speakers and the tech associated with the cutting edge. I've followed the high end speaker offerings for about 30 years. Despite the insanity in pricing, and the BS marketing, there are some fantastic products out there that are capable of amazing things.

Now I've also followed the pro audio loudspeaker products for decades as well. What's available today in touring sound is every bit as good, in every aspect, as any high end speaker. You have no idea, as evidenced by your statements, of the capability of the current manufacturers loudspeaker products. Resolution as good as any "home" hifi product in the world. Dynamics, obviously nothing can compare to the finest pro audio. Frequency, time and phase aligned to a very high degree of accuracy, and ideally optimized in a manner that very few home systems can approach. Imaging, that's a product of the recording, and a product of suitable playback acoustics. Equalized in both the time and frequency domain the system would image as well as the material and room will allow.

I've set up pro equipment in great environments. Most environments are very challenging, and compromised in areas. Some events, in the right environment, can be phenomenal. Certainly not limited by the loudspeakers. Attend a large outdoor event with a good PA. Or a summer amphitheater tour, and sit in a good spot and take it all in. It's all about the position in which you experience the event, and the acoustic environment of the event. The results attainable when ample time is given to set-up, can achieve virtually any positive attribute available in the home. We preach it all the time in these AVS pages, ..it's all about the room.

The operational headroom in a big PA can cure many of the problems we discuss here all the time. As I posted somewhere earlier, AC/DC went out with (72) 18s per side, in an arena. That's headroom. The distortion free nature that the LF has can be fantastic in this way. That many drivers operating within their linear envelope can achieve some stunning results. I learned this many years ago putting together a rented PA for a wedding as an experiment. I went way overkill on the LF boxes. (8) double 15s, mated with a single two way top for each side. Etched in my mind in general is the importance of headroom. More specifically, the approach of utilizing multiple LF drivers, each operating in a highly linear fashion well within their respective linear envelope, all summing to provide LF support for highly optimized mains.

Here is a link to that story I recently posted at the Cult. The 5th paragraph is the related content.


The best of what modern performance audio is capable of, by any standard is phenomenal. Obviously each type has their strengths, but as I go down the list, the only aspect I can think of whereby a home speaker may excel, is the potential negative effects of baffle width. If the pro speaker didn't address the diffraction discontinuities, perhaps very early reflections could be slightly problematic. In the finest boxes I know of, every potential aspect, including diffraction effects, are a design element.


Big boomy "live event pro speakers" ....What aspect can they not reveal? They are very challenged in many acoustic environments, but to characterize the speaker as boomy and lacking ability to be revealing, that's not correct.


Thanks
post #85 of 668
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Ever hear of capacitive coupling, which is also referred to among engineers as parasitic crosstalk?

I suggest you re-read the the Maxim app note with the understanding that the cables being spoken of are STP XLR cables and then re-assess your statement regarding the effect of capacitive coupling between such cables.
post #86 of 668
post #87 of 668
post #88 of 668
post #89 of 668
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

My hat is lined with copper thank you.

I hope you have been using the oxygen free, cryogenically treated, crystal enhanced, spun copper hat lining with the electrically charged insulation and audiophool rated scalp interface.

BTW, since you like to use the term biased when referring to insulation, please explain the electrical circuit that "biases" the insulation, keeping in mind that a circuit will have at least 2 connection points and ALL voltages- AC or DC -can be measured and visualized.
post #90 of 668
My all time favorite, better sounding FUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $50. each!!! Bet it ain't even tested to UL. For voltage or arc suppression. It SOUNDS better than a Buss or LittelFuse, it's high end BS. http://www.stereophile.com/images/CE...jpg?1294871218
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Audio theory, Setup and Chat
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Audio theory, Setup and Chat › For all the mega buck cable devotees