4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 39

I'm probably not the one laughing. You were the one cynical on huge size. How many 110" you figured can roll out in a 8.5G fab?

It is not that difficult to make a 110" LCD TV PROTOTYPE with a single piece of 8.5G motherglass. Neither is it for 4K at huge size. Notice how it is conveniently 4XHD and 4X55"?

I'm sure Sharp can make 4k 120" prototype in 10G if they wanted to ie 4X60". Key competence is how to make sure such huge panels don't crack or get twisted in mass production. That's way different from making prototypes.

I'm now pretty sure you don't understand how all this works but getting pieces of info here and there and anchoring on specific piece to make your point. I would be very surprised for eg if they can do IGZO or retina displays tomorrow, or like 8mile says, get TCL 110" in a store near you, or China, for that matter.

And Rogo is right. LCD panels are not labour intensive. It is the BLU and assembly that are labour intensive. That's why they are located in China, Poland and Mexico.

BTW you quoted me wrongly in your post. Pls amend.


Again, Apple is not into the TV business. It is into the TV ecosystem. (As a sidenote I think using remote control Apps on a single device like iPhone with Bluetooth (with or without Siri) to replace the various physical remotes make sense)

100ppi is way less difficult to make than 300ppi. Manufacturing 4K TV is not the bottleneck.

Certainly the situation (viewing distance, display size, eyesight, etc...) determines whether 4K TVs provide any benefit. My opinion is simply that I think there are enough people who will benefit from 4K TVs that there will be a market for 4K pre-recorded content from the studios within the next 5 years.

Also just to make my position clear I think that the NHK is aiming way to high with UHDTV (4320p120) and have said that before earlier in this thread. I personally think that the NHK would have a much better chance with a TV standard based on 2160p60.



If the PS4 is capable of 2160p30 output I expect that there will be a few 2160p30 PS4 games released. 2160p30 is only twice the number of pixels per second as 1080p60 and from what I have read there are a few 1080p60 PS3 games (such as MLB The Show 09, Ninja Gaiden Sigma, and Ridge Racer 7).

By the way, I think it's as far fetched that couch locations are moving in 10 years as that houses are being redesigned around 110" TVs.

Most of the good LCDs are showing very little colour or gamma shift at wider angles now, so if you are not in a dark room, the loss of contrast is not noticeable in many cases. (it's below the level of ambient lighting) Most people aren't watching film in a completely dark room any more.

The biggest problem with televisions of that size, is that they will only fit in American homes, and even then, you have a massive black slab taking up a whole wall in your room when it's turned off.

Whether they become affordable or not, I just can't see televisions that size taking off. Even 60ʺ is pushing it in most homes, most people don't want anything bigger.

Until we get paper-thin rollable displays, or displays that are transparent when off, I can't see that changing. Those sizes are going to be limited to projectors, and even they aren't exactly mainstream. (hopefully cheap LED/Laser light sources can change that, but it seems unlikely)


And that's where I expect Apple to stay. Why would they enter the television market which is losing long-established companies a lot of money, and not an item which is replaced on a yearly basis, when they can build up their TV ecosystem via iTunes, iPads and "Apple TV" boxes that work without having to convince people to replace probably one of the bigger purchases they have made in the last 5-10 years? (and Apple already has a "remote" app which can control all of these)


Right, but I don't think we're at the point where Apple could release a 4K TV that didn't have an outrageous price tag attached to it. Apple released the iPhone 4 at the same price as the old model. The new iPad costs the same as the old iPad.

The days of the premium television are rapidly coming to an end, and having Apple's name on it won't change that. (and in actual fact, in most categories, Apple's products are now reasonably priced, but considerably better made and supported)


That's true, but virtually nothing on the PS3 currently renders 1920×1080 at 60fps, and that would assume that all other assets (character models, textures, effects etc.) are kept at the same quality as this generation, which is not going to be the case.

To render a next-generation quality title at 2160p30 would require at least 4-8× the load of 1080p60.


MLB and Ridge Racer do render 1920×1080 (NGS does not) and while I can't speak for MLB, Ridge Racer certainly does not hold 60fps, though it might reach that sometimes.

Very few games on PS3 render at 1920×1080, and even fewer attempt that at 60fps, with virtually none actually having a consistent 60fps.

The vast majority of games on the PS3 are 1280×720 or lower, at 30fps or less.

I think you will be lucky to see the majority of games next generation running at 1920×1080 with a solid 30fps. 4K is not going to happen. If the console is capable of a 2160p30 output, you might see a few titles attempt it, or downloadable games like Super Stardust HD using it, but that's it. It will not be the standard next gen.

You definitely underestimate the Chinese. Let's see complete facts, not a biased selection of them:

-China Star Optoelectronics started construction on March 15, 2010.With scientific design of production technologies and processes, the company has completed the construction of its 720,000-square-meter main factories within 17 months, including array factory, cell forming factory, color filter factory and module factory, all of which have been decorated and are fitted with equipment and power system

-Shenzhen China Star Optoelectronics Technology launched its first-phase production of 8.5-generation LCD panel on August 8th, 2011

-The launch marked that the high-generation TFT-LCD production line, which China built on its own, was put into production and operation

- China Star Optoelectronics Technology has a total of 2,295 staff, including 192 professionals from Taiwan, South Korea and other countries and 110 professionals from mainland China with working experience in related industries

- March 9th, 2012 - Shenzhen-based China Star Optoelectronics Technology Co Ltd., a subsidiary of a world leader in the consumer electronics industry, TCL Corporation, has developed the world's largest 110-inch 4X full high definition (HD) 3D liquid crystal display (LCD) screen

If you are able to look through those facts, this is absolutely stunning, incredible achievement in planning, execution and results. Fact that they employed aliens with experience, adding them to their own substantial ranks is just one aspect of this. But in just 24 months from breaking the ground to the most advanced technology which no competitor is able to match is shocking. Seeing such achievements it is ridiculous to think we will never ever hear about their 4K tech.


It is clear there are not so many houses which have a wall in the living room to put 110" TV (I have one ). I also said many times that there is big factor in the human psychology, people mostly do not want to have displays of the size dwarfing anything else. Thus it is evident that monster size displays will be a niche market. However, there was another obstacle for such displays: price. Sharp has quite eliminated it for the North American market capturing good sales there /in overall bad economy/. So now imagine people like the TCL are coming and lowering the price, making for the (booming) developing world same as Sharp did for the N.A. The market is expanded globally, still a niche but much bigger than the N.A. niche. Add to this the home projector/theater market which the 110" would be naturally killing. Such market size would enable profitable business for the TCL.

Main reason for any manufacturer to build a recordbreaking size flatscreen is...world wide publicity

Whatever it is they build non-chinese manufacturers have build factories like this for years, its not the first of its kind (and it won't be the last), is it? Yes, there is a chinese astronaut - in a chinese rocket, big achievement. Has been done before though. Remember 1969?

I have seen no TCL salesfigures and do not know what the quality is, so what do we actually know about Optoelectronics?

Luxury is not a chinese 'thing'. Yes, they make LCd's (probably don't make Local Dimmings , have you seen any chinese Plasma's?). Chinese who want luxury - beter quality - LCd's buy foreign LCds. In fact majority of best quality luxury products in China are foreign, especially high tech stuff. Thats why i'm a sceptic.


* I did not say we never gonna hear about chinese 4K again, i said we never gonna hear about this 110 inch 4K model again.

I suspected that this was beyond our terrestial capabilities.

Foxconn's investment in Sharp plant rumored to yield IGZO 60" 4K AppleTV possibly as soon as 1st Quarter 2013.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/home-theat...pple-hdtv/5769

Don't know if 60" can fully show off the advantages of 4K resolution, but they will definitely push the passive Full HD angle. We now have Sony and Apple backing 4K, so it is just a matter of time before it becomes the standard. I will be waiting for 2014 when there should be an 80" Sharp ICC-4K for around $3500.

I don't doubt there's a niche. And I don't argue that it expands somewhat with the growth of China, Brazil, Russia having wealthier households.

A bit of perspective, however, is that Sharp managed to convince about .2% of U.S. households to buy a 70" TV despite making them more or less affordable and readily available.

Now, if they got much more affordable (TBD how realistic that is, but let's say they cost only $1500 instead of $3000) and time passes, I think we'll learn what the cap on demand is in terms of who doesn't even want one.

Your current TV is already a "Retina Display" Unless you're sitting really close and/or it's really large:
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7...?tag=cnetRiver

A few things. Most PS3 games that are "1080p" aren't actually rendering at 1080p, they're much lower, and are upconverted (much easier) to output 1080p. The Xbox 360 does the same thing. Given the cost constraints on the new consoles, I wouldn't be surprised if they do something similar.

Secondly, most major game designers specify minimum fps, not minimum resolution. So when there's a lot happening on screen, the resolution is dropping to keep the framerate up. For one example, here's an interesting article Eurogamer did about COD:BO:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...ck-ops-faceoff

I disagree with the CNET article, the primary reason that the Apple "Retina Display" compared to the Ipad2 display is getting reviews is according to Appleis"

The Retina Display "pixels are so close together, your eyes can’t discern individual ones at a normal viewing distance. When you can’t see the pixels, you see the whole picture. Or article. Or game. In ways you never could before."

Yamaha recently released 3 new AV receivers capable of 4K pass through over HDMI (3840x2160 at 30 fps or 4096x2160 at 24 fps) which is noted in their user manuals. The user manuals can be downloaded from the USA Yamaha website (it requires registration) though it is easier to download them from the UK Yamaha website. These are the first AV receivers I know of that are capable of 4K pass through over HDMI.



It does look like a lower resolution 1080p mode is used for Ninja Gaiden Sigma. For Ridge Racer 7 though all the articles I have read indicates that it is 1920x1080 at 60 fps including this Eurogamer article which tested it and got an average frame rate of just over 59 fps.



True, and from what I have read the PS3 SDK allows for 1080p games to render at 1920x1080, 1600x1080, 1440x1080, 1280x1080, and 960x1080.



I know that the frame rate can drop in games but I have never heard of a console game that can change the resolution based on the frame rate. I read the face-off article on Call of Duty: Black Ops and it looks like a normal comparison article to me. It is possible you got confused since it talks about the resolution difference for the PS3 version (960x540) and the Xbox 360 version (1040x608). The article also has a comparison video of the frame rate during gameplay for the two versions.

I agree. I don't think the resolution drops in realtime during a game. Though the article mentions a texture being replaced by a lower resolution one (eg. depending how near the object is), the actual rendering resolution of the game won't be changing in realtime.

True, publicity is important and critical for somebody aspiring to the top. BUT, one must have something jaw-dropping to show to get the effect. Now if one reminds the CES 2012 where LG was making big noise of the 84" 4K LCD prototype, the 4K 110" is making a laughable dwarf out of it.



Making factory with the production capabilities of 110"@4K is entirely new. Samsung, LG and Sharp having cold shivers now.


Heh, good example but to the contrary of what you think. Indeed, one has to repeat the steps of others to advance to the top. But chinese are doing it much faster and with long term vision where they are going. They just are getting closer to having their own space station /which you can say done before/ as a step towards permanent base on the Moon - beating then the 1969 - and moving to the top.



Don't make a fool of yourself due to ignorance.


They are repeating what other Asians did before starting with cheapy products made in sweatshops and going up the ladder. The difference is they are moving up much faster with brilliant strategy - fact they skipped plasma is perfect illustration of this. These are not empty words but reflect strategic plan:

The launch of the China Stardisplay screen solidifies TCL's internationally competitive edge, and allows TCL to have a greater impact on the flat panel display market, said Gu Zhihua, director of the flat panel display center at Fudan University. "China will replace Japan and South Korea as the world leader in TV display screens in terms of manufacturing and R&D in three to five years, and will provide a higher level of quality and more cost-effective products to the global community. Gu concluded.

Oke, i see the sales, what about quality (reviews etc...)?

I am watching a documentary series about China right now (China Triump and Turmoil 3 parts). There seems to be so much corruption that China could collaps any minute( -> more than half of its citizens have not enough to eat). We are basicly dealing here with a instable country. Whatever grand plans they might have, it could come to a abrupt halt.

Rumors of sudden Chinese collapse make for great TV but are wildly detached from reality.

I don't really get why the west finds it appropriate to report things like that as if they could actually happen but whatever.

i don't know about short term but believe China won't make on the long term, the regime is to old-fashioned for modernity imo.

They are in the process of fastest transition in history - metaphorically speaking from a bowl of rice to 110"@4K LCDs. It is obvious there will be part of the people still on the bowl and part having the LCDs. It is impossible to bring prosperity to 1.4 bln people at the same time. There will corruption, social and ethnic tensions but due to the lot of positive developments they does not seem to undermine general stability.



This kind of thinking is based on the associations with the words 'communism + Soviet Union'. Such associations are completely misleading for China. It is market economy which is centrally controlled kind of like Japan in the past. Obviously there is no democracy and limited freedom but in these aspects it is far away from the Soviets.


You definitely underestimate them. More likely is that they will evolve towards full democracy when prosperity will reach everybody which is still far away prospect. At the current level of development democracy brings little for such mass of people. Good comparison is with India: similar social size and supposedly full democracy but is it any better than China?


No conspiracy theory here, rather it is typical sensationalism, professional doomsayers, and bad-wishers making their bucks. But it is a fun to hear this and hear real facts like those 110" 4K LCDs .

It is my opinion that people predicting collapses of China have no idea what the hell that even means. The Chinese economy is already bigger than anything that could realistically "collapse" overnight; it's place in the global system to critical for the rest of the world to even want to see such an even occur.

I suspect Chinese growth at some point will slow and that the political system at some point will change (somewhat), but the notion that there's going to be a "collapse" -- whatever that even is supposed to mean -- is so patently absurd, it flies in the face of the way the world currently works.

The last 30 years has seen Japan undergo a massive financial crisis without collapsing, the U.S. undergo a massive financial crisis without collapsing, Europe undergo a massive financial crisis without collapsing. Did these cause economic pain? Of course -- and some of them are not entirely over. But in the meantime, many of the economic leaders of those countries/continents plowed on and grew and thrived through the crises. Even if Chinese growth slowed to 2% for the next 5 years (not happening, but let's pretend), the idea this would stop China from taking over the LCD business is silliness. Who's going to defend the LCD business exactly? The bankrupt Japanese companies? The profitless Taiwanese? The Koreans who are leaving the LCD business voluntarily?

the only significant change facing china is that they are developing a large middle class that will want the same goods, services, and political rights that are currently available to the middle class in korea, north america and europe.

while the populace is willing to accept censorship and minimal political rights currently, the next generation may not. at some point the chinese government may not be able to convince their populace to waive what we take as our 1st amendment rights in exchange for economic growth.

Everybody who (openly) disagrees, leaves the country, go's to jail or is executed

China remains a totalitarian communist state eventhough it embraced free market principles.

Like i said, there is not a bit of democracy its a totalitarian communist state. It can't be bend, it must be broken.

sooner or later there probably will be a uprising, seems inevitable.

1) china is the largest communist and India is the largest democracy. Check out the difference

2) china leadership is very concern about social issues. GDP growth is less important than job growth, but is a consequence of it. That's where the west always get it wrong. GDP growth will be slowing because urban population just exceeded rural in 2011. The Chinese policies are slow and steady: they haven't forgotten Mao ZeDong's "great leap". The west had forgotten.

Go read on the legacy of a small man that was purged THRICE but laid the foundation of modern China and pulled a billion people out of hunger: Deng XiaoPing. Then you may have a glimpse of why china do what, even today, after his death some 15 years ago.

3) china is still at a stage of quantity vs quality. It's so obvious it's oxymoron to discuss "china quality" at THIS point of its development.

4) there's only that much a 8.5G can output in motherglass. Without increasing capex and fab quantity, it is irrelevant if they put in a million "ants" to the sole 8.5G fab. TCL is absolutely not going to do volume 110" in the next 3 years. That's a MATHEMATICAL certainty.

Have a great Easter everyone!!

4K TV is here today. This is a 55" Toshiba 3D TV.

Toshiba 55ZL2

£7000

4
.
As a starting-point for a new generation of TVs, this is admirable. As a £7000 telly it struggles a bit
Write your own review.Review
Your Opinion
Tech Specs
.
For
Four times HD resolution and glasses-free 3D; outstanding black levels and detail for a screen of this type; balanced, enjoyable pictures from all sources bar standard-def TV

Against
Glasses-free 3D rather compromised; total lack of 3840 x 2160 content; nasty sound; limited Smart TV functionality. Oh, and the price

This review is from "WHAT HI FI magazine for May 2012.

problem in China is that there is virtually no freedom of speech. The communist party is in charge of whats truth and whats not. That is what the Tiananmen Square protests where all about...in 1989

chinese kapitalism started in 1978 ...should have some high quality products by now.

How much of the VHS victory over laser disk was due to the ability to record to VHS?

Possibly for the very same reason VHS was victorious over Beta?

Virtually none, actually.

Most of it was that we already had VHS machines and pretty much all the movies were already for rent on VHS. The ecosystem existed. Laserdisk had no such thing.

Not many people actually recorded to timeshift. Of course, those of us that did had even less interest in Laserdisk.

These are simplistic cliches. Remember e.g. that when Korea and Taiwan were at the stage China is today they were under brutal dictatorships, what effect this had? Communism in China is now an entirely different beast than its traditional meaning. This can be seen in lots of things like in full embracing of market economy which is in obvious contradiction to communism. But there is even a more important aspect: traditional communism collapsed not at least due to the degeneration of leadership due to the same people staying in power for decades which in the end was taking grotesque forms. Chinese ended this, leadership can stay for maximum 10 ys, this means they are not likely to collapse by degeneracy. They could go into economic collapse typical for market economy but got huge lesson from the western collapse and learned fast from it. The last possible collapse is due to your favorite lack of freedoms but this collapse happens only when related with falling economy and there are no signs of it.


Returning back to the technology, chinese proved themselves as masters of strategy. They built solid foundations and only now announce intentions to move up the ladder.
Regarding the 110"@4K this is stunning achievement if only the prototype. Others could make it in principle and Sharp was showing an 8K LCD. But fact is that chinese may claim now world biggest 4K TV. Specs is claiming they can't make 110" in volumes even in 3ys. This is grossly underestimating their capabilities for expansion. Practical observation is that chinese are working in the 24/7 anto colony style and are phenomenal replicators and thus one can should apply multiplier by 3x comparing to others. Thus, 3ys chinese time is 9ys for others. In such a long chinese time they will be surely expanding their advanced OLEDs.

BTW, it seems the only way to survive in hardware making is to go to China.

Sorry for off topic. Really don't want to derail this thread. But the 1989 protests is mainly due to huge inflation during the transition to market economy during 1985-1988.
Freedom of speech does not mean a lot in a modern society especially in the internet age. The key is who control the media outlets/channel and whose voice is the loudest. Just look at the budget for some organization and think why US is pushing internet or freedom of speech to some countries. It is also strange to think there is little censorship in US when major media outlets are controlled by 4-5 companies.

In China, people could openly called their president an actor and criticize government policies. But like any modern political system, the only way to balance one interest group is by another equally powerful interest group.

Last, BBC did a pretty accurate documentary on the current fast transition to modernization in China.

Now, back to 4K topic.