4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 41

The irony here is that you're the creationist in this example. And in the U.S., creationists don't much believe in those freedoms, it's we evolutionists.

But anyway.... moving on.

Lets get back to 4K news. Intel Ivy Bridge CPU to ship with 4K capability as soon as April 23.

http://gizmodo.com/5901390/report-in...ive-april-23rd

Sony backs 4K technology. Adopts Apple business model and farms out production to Foxconn in coming years. Possibly forms grand alliance between Sony, Sharp, Panasonic and Japanese government to save jobs.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=8521

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83907220120412

Quote
"An area that has NOT been outlined in the 4k push to consumers is a home video product such as Blu-ray 4K or 4K TVs. "



The focus is on the pro side. The hardware side could talk 4k all they want due to thin margin and flat growth curve. But there is really nothing happening on the content delivery side.

Just want to say that the "8K CMOS Image sensor" in that Sony chart is not an 8K image sensor as in 7680 x 4320 resolution for image sensors,TV's and projectors.

It is just Sony "playing with numbers" as a rather sly marketing ploy.

The sensor is the sensor in the F65 camera marketed by Sony as a 8K camera, which it is very far from being.

If this is true, HDTVs better have at least 4k resolution by then.

^^^Small high density displays => 4K TVs = bad logic.

The Sony definition of 4K TV is quoted below:
"
Digital cinema resolution is measured in units of “K,” which stands for 1024
horizontal pixels. In the early years of the DCI Specification, the dominant
resolution was 2048 pixels horizontal x 1080 vertical, known as 2K. But 2K represents only 7% more pixels than 1920 x 1080 HDTV. Fortunately, a more future-oriented, higher-resolution option was also written into the DCI Specification: 4K. At 4096 pixels horizontal x 2160 vertical, this is exactly four times as many pixels as 2K, and greater than four times the pixel count of HDTV
".

This is likely to be theoretical, if not impossible at all. According to the info from the Intel Developer Forum in Beijing (April 11th 2012) Ivy Bridge chips support up to 3 simultaneous displays but maximum res is 2560x1600. The total output of pixels is thus very high and enough for the 4K but at least in the current configuration the output for single display is limited to 2.3K. This is confirmed by looking into the Ivy Bridge motherboards. Scores of Ivy Brige motherboards are already available and some of them have the Display Port output which is specified to support 4K. However, looking into the manual of one of these boards shows the Display Port resolution is limited to just the 2560x1600.



Hard fact is that in the latest Sony strategy TV or displays are not mentioned at all, only Play Station, mobile and medical technology.

April 12, 2012
Sony Transformation to Revitalize Electronics Business, Generate Growth and Drive New Value Creation
''One Sony'' for change

quote ''Specific examples of business areas in which Sony will target mid- to long-term growth are medical and 4K-related technologies.''

'A hard fact'
2. Turning around the television business

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Pr...56E/index.html

Why wouldn't you use a 3G HDMI connection?


Think this is the first 4K DSLR/Camera combination. It will take time but it is coming along nicely.

http://gizmodo.com/5901751/how-canon...eams-a-reality

The MOBO that you provided the link to only supports the Display Port 1.1 Spec which does not support 4K whereas the 1.2 or later display port spec does.

http://www.vesa.org/wp-content/uploa...010-rev-2b.pdf

You are absolved from ignorance since proper reading PR texts requires experience:

Key initiatives to transform the electronics business are:

1. Strengthening core businesses (Digital Imaging, Game, Mobile)

So you can see TV does NOT count as Sony core business anymore


2. Turning around the television business:

Sony is taking further measures to change the business structure, for example by improving design engineering efficiency and reducing the number of product models (targeting a 40% reduction from the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012 ("FY11") to the fiscal year ending March 31, 2013 ("FY12")), with the aim of reducing fixed business costs related to the television business by 60% and operating costs by 30% in FY13 compared to FY11.

Which in practice means winding down the operation


Regarding the 4K:

Sony is also drawing on its comprehensive strengths in audio and visual technologies to aggressively promote the growth of "4K" technology, which delivers more than four times the resolution of Full HD. Incorporation of Sony-developed technologies, such as image sensors, image processing compression LSIs and high-speed optical transmission modules into its professional-use and high-end consumer products will pave the way for Sony to continue to expand and enrich its 4K-compatible product lineup

This does not mention TV displays at all. It mentions professional and high end consumer. In connection with the technologies listed it means cameras and recording.

Ivy Bridge mobos support only 2K HDMI.


True. In any case Intel confirmed Ivy Bridge mobos support only 2560x1600 res maximum.

Altogether this is not a big issue since reportedly Radeon HD 7000 series graphics cards support 4K. No 4K computer monitors is by far the biggest obstacle.

We will just have to see when Ivy Bridge and Ivy Bridge MOBOs are released later this month.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/computers/...esolution/6761

You stated that ''in the latest Sony strategy -> TV or displays are not mentioned at all <-'' . The paragraph -> 2. turning around the television business <- in Sony latest strategy is all about TV and /or displays

Since this a 4K thread i included Sony's 4K plans

4K will be pushed by TV manufacturers.

It's another way to get those people hanging on to their old CRT TVs to feel "left behind", helping them to decide to "upgrade" to 1080p, thus spuring the slowing HDTV biz.

If you are building a computer, then you want to wait for Ivy Bridge-E version, which now has been pushed back second half 2013.




Yes, AMD Radeon HD 7000 series supports 4k resolution now. Also, Nvidia Kepler series is supposedly supporting it, but their documention says it is not. http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-...M.71887.0.html

There is 4K Computer monitors out now. Just that they are industrial monitors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution
The Astro 56" is like 42k. The Eizo 36" is like 35K.

The monitor cost is an issue, but once H.265 gets released, then you see costs dropping.

Sharp press release.

Sharp rolls out high-res IGZO LCDs destined for tablets, laptops and monitors

PCWorld


I guess they are betting on a demand for 4K PC monitors for people that want to see their 4K material they shot on all the new 4K able cameras that have been announced lately.
First customer; New Apple MAC monitors?

There has also been some rumours that Apple will back/release a 8K monitor/display. Probably for the post production industry as this was a NAB rumour.

Here is a link to a 2004 BBC survey in which the median viewing distance was 2.7 meters and that 10% of people had a viewing distance of 2 meters or closer. Though it was a small survey (102 people) and was done years before HD broadcasts started in the UK the information on this survey was publicly released. Personally I think there will be a large enough market to support 4K TVs in the 60" to 70" size range. When you add in features like "autostereoscopic 3D" or "passive 3D" though 4K TVs can make sense in smaller sizes as well. For example when the autostereoscopic 3D mode is used on the Toshiba 55" 4K TV the resolution drops to 720p.



That was from a paper on the Sony VPL-VW1000ES in the "Digital cinema standards" section. Personally I think that in the long term 4K TVs will use a resolution of 3840x2160 since that makes a lot more sense in the consumer world. For professional applications there will be a market for 4096x2160 displays but in the consumer world that resolution is a huge negative (16:9 content would either have to be stretched or it would have black bars on the side of the screen with 16:9 content). I think there were likely other reasons why Sony went with that resolution on the Sony VPL-VW1000ES and that it is not an indication of future plans for consumer 4K displays. Also note that the Sony VPL-VW1000ES can be set up to work only at 3840x2160.



The information on Ivy Bridge supporting 4K by 4K resolutions was from a presentation given at IDF 2011 in San Francisco and can be seen in this article. It is possible that support for 2160p60 output over DisplayPort is an optional feature with Ivy Bridge but even if it isn't than it is still possible to use two DisplayPort connectors for 2160p60 output (for example the Eizo 4K computer monitor works by using either two DisplayPort connectors or two dual-link DVI connectors). That is a bit of a poor solution but technically it would allow for 4K displays using only Ivy Bridge integrated graphics.

What I find much more interesting is that Intel expects 4K computer monitors for desktops to arrive for the premium market next year and for the mainstream market in 2015 as seen in this article. Note that this news came from IDF 2012 in Beijing and has been widely reported as seen in this German article (which also has several pictures showing a 4K computer monitor working at 60 fps with 30-bit color using a single DisplayPort connector and a few slides in English that explain how it was done).



NVIDIA doesn't make it easy to tell what Kepler supports in terms of output resolution and I posted a bit about that issue in this post. Based on everything I have read I believe Kepler is capable of 2160p30 output over both DisplayPort and HDMI but I can't tell for sure whether it is capable of 2160p60 output over DisplayPort. AMD was much clearer on this issue and specifically stated on their product pages the fact that their new Southern Islands based graphic cards supported DisplayPort 1.2 HBR2 (High Bit Rate 2 which means that it supports double the maximum bit rate compared to the original version of DisplayPort).

There seems to be not large enough markt for 2K of this size, expecting that market will expand just becaues of 4K is unrealistic


I think explanation of the confusion regarding Ivy Bridge and 4K can be seen here. Ivy Bridge can indeed support res up to 4096x4096. However this year max res supported is 2560x1600, each year the max res will be increasing finally achieving 4K in 2014.



Many mobos have manuuals already on the Web sites. According to the above there is no 4K support, only 2650x1600.

I was actually surprised when reading that there was no talk of any 4K TV's or BD players. Especially the accelerating innovation chart. It didn't even have any displays. I would of thought by now sony would have a 4K display announced.

Looks like the professional 4K gear is starting to heat up. It will still take Sony, Apple and Sharp to bring it to the homes in any can of mass quantity and at reasonable prices. Hopefully, we will start to see them 2nd quarter 2013. The next few years should be very interesting. Do I go with 55" OLED or take the 80" 4K Elite for the same price?

If you look at the restructuring plan it is unlikely Sony will be bringing innovative displays to the home. There will be limited selection of Sony-branded TVs on the market which will plug endless losses of Sony TV business.

Sharp announcement on April 13th 2012 of start of the manufacturing of 32" 4K panels is a very positive sign of display industry waking up. One could guess the 32" 4K monitors will first appear exclusively branded by Apple /due to their strong relation with Sharp/ and later the panels will become generally available to other brands. Perhaps it is even not far from reality that it was Apple who told Sharp: "guys stop this craze with mini-production of those monster-TV-money-loosers and give us trillions of high-density panels across our range of iphones-ipads-imacs-idesktops" .

But Samsung and LG should be following Sharp and the 4K will become real for the masses.


There are prospects Sharp will continue manufacturing big TV displays although in fact Foxconn will be hidden behind. 55" OLED is rather small to compete with the 65"+ LCDs.

What will be the new default fps? Will it still be 24, or will it move up to 48? What about 3D 4K? What about 3D 4K 48 fps?

4K is great, but higher fps is just as important, IMO. And 3D tech is improving rapidly as well. I certainly will not buy any new projectors, tv's and media players if they are going to add these features incrementally, forcing an upgrade in all equipment with every additional feature.

24fps 48fps, not any time soon

agree

Gary wrote a post about that
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...57&postcount=7


48fps threads
) http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1328203

) http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1328745

Sony is already bringing 4K into the homes with their projectors. For flat panel displays they will most likely copy Apple and buy panels from Foxconn/Sharp. They still hold the most important part and that is the movie studio and extensive back catalog. Once they start releasing 4K blu-ray the other studios will have to follow. Even Apple with all its innovation and might can not get it done without a major content provider behind them. Could that be one of their next purchases? A major movie or tv company? They have been trying to get the production companies on board with AppleTV for years with no luck, and the certainely have plenty of extra cash lying around. Phase one might have been investing in Foxconn to acquire rights to the Sharp factory and reduce their dependence on Samsung.

You do not recognize grave situation of Sony business:

Sony is taking further measures to change the business structure, for example by improving design engineering efficiency and reducing the number of product models (targeting a 40% reduction from the fiscal year ended March 31, 2012 ("FY11") to the fiscal year ending March 31, 2013 ("FY12")), with the aim of reducing fixed business costs related to the television business by 60% and operating costs by 30% in FY13 compared to FY11.

In practice it is so that Sony not only will buy displays. Sony already sold plants to Foxconn and Sony TVs (in much reduced range) will be made by Foxconn. Foxconn signalled earlier it will be assuming the role of ODM for Sony.

Projectors may survive as they are part of professional imaging division, this has nothing to do with TV.



Certainly splitting and selling Sony business parts is one option. But Apple moving into the content business would be highly unorthodox and could be seen as getting into the track Sony once made crashing into the wall in the end. Apple is razor-sharp focus company, if it would ever go into the content it would Web, not cinema.

I don't see how you can say home cinema projectors have nothing to do with TV. They often get the next gen tech first. I remember seeing line doubler for 480p projectors in the early 90's.
Anyway, here is another step on the transition to 4K. Considering it is less than $10K, and 80" LCD go for around $5K, it looks like it could find its way into more than a few homes.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/16/r...aser-hands-on/

Interestingly, it is using the RedRay codec at about half the bit-rate of blu-ray. Wonder how many GB the average 4K 2-hour movie will clock in at? 50GB? We could use existing dual layer blu-ray disc.

Seems like the computer market is pushing hard for 4k.