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4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 71

post #2101 of 3053
10/16/12 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateo200 View Post

HDMI 2.0 really needs to be backwards compatible...I feel like we (and by we I mean less tech savvy) are just getting used to the idea of HDMI and "Woah it does video AND audio!! Amazing!"...we can't have the standard being completely different...would just mess up everything. If HDMI standards start changing and becoming not backwards compatible as fast as computer graphics cards or just computers in general completely change every 12-18months its going to be mayhem in the consumer tech world...God knows Ill never PC game unless I have money to blow because of this (not that Im a big gamer). The second I bought my computer it was out of date...we can't have that with HDMI..

My Denon AVR-5308 was out of date in 3 after it was released. That is HDMI 1.3c and the new spec was 1.4a. So you are comparing an expensive receiver to a computer. I don't see the comparison at all. ($5400 receiver vs your computer). Well, I can get an upgrade my receiver for $1000, but it takes features out of my receiver. If you look at Thunderbolt's patent it also carries audio and video via one thin cable. The optical distance is going to be 30 to 40 meters vs HDMI that only really allows 50 feet. (This is coming straight from the installers.) Oh, if you look at the new ASUS mother boards. You can buy a new thunderbolt card for a few of Asus motherboards. I typically build new pc's for less money, than buying a new one. As for the video cards, well, just look at the new video cards. You notice both HDMI and Displayport. I have to post that briefing from Vesa. DVI is going away, so expect HDMI to follow.
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post #2102 of 3053
10/16/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

My Denon AVR-5308 was out of date in 3 after it was released. That is HDMI 1.3c and the new spec was 1.4a. So you are comparing an expensive receiver to a computer. I don't see the comparison at all. ($5400 receiver vs your computer). Well, I can get an upgrade my receiver for $1000, but it takes features out of my receiver. If you look at Thunderbolt's patent it also carries audio and video via one thin cable. The optical distance is going to be 30 to 40 meters vs HDMI that only really allows 50 feet. (This is coming straight from the installers.) Oh, if you look at the new ASUS mother boards. You can buy a new thunderbolt card for a few of Asus motherboards. I typically build new pc's for less money, than buying a new one. As for the video cards, well, just look at the new video cards. You notice both HDMI and Displayport. I have to post that briefing from Vesa. DVI is going away, so expect HDMI to follow.

There isn't a snowball's chance in Hell that HDMI is going away. It is the industry standard for home video. Since 2003, HDMI's launch, there are over 2 BILLION HDMI equipped devices in the marketplace.

As far as the custom installers, which represent about 2% of the total home video market - there are numerous ways to extend HDMI past 50 feet.
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post #2103 of 3053
10/16/12 at 3:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

There isn't a snowball's chance in Hell that HDMI is going away. It is the industry standard for home video. Since 2003, HDMI's launch, there are over 2 BILLION HDMI equipped devices in the marketplace.
As far as the custom installers, which represent about 2% of the total home video market - there are numerous ways to extend HDMI past 50 feet.

You remember Floppy disks, well, here is a good article on it. http://www.tuaw.com/2010/04/28/the-floppy-disk-is-dead-and-apple-helped-kill-it/
I don't see a floppy disk on the current computers. There is lot of technologies that disappear, because someone develops a better solution.

Here is the briefing from Vesa.org on DisplayPort. http://www.vesa.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ICCE-Presentation-on-VESA-DisplayPort.pdf
Now it doesn't say HDMI, but I see UHDTV1 or 4k as more as way to test new technologies. It would make more sense to wait till UHDTV2 or 8k, but you have the early adopters. Hhere is a long list of companies that are looking on the new standards for DisplayPort/Thunderbolt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort As far as your HDMI devices, they are safe for now, because a few companies are developing HDM to Thunderbolt hubs. For example, Belkin has one. http://www.macstories.net/news/the-thunderbolt-accessories-of-ces-2012/ So for now, there will be a hub solution.

If we look at the current Firepro and K5000 video cards, then we DisplayPort on them. http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/w7000/Pages/w7000.aspx Video cards allow you to see the future, but you state that it is a graphics workstation video card. Well, that is true, but if you want to build low watt htpc that can do 4k now. Then that is the solution. Eventually, you won't see HDMI on the new video cards, it will be a thing of the past. The rumour on the Apple 4k TV that is coming out is both HDMI and Thunderbolt. but on future TV's it will be replaced.

Oh, yeah, for your HDMI past 50 feet. You can push it but the handshake is the problem. Currently, they tried Balums, Cat5E, CAT6, CAT6A, and CAT7. The current optical fiber solution has the problem at the connectors with the HDMI. There are homes that need larger distances, and to be honest I rather put this small Thunderbolt cable in mine vs. a large HDMI cable. http://www.macworld.com/article/1166542/optical_cables_for_thunderbolt_ports_shipped_by_sumitomo.html
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post #2104 of 3053
10/16/12 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

You remember Floppy disks, well, here is a good article on it. http://www.tuaw.com/2010/04/28/the-floppy-disk-is-dead-and-apple-helped-kill-it/
I don't see a floppy disk on the current computers. There is lot of technologies that disappear, because someone develops a better solution.
Here is the briefing from Vesa.org on DisplayPort. http://www.vesa.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ICCE-Presentation-on-VESA-DisplayPort.pdf
Now it doesn't say HDMI, but I see UHDTV1 or 4k as more as way to test new technologies. It would make more sense to wait till UHDTV2 or 8k, but you have the early adopters. Hhere is a long list of companies that are looking on the new standards for DisplayPort/Thunderbolt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort As far as your HDMI devices, they are safe for now, because a few companies are developing HDM to Thunderbolt hubs. For example, Belkin has one. http://www.macstories.net/news/the-thunderbolt-accessories-of-ces-2012/ So for now, there will be a hub solution.
If we look at the current Firepro and K5000 video cards, then we DisplayPort on them. http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/w7000/Pages/w7000.aspx Video cards allow you to see the future, but you state that it is a graphics workstation video card. Well, that is true, but if you want to build low watt htpc that can do 4k now. Then that is the solution. Eventually, you won't see HDMI on the new video cards, it will be a thing of the past. The rumour on the Apple 4k TV that is coming out is both HDMI and Thunderbolt. but on future TV's it will be replaced.
Oh, yeah, for your HDMI past 50 feet. You can push it but the handshake is the problem. Currently, they tried Balums, Cat5E, CAT6, CAT6A, and CAT7. The current optical fiber solution has the problem at the connectors with the HDMI. There are homes that need larger distances, and to be honest I rather put this small Thunderbolt cable in mine vs. a large HDMI cable. http://www.macworld.com/article/1166542/optical_cables_for_thunderbolt_ports_shipped_by_sumitomo.html

And once again we are on two different topics . . . you . . . are talking about PCs, while I . . . am talking about TVs, BD players, AVRs, CBL/SAT/TELCO STBs, DVRs, etc.
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post #2105 of 3053
10/16/12 at 7:30pm
U mean the standard RCA and S-Video connectors? Technology moves on, PC or home entertainment... all the more when these 2 are converging. It will take a decade, but it moves on.
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post #2106 of 3053
10/16/12 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

U mean the standard RCA and S-Video connectors? Technology moves on, PC or home entertainment... all the more when these 2 are converging. It will take a decade, but it moves on.

And at the forefront of that connector technology will be HDMI . . . not Display Port or Thunderbolt.
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post #2107 of 3053
10/16/12 at 11:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

U mean the standard RCA and S-Video connectors? Technology moves on, PC or home entertainment... all the more when these 2 are converging. It will take a decade, but it moves on.

Let's see the Smart TV is ??? A computer or TV? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_TV Just like the Ipad is slowly replacing the PC. That was released in 2009. Look at the latest report, Panasonic is going to start making Tablets. Who is driving the demand? It is Apple!
http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/10/16/panasonic-to-exit-tv-market-hopes-to-build-lcd-panels-for-apples-ipad---report Now you can be on sinking ship or make money?

We haven't seen the new Apple iPanel. I wonder on what it will look like. The consumer seems to be buying all Apple products. So, what was Jobs vision for the iPanel? Smart tv with voice? DisplayPort/Thunderbolt? What else?
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post #2108 of 3053
10/17/12 at 2:49am
DVD with 1 - 2TB capacity can become a possibility in a year or two. The project is aimed as a storage medium, but interesting in the context of this thread anyway.
Quote:
Case Western University Researchers Develop Tech Aimed at Making 2 TB Optical Discs

The discs would provide small- and medium-sized businesses an alternative to storing data on energy-wasting magnetic disks or cumbersome magnetic tapes, the researchers say. To push technology to market, the leaders of the effort have launched a company.

"A disc will be on the capacity scale of magnetic tapes used for archival data storage," said Kenneth Singer, the Ambrose Swasey professor of physics, and co-founder of Folio Photonics. "But, they'll be substantially cheaper and have one advantage: you can access data faster. You just pop the disc in your computer and you can find the data in seconds. Tapes can take minutes to wind through to locate particular data."

Here's how:
*Singer and Valle, in collaboration with their colleague Professor Eric Baer, make an optical film with 64 data layers.

*A thick, putty-like flow of polymers is repeatedly divided and stacked, then spread into a film and rolled onto a spool. They estimate they can make a square kilometre of film in an hour.

*To make the final product, the researchers cut and paste film onto the same hard plastic base DVDs and Blu-rays are built on.

*Valle said they need to make only slight adjustments to a standard disc reader to enable it to probe and read the data on each layer without interference from layers above or below.

Singer and Valle founded Folio Photonics last week, after spending much of the summer at an entrepreneurial boot camp.
During the National Science Foundation's Innovation-Corps program, with sessions at Georgia Tech, they and physics lecturer Bruce Terry interviewed 150 potential customers, partners and suppliers, and underwent days and evenings of business and commercialization training.

"We learned in two months what some start-ups learn only through failing," Valle said.

The Case Western Reserve scientists aren't the only ones pursuing terabyte-storage discs. Other companies are "looking into a holographic technology, which requires two lasers to write the data and will require a whole new writer/reader," Singer said. "Ours has the advantage of lower manufacturing costs and is more compatible with current readers and writers."

Singer and Valle hope to have prototype discs and readers to show within a year.

http://www.techpowerup.com/173771/Case-Western-University-Researchers-Develop-Tech-Aimed-at-Making-2-TB-Optical-Discs.html
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post #2109 of 3053
10/17/12 at 6:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

DVD with 1 - 2TB capacity can become a possibility in a year or two. The project is aimed as a storage medium, but interesting in the context of this thread anyway.

I seen that article, but have you looked at the videos. There is lot of artifacts in the videos, that the data they record. The current optics technology with blue ray is in a vacuum chamber. A dirt free chamber. Although, if you watch this video they are making the polymer in a room with a machine that is open room. I just see that this article is some scientists looking for a grants. Holographic storage has larger capacity. Today, we need around 2 TB. Tomorrow it might be 100TB, so you need to develop the next gen format with a technology that has the potential to do it.
I seen this article earlier in the month, but the news media seems to just picked it up. There is a video about it. i post on it later, unless someone else finds. I think it was on Youtube.
Edited by Nitro67 - 10/17/12 at 3:10pm
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post #2110 of 3053
10/17/12 at 7:30am
^ ^ ^ ^ Yes it must be dirt.......eek.gif, .....because the images are 10x10microns.tongue.gif Dirty scientists biggrin.gif
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post #2111 of 3053
10/17/12 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

^ ^ ^ ^ Yes it must be dirt.......eek.gif, .....because the images are 10x10microns.tongue.gif Dirty scientists biggrin.gif
.
.

I saw the video and in less than a minute decided that this technology wouldn't provide the results of holographic disc. I could have posted it in the past, but it doesn't give the storage requirements of that will be required for UHDTV storage. More layers can be done now with sputtering physical vapor deposition. Actually, it was done in 2007-2009, so more layers is not the answer. More capacity is not the only thing that is a requirement. It is data access speed. A layer technology won't give you the data access speed required. Hitachi's Holographic disc uses a new method, that gives you the faster data rate. The reason is that they changed the recording method. Again, you don't understand optical thin films. Lack of experience... You and the media have jumped to conclusions, but this technology is old. So, why go back to it? Optical thin films is much smaller than 10 microns. Also realize that these scientists has to prove the technology to other scientists. (The articles have so far called them researchers, professor, and engineers)
I do wish these scientists the best of luck with their new company, but it is rather difficult to develop a next gen optical format.


I am looking for a technology that meets the storage requirements for the future, and possible optical media for movies. So far, only holographic has the most potential.

Another requirement is permanent storage. Here is an example of a cool technology that Hitachi recently developed. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/26/hitachi-data-glass-one-hundred-million-years_n_1916825.html I am not sure what it's purpose, but I think I read that it could handle 20 layers. I don't see it being UHDTV related.
Edited by Nitro67 - 10/17/12 at 3:09pm
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post #2112 of 3053
10/17/12 at 4:08pm
Super Hi-Vision for consumers will use H.265 as a video compression codec. A few hundred GB is all that will be needed if that. This 1 and 2TB or 100TB "requirement" . . . Baloney! rolleyes.gif
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post #2113 of 3053
10/17/12 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Super Hi-Vision for consumers will use H.265 as a video compression codec. A few hundred GB is all that will be needed if that. This 1 and 2TB or 100TB "requirement" . . . Baloney! rolleyes.gif

I tend to agree. Going from 1920x1080 to 3840x2160 (at the same frame rate) increases the amount of uncompressed data for a movie only by a factor of 400%. Did I read that the color bit depth will be increased from 24 to 36 bits? If so, that's another size increase of 150% . . . for a combined raw data size increase of 600%. But the larger frame size probably provides more opportunity for "intra-frame pixel repetition compression", so the overall compressed data size factor increase might easily be as low as 500%...?! cool.gif

Stepping up to 14|15|16 or 24 "channel based" audio would have only minimal impact . . . but providing an additional MDA soundtrack with 128 objects|beds might add a 'significant' space requirement!

And it would be interesting to find out the size impact of increasing the frame rate.

In any event, I thought the "1 TB to 2 TB" numbers came from estimates for 8K4K movie disks...?!
_
Edited by SoundChex - 10/17/12 at 5:14pm
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post #2114 of 3053
10/17/12 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Super Hi-Vision for consumers will use H.265 as a video compression codec. A few hundred GB is all that will be needed if that. This 1 and 2TB or 100TB "requirement" . . . Baloney! rolleyes.gif

I think we all know that h.265 will be the video compression codec already. Here is a nice calculator to compute the video bitrate, but doesn't have the calculation for video codec or multi channel audio.
http://web.forret.com/tools/video_fps.asp?width=3840&height=2160&fps=120&interlace=on&space=yuv422&depth=10

UHDTV is rather unique, because it is based on several technologies. Not just one technology. If you want to kill the technology and sales of these TV's then compressing it to much would be waste of time and money. So you design the media format to expand in the future. All the papers that I seen so far was on 1Terabyte or 10 Terabyte. The storage industry will fund the next gen media format. The entertainment market is rather small, but I said this int the past. Oh, I used the 100 Terabyte disc as next gen system that would happen in the future.

Lee probably remembers the first hard drive it was only 10 Megabytes, but I am sure he didn't think it would 4 Terabytes in 2012.
Edited by Nitro67 - 10/17/12 at 11:18pm
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post #2115 of 3053
10/17/12 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

In any event, I thought the "1 TB to 2 TB" numbers came from estimates for 8K4K movie disks...?!
_

The next gen media format is based on 4k and the scientists that develop the technology have stated in these journal articles of 1Terabyte as 4th generation optical media storage. 5th Generation is 10Terabyte. I can't post those papers, because there is copyright laws. All these articles have copyrights, and typically you need access to society like (SPIE or IEEE) to read them.
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post #2116 of 3053
10/17/12 at 7:10pm
I just saw this posted on the front page of Avsforum....
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyP View Post

This just in....
Panasonic dismisses TV exit reports.
Seems we have conflicting reports going on now. So right now it's anyone's guess what the future will be.
[Source]


The media has seem to be caught lying again. The media don't seem to check their sources. I can't see any reference on Panasonic's pressroom about it. I have even looked on the Japanese webpage, and there is nothing about it.

Just was rather interesting, but I do see Panasonic working with Apple.
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post #2117 of 3053
10/18/12 at 2:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

I think we all know that h.265 will be the video compression codec already. Here is a nice calculator to compute the video bitrate, but doesn't have the calculation for video codec or multi channel audio.
http://web.forret.com/tools/video_fps.asp?width=3840&height=2160&fps=120&interlace=on&space=yuv422&depth=10
UHDTV is rather unique, because it is based on several technologies. Not just one technology. If you want to kill the technology and sales of these TV's then compressing it to much would be waste of time and money. So you design the media format to expand in the future. All the papers that I seen so far was on 1Terabyte or 10 Terabyte. The storage industry will fund the next gen media format. The entertainment market is rather small, but I said this int the past. Oh, I used the 100 Terabyte disc as next gen system that would happen in the future.

They will compress UHDTV as much as they can get away with so it will fit within the existing infrastructures as best as it can.
Quote:
Lee probably remembers the first hard drive it was only 10 Megabytes, but I am sure he didn't think it would 4 Terabytes in 2012.

Which has nothing to do with prerecorded media. We went from 9GB to 50GB when we went from SD/DVD to HD/BD. And all other sources for HD (file size) are substantially smaller.

The BDA says 4K will fit on a 50GB BD.
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post #2118 of 3053
10/18/12 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

They will compress UHDTV as much as they can get away with so it will fit within the existing infrastructures as best as it can.
Which has nothing to do with prerecorded media. We went from 9GB to 50GB when we went from SD/DVD to HD/BD. And all other sources for HD (file size) are substantially smaller.
The BDA says 4K will fit on a 50GB BD.

Sony knew in journal article papers published in 2008, that it could not be done with Bluray. Each media format always required a new Optical media generation.
The papers list it by Generation for optical media
  • Gen 1 = CD - (Audio only, but CD can do VCD)
  • Gen 2= DVD - (NTSC/PAL (SD))
  • Gen 3 = BD - (HDTV = 1080P)
  • Gen 4 = 1TB - (UHDTV1 or 4k)
  • Gen 5 = 10-12TB (UHDTV2 or 8k)

The papers list the generations of optical format, but I put in the TV format. Gen 4 doesn't state that it will be Holographic format, but there is only 2 options (Thin optical disk is limited to 100GB (format is floppy) or Holographic Disc). Gen 5 only option is Holographic Disc.
I didn't include HD DVD, but it is not listed in the papers. 3D Bluray (1080P) wasn't widely adopted by the consumers, so I doubt if a overcompressed 4K bluray would be accepted either. Also, BDA hasn't released a new 4K spec, so I am unsure why you continue to talk about it. NHK has stated at the NHK open house in May that Bluray can't do the data access speeds required for UHDTV.

The only way that the UHDTV to succeeed is to give the consumer the best quality at the lowest price, which requires new technology to do it. Actually, I recently bought Prometheus on Bluray. The last half of the movie you full of artifacts. I couldn't even watch it. I could understand quality control problems on a rental, but not a new released product. It could be isolated incident, but I have replaced a few movies that had issues in the manufacturing. Amazon replaced it, but I hope it was that one release. I have an extensive bluray collection, but if I am going to new format then I want the best possible optical solution. Sony is also not making new Bluray changers, that is directly from Sony. There is huge demand for those changers now.
Edited by Nitro67 - 10/18/12 at 9:06am
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post #2119 of 3053
10/18/12 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

Sony knew in journal article papers published in 2008, that it could not be done with Bluray. Each media format always required a new Optical media generation.
The papers list it by Generation for optical media
Gen 1 = CD (Audio only, but CD can do VCD)
Gen 2= DVD (NTSC/PAL (SD))
Gen 3 = BD (HDTV = 1080P)
Gen 4 = 1TB (UHDTV1 or 4k) Gen 4 doesn't state that it will be Holographic format, but there is only 2 options (Thin optical disk is limited to 100GB (format is floppy) or Holographic Disc)
Gen 5 = 10-12TB (UHDTV2 or 8k) Holographic format is the only optical media that can do this capacity.
The papers list the generations of optical format, but I put in the TV format. I didn't include HD DVD, but it is not listed in the papers. 3D Bluray (1080P) wasn't widely adopted by the consumers, so I doubt if a overcompressed 4K bluray would be accepted either. Also, BDA hasn't released a new 4K spec, so I am unsure why you continue to talk about it. NHK has stated at the NHK open house in May that Bluray can't do the data access speeds required for UHDTV.
The only way that the UHDTV to succeeed is to give the consumer the best quality at the lowest price, which requires new technology to do it. Actually, I recently bought Prometheus on Bluray. The last half of the movie you full of artifacts. I couldn't even watch it. I could understand quality control problems on a rental, but not a new released product. It could be isolated incident, but I have replaced a few movies that had issues in the manufacturing. Amazon replaced it, but I hope it was that one release. I have an extensive bluray collection, but if I am going to new format then I want the best possible optical solution. Sony is also not making new Bluray changers, that is directly from Sony. There is huge demand for those changers now.

They didn't have H.265 in 2008 wink.gif
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post #2120 of 3053
10/18/12 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

They didn't have H.265 in 2008 wink.gif

Actually, they had h.264. If you read my post, it stated in 2012 at the May Open House that Bluray didn't have data access speed to do UHDTV.
You seem to think it is only capacity. The two requirements is Capacity and Data Access Speed.
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post #2121 of 3053
10/18/12 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

Actually, they had h.264. If you read my post, it stated in 2012 at the May Open House that Bluray didn't have data access speed to do UHDTV.
You seem to think it is only capacity. The two requirements is Capacity and Data Access Speed.

H.264 is not H.265

Very easy to get the Data Access Speed up on a BD - just spin it at 2X speed. That's what they do for 3D BD.
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post #2122 of 3053
10/18/12 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

H.264 is not H.265
Very easy to get the Data Access Speed up on a BD - just spin it at 2X speed. That's what they do for 3D BD.

I recall the Bluray was speed up to 12X and it couldn't do the data access rates required for UHDTV. Who is developing UHDTV? NHK (Japan broadcasting corporation), The source was from NHK, and he stated even with the upgrades that Bluray couldn't handle the data access rates required for UHDTV.

I tend to believe the source from NHK.
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post #2123 of 3053
10/18/12 at 5:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

I recall the Bluray was speed up to 12X and it couldn't do the data access rates required for UHDTV. Who is developing UHDTV? NHK (Japan broadcasting corporation), The source was from NHK, and he stated even with the upgrades that Bluray couldn't handle the data access rates required for UHDTV.
I tend to believe the source from NHK.

Sony just completed a 4K UHDTV SAT broadcast in Europe. They used 50Mbps. That was with H.264. With H.265 and 2X speed, they will achieve the needed data rate with the existing BD specs.
Quote:
The 4K content is being played out in Quad Full HD format encoded in the H.264 standard at a data rate of 50 Mbps and is delivered on Sony Bravia 84″ 4K displays at a pixel resolution of 3840 x 2160.

http://www.digitalproductionme.com/article-5728-sony-and-ses-go-4k-crazy-at-ibc/

THIS thread is about 4K UHDTV, NOT 8K Super Hi-Vision.
Edited by Lee Stewart - 10/18/12 at 5:14pm
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post #2124 of 3053
10/18/12 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

I recall the Bluray was speed up to 12X and it couldn't do the data access rates required for UHDTV. Who is developing UHDTV? NHK (Japan broadcasting corporation), The source was from NHK, and he stated even with the upgrades that Bluray couldn't handle the data access rates required for UHDTV. I tend to believe the source from NHK.

Me too . . . although I'm virtually certain all the quotes from NHK regarding UHDTV recording|playback were only applicable to 8K4K--which looks like it would need a BD-ROM read speed of around 40x! eek.gif

In the shorter time frame--when we don't yet even see a workable business model to get packaged pre-recorded 4K2K source content onto store shelves--it looks like a BD-ROM read speed of around 10x will be sufficient.

(I read somewhere that current BD-ROM movies require about a 54Mbps data transfer rate. Multiply that number by about 6x to get the required BD4K2K rate, at a somewhat higher color bit depth and the same frame rate, giving about 324Mbps . . . which we divide by 36Mbps to get a requirement for a BD-ROM 9x player, or faster. Does that sound about right?)
_
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post #2125 of 3053
10/18/12 at 5:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Me too . . . although I'm virtually certain all the quotes from NHK regarding UHDTV recording|playback were only applicable to 8K4K--which looks like it would need a BD-ROM read speed of around 40x! eek.gif
In the shorter time frame--when we don't yet even see a workable business model to get packaged pre-recorded 4K2K source content onto store shelves--it looks like a BD-ROM read speed of around 10x will be sufficient.
(I read somewhere that current BD-ROM movies require about a 54Mbps data transfer rate. Multiply that number by about 6x to get the required BD4K2K rate, at a somewhat higher color bit depth and the same frame rate, giving about 324Mbps . . . which we divide by 36Mbps to get a requirement for a BD-ROM 9x player, or faster. Does that sound about right?)
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A BD has a max bit rate for video of 40 Mbps. By spinning the disc at 2X speed, that increases the video bit rate to 60Mbps - 10 more Mbps than what Sony used for their 4K SAT demo (50Mbps).

The thing that your equation(s) doesn't take into account is . . . video compression.
Edited by Lee Stewart - 10/18/12 at 5:38pm
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post #2126 of 3053
10/18/12 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Sony just completed a 4K UHDTV SAT broadcast in Europe. They used 50Mbps. That was with H.264. With H.265 and 2X speed, they will achieve the needed data rate with the existing BD specs.

Ok, you lost me here. You are comparing an optical media format to Satellite? I really don't see the comparison. I never heard TrueHD on satellite yet, so how can you compare the 2 different technologies?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

THIS thread is about 4K UHDTV, NOT 8K Super Hi-Vision.

I post on both, the technology was designed around UHDTV1 = 4k and UHDTV2 =8k. If the economy was booming, then 4k might take off. I just doubt many people or broadcasters are going to support this UHDTV1 4k.
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post #2127 of 3053
10/18/12 at 8:34pm
Here is one of the h.265 encoders for broadcasters. http://broadcastengineering.com/encoders/allegro-unveils-first-hevc-h265-compression-equipment
Quote:
While the final standard is to be expected in early 2013, Allegro DVT said its HEVC encoders would evolve (via software upgrades) as new drafts of the standard are submitted.
SES is limited on bandwidth for KU band. It is overloaded, so the satellite companies are developing KA band satellites.
Hughes launched this one summer called Jupiter. Hughes claims it is for internet, but if you dig around on their website. That satellite has capability to also provideo 80,000 movies. http://www.hughes.com/NEWSEVENTS/CHANNELNEWSLETTER/SPRING2011/Pages/Ka-band.aspx

Allegro HEVC decoder. http://www.allegrodvt.com/Allegro/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=80:world-first-hevc-hardware-decoder-ip-at-ibc-2012&catid=1:news
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post #2128 of 3053
10/18/12 at 9:39pm
A 10-bit consumer HEVC profile will be added to HEVC at the next meeting (the meeting notes refer to it as the "Main 10" profile). I posted about the proposal earlier in this thread and the latest version of the proposal was supported by ATEME, BBC, BSkyB, CISCO, DirecTV, Ericsson, Motorola Mobility, NGcodec, NHK, RAI, SVT, Technicolor, Thomson Video Networks, and ViXS Systems. Since the original plan was for additional HEVC profiles to be added a year after the Main profile it is interesting to note that these companies wanted a 10-bit consumer HEVC profile a year earlier than that.

In addition to a 10-bit consumer HEVC profile there will also be a HEVC profile for still pictures (the meeting notes refer to it as the "Main Still Picture" profile). Several proposals from previous HEVC meetings have shown that HEVC is better at compressing still pictures than JPEG2000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Am I correct in guessing that a 4K2K 120p movie will probably require (only) about 500 MB 500 GB to 1 TB on disc? Is there any technology for 'pressing' that size content on disc at this time?
ATEME had a demonstration in which 4K at 60 fps was encoded at 15 Mbps using HEVC. As such for 4K at 120 fps (8-bit 4:2:0) my guess is that with HEVC it would be possible to get acceptable video quality at about 15 GB per hour and good video quality at about 30 GB per hour.
Edited by Richard Paul - 10/18/12 at 9:47pm
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post #2129 of 3053
10/18/12 at 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

4K To Be Renamed This Week
http://hometheaterreview.com/4k-to-be-renamed-this-week/

Consumer Electronics Association Gives 4K a Name
Quote:
4K has a name: Ultra High-Definition.

The Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) Oct. 18 put a name to the next generation of home displays, putting the Ultra HD tag on giant screens with more than eight million pixels of resolution, four times the resolution of today’s widely available HDTVs.
Quote:
CEA’s Board of Industry Leaders unanimously approved the term and minimum requirements for a set or projector to earn the Ultra HD designation, which requires resolution of at least eight million active pixels (at least 3,840 horizontally and at least 2,160 vertically). Displays must have an aspect ratio of at least 16x9. Displays must have a digital input capable of carrying native 4K video, instead of relying solely on up-converting.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/consumer-electronics/consumer-electronics-association-gives-4k-name-28627
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post #2130 of 3053
10/18/12 at 11:55pm
I thought "4K" would replace "HD" and that would have been nice, IMO. But, because they apparently insist on keeping "HD" for some reason, then how about 4HD (4 times resolution of HD), to prepare ground for 16HD (16 times of resolution of HD aka. 8K) to follow in several years? But, the best solution would be to just stick to 4K and 8K later to keep it super-simple. If they rename 4K as Ultra HD, then what what will they call 8K? Super Ultra HD?
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