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4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 74

post #2191 of 3670
Uh-oh! Looks like Sony is going proprietary once again with XAVC 4K format on their 4K Movie Cameras. Rumors are Sony, LG and Toshiba have agreed on a format for 4K Blu-Ray. Could this be it? Could they have put both H.265 and XAVC codec in a new 4K Player? Guess we will find out at CES, but it is looking like we are going to get 4K Blu-ray sooner than expected. Maybe as early as Q2/Q3 of 2013.


"Sony is introducing the new XAVC recording format that will be at the heart of its new 4K products. Sony’s XAVC technology provides a dedicated 4K format that will encourage the adoption of 4K beyond feature films, to genres such as TV dramas, entertainment shows, documentaries and commercials."


http://cinescopophilia.com/more-on-the-4k-xavc-recording-format/
post #2192 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Uh-oh! Looks like Sony is going proprietary once again with XAVC 4K format on their 4K Movie Cameras. Rumors are Sony, LG and Toshiba have agreed on a format for 4K Blu-Ray. Could this be it? Could they have put both H.265 and XAVC codec in a new 4K Player? Guess we will find out at CES, but it is looking like we are going to get 4K Blu-ray sooner than expected. Maybe as early as Q2/Q3 of 2013.
"Sony is introducing the new XAVC recording format that will be at the heart of its new 4K products. Sony’s XAVC technology provides a dedicated 4K format that will encourage the adoption of 4K beyond feature films, to genres such as TV dramas, entertainment shows, documentaries and commercials."
http://cinescopophilia.com/more-on-the-4k-xavc-recording-format/

Built with the principles of workflow efficiency, evolution and optimised image quality at its heart, Sony’s XAVC can support the following content formats:

■4K (4096 x 2160 and 3840 x 2160), HD and proxy resolution
■MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 video compression
■12, 10 and 8 bit colour depth
■Up to 60fps
■MXF wrapping format can be used
■4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0 colour sampling

Note: Each manufacturer will decide which profile and operating point of XAVC they will implement in
their products.


So we still have 8 bit color depth, 4:2:0 Chroma Subsampling and it tops out at 60 fps frown.gif
post #2193 of 3670
I thought REC 2020 was UHD standard?
post #2194 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Uh-oh! Looks like Sony is going proprietary once again with XAVC 4K format on their 4K Movie Cameras. Rumors are Sony, LG and Toshiba have agreed on a format for 4K Blu-Ray. Could this be it? Could they have put both H.265 and XAVC codec in a new 4K Player? Guess we will find out at CES, but it is looking like we are going to get 4K Blu-ray sooner than expected. Maybe as early as Q2/Q3 of 2013

Does this sound like Bluray? "The PVM-X300 can incorporate an optional 4K player, which is capable of easy playback of 4K content. The newly-developed “SxS PRO+” high speed memory media, which supports XAVC 4K and XAVC HD High Frame Rate Recording, can be inserted into the player providing quick viewing of 4K camera images and 4K programs. This SxS Player is expected to be available in the spring of 2013."

Sounds more like SSD than anything? Nope, it looks like SSD, but it is not, according to Sony. http://www.studiodaily.com/2012/10/sony-reveals-f5-and-f55-cinealta-4k-cameras/

Let me know when you figure you, but looks primary aimed at RED.
post #2195 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

SxS 4K Player (Optional)

http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/article/1237488990581

Well, now you are looking a Pro stuff? You might want to look in the medical field too. Sony can rename it, but uh that looks medical field. Barco has 56" monitor for surgery quadhd.
Sony has DisplayPort and HDMI? Let me know when you figure it out!
post #2196 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Maybe because they use 12 and 16bit color depth and RGB 4:4:4 Chroma Subsampling rate. Can DisplayPort 1.2 handle those ?
DisplayPort 1.2 HBR2 can support 4K at 60 fps with 30-bit per pixel RGB over a single connection. Also DisplayPort can support up to 48-bit per pixel RGB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Uh-oh! Looks like Sony is going proprietary once again with XAVC 4K format on their 4K Movie Cameras. Rumors are Sony, LG and Toshiba have agreed on a format for 4K Blu-Ray. Could this be it? Could they have put both H.265 and XAVC codec in a new 4K Player?
Here is a link to the XAVC website and as seen in the press release it uses Level 5.2 MPEG-4 AVC video. The press release mentions that XAVC was designed to be an open format and lists several other companies that are developing software for it. It looks to me like XAVC is for professional recording and it might be a replacement for older tape based formats (such as HDCAM SR).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Built with the principles of workflow efficiency, evolution and optimised image quality at its heart, Sony’s XAVC can support the following content formats:
■4K (4096 x 2160 and 3840 x 2160), HD and proxy resolution
■MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 video compression
■12, 10 and 8 bit colour depth
■Up to 60fps
■MXF wrapping format can be used
■4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0 colour sampling
Note: Each manufacturer will decide which profile and operating point of XAVC they will implement in
their products.

So we still have 8 bit color depth, 4:2:0 Chroma Subsampling and it tops out at 60 fps frown.gif
The other way to look at it is that XAVC can support 4K at 60 fps with 12-bit 4:4:4 color sampling.
post #2197 of 3670
For those that didn't get this; This is a professional monitor for Film making. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that the various formats here will translate into consumer products.


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On another forum there was a claim that there has been 65" 4K UHD TV's for sale in China for several months already for approximately $4000 and lower.

Hisense/ Haixin LED65XT880G3D for prices between 24999CNY/YUAN - 21999CNY/YUAN = 4,007.28 USD - 3,526.47 USD

There is also another 4K UHD model (this might be a 58" model even if the model name on the web sites say it is 65") > Hisense/ Haixin LED58XT880G3D 65" for 13888CNY/YUAN = 2,226.25 USD.

This link is for the 65" 24999Yuan; (just because this has most specs. on the page). Roll down to the bottom for seeing the specs on both UHD models (for those that read Chinese.) wher you will find specs on both a 65" model and a 58" model.
Unfortunately that Asian web-shops tend to pit a lot of text in Jpeg Images, so very little info is gained by using Google translate; http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.9.MsJeAH&id=16274961064


Here is the search results for all the shops that sell these TV's online at Taobao; http://s.taobao.com/search?q=Hisense%2F%BA%A3%D0%C5+LED65XT880G3D+65&searcy_type=item&s_from=newHeader&source=&ssid=s5-e&search=y&initiative_id=itemz_20121031

Interesting pricing to watch compared to Sony and LG's 4K UHD TV offerings.
Is this the price we will see on UHD already in 2013 when Toshiba and the Chinese manufacturers get their UHD products to the US and Europe? cool.gif

From the specs sheet.

Composite from the Taobao web-shop.



Edited by coolscan - 10/31/12 at 4:41am
post #2198 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

Does this sound like Bluray? "The PVM-X300 can incorporate an optional 4K player, which is capable of easy playback of 4K content. The newly-developed “SxS PRO+” high speed memory media, which supports XAVC 4K and XAVC HD High Frame Rate Recording, can be inserted into the player providing quick viewing of 4K camera images and 4K programs. This SxS Player is expected to be available in the spring of 2013."
Sounds more like SSD than anything? Nope, it looks like SSD, but it is not, according to Sony. http://www.studiodaily.com/2012/10/sony-reveals-f5-and-f55-cinealta-4k-cameras/
Let me know when you figure you, but looks primary aimed at RED.

I know this is not Blu-Ray, but what I am asking is are they going to use their XAVC codec instead of, or in addition to the H.265 codec, in their new 4K Blu-ray players. We all know Sony loves proprietary formats.
Edited by sytech - 10/31/12 at 8:13am
post #2199 of 3670
Quote:
"AXSM media is not an SSD," said Juan Martinez, senior product manager at Sony Electronics' Professional Solutions of America, referring to the new memory type that will hold raw recordings. "It has the same type of safety mechanisms as SR memory, so it is possible to record data in the case of a malfunction. It's very robust."

http://www.studiodaily.com/2012/10/sony-reveals-f5-and-f55-cinealta-4k-cameras/

LOL! How many memory systems exist that can fit in a SSD size card?
Sony marketing is always so full of it!
Always wanting to be "so very special" like some juvenile schoolgirl. tongue.gif
Bet it is a regular flash memory inside just like an SSD. wink.gif
post #2200 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I thought REC 2020 was UHD standard?
It's only a small part of the puzzle. It just defines the colorimetry and resolution. There are many other components and associated standards that will make up the complete UHDTV standard (such as video codec, audio format and codec, uncompressed transport, etc.).

You're also going to see plenty of interim 4K products using H.264 and BT.709 colorimetry. There's currently no way to signal BT.2020 in H.264, but it will probably be added pretty soon.

Ron
post #2201 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

It's only a small part of the puzzle. It just defines the colorimetry and resolution. There are many other components and associated standards that will make up the complete UHDTV standard (such as video codec, audio format and codec, uncompressed transport, etc.).
You're also going to see plenty of interim 4K products using H.264 and BT.709 colorimetry. There's currently no way to signal BT.2020 in H.264, but it will probably be added pretty soon.
Ron

Why bother when H.265 is right around the corner and will become the preferred video codec.
post #2202 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Why bother when H.265 is right around the corner and will become the preferred video codec.
You are aware that there is a development cycle for technology products? When do you think Sony started development of their XAVC cameras? Yesterday? Also, there's the concept of building an ecosystem. Sony is trying to get the 4K ecosystem bootstrapped, not sit on their thumbs waiting for HEVC.

Ron
post #2203 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

You are aware that there is a development cycle for technology products? When do you think Sony started development of their XAVC cameras? Yesterday? Also, there's the concept of building an ecosystem. Sony is trying to get the 4K ecosystem bootstrapped, not sit on their thumbs waiting for HEVC.
Ron
Don't mix up professional and consumer standards.
The XAVC used in the new F5/F55 cameras is the Sony RAW proprietary codec for professional capture for Cinema and Broadcast with a wider colorspace than Rec.709.
Sony can not use their own proprietary codec for consumer playback and display products. They have to use HEVC and MPEG-H or else their products will not be compatible with global delivery standards.
post #2204 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Don't mix up professional and consumer standards.
The XAVC used in the new F5/F55 cameras is the Sony RAW proprietary codec for professional capture for Cinema and Broadcast with a wider colorspace than Rec.709.
Sony can not use their own proprietary codec for consumer playback and display products. They have to use HEVC and MPEG-H or else their products will not be compatible with global delivery standards.

You're the one that's mixed up. XAVC is H.264 at level 5.2.

Ron
post #2205 of 3670
post #2206 of 3670
well we did have d-theater. I think their is a chance for Sony to do the same thing. Here is why.

D-theater tapes are much more expensive to replicate than any disc and then their is the shipping/storage of them. The D-theater deck in relation to R&D should be in the same range as a consumer/prosumer quad disc deck.

I think it might happen but then small install based proprietary playback systems seem to not be that profitable or viable for the last 10 years and possibly never will be again.
post #2207 of 3670
Samsung to launch ultra high definition TV in India next year
Quote:
New Delhi: Korean electronics major Samsung said it will introduce ultra high definition television sets in India by the end of next year after it rolls out the technology globally in 2013. Samsung has already developed the technology for ultra high-definition television (UHDTV), which has a minimum resolution of 3840x2160 pixels or 8.3 megapixels.

"We have developed the technology and are ready with it. We are planning to introduce it globally sometime next year and the India-launch will happen by the end of next year," Samsung India Electronics General Manager (AV Division) Taeho Park told reporters here. The company is not launching UHDTV immediately as the content is not yet available for it, he added.

http://ibnlive.in.com/newstopics/ultra-high-definition-tv-sets.html
post #2208 of 3670
post #2209 of 3670
> Three TV improvements more worthwhile than Ultra HD 4K

Contrast ratio:
Manufactures are already doing what they can for contrast. 4K will neither help nor hinder this effort.

Compression:
Upcoming compression algorithms should make 4K a break even for both Broadcast and disc media (with quad layering). On the other hand, as much as I like 4K, I've been recording in it since last spring, I don't see it being broadcast for a long time if ever. I suspect broadcasters were prodded into converting to HDTV by the government so they could then sell the old empty analog channels that only served to prevent interference between adjacent analog TV channels. There will be no equivalent benefit to switching to 4K over the air transmissions. Broadcasters spent a lot of money upgrading to HD without the hope of getting any new viewers. They won't voluntarily do that again.

4K will serve mainly as a commercial and home theater enthusiast format. Most people with get 4K TV's when the technology is cheap and already included on TV's available at discount stores. Having said that, very large TV's are getting pretty affordable and HD doesn't look good on very large sets. It remains to be seen how many people have room for very large TV's.

Color:
I once had the pleasure of seeing a demonstration of a six primary color video system. In addition to red, green, and blue, as I recall, both the camera and the monitor had violet, cyan and yellow sensors and emitters. They successfully demonstrated the system could more faithfully reproduce color that our current three color system. It's unfortunate that it won't be included on our next standard.
post #2210 of 3670
4K Delivery... get ready.

First 4K playback machines available in the market from December 2012.

RedRay 4K players.
Quote:
Jarred Land; Red Digital Cinema Camera Company.

I know we have been harping about 4K distribution forever... but it is about to get very real.

Now is a good time to figure out ( if you haven't already ) how to prepare, conform and finish everything important that you have shot in 4K. There are going to be alot of people very happy that they chose a camera that was ready for this whole new world of distribution.

The Consumer Electronics Association has finally laid down the UHD 4K rules for Displays... and they don't take kindly to anything below 3840 x 2160.. In fact.. they don't allow it.

4K Displays are here, and their prices are dropping every month. Soon they will be in reach of the masses.

And then there is REDRAY... the crown jewel of 4K content delivery.

Next month we start shipping 4k REDRAY players to a lot of new eyeballs.. consumers and professionals alike.. and they are going to want the same thing... 4K content.

For REDRAY we have partnered with one of the most innovative content distribution companies that both content owners and viewers have ever seen...and we built it right into RedRay.

Expect the official REDRAY and 4k Content Distribution network announcement along with pre-orders to happen in a couple weeks.. but I thought it was important to give you all a heads up so you can prepare.

Our Production Lines are churning.. manufacturing is ramping up.

We are ready.... are you?
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88303-4K-Delivery-get-ready&p=1091349&viewfull=1#post1091349


And if you like to shoot 4K digital motion. RED is now selling out their Red One camera bodies for $4000 until stock is depleted.
That's 4K for $4K. cool.gif
Edited by coolscan - 11/4/12 at 6:03am
post #2211 of 3670
Redray is going to be nice for the professional and media production customers, but no way is it going to become the consumer 4K player. For that we will have to wait for Sony to announce at CES what the 4K blu-ray plans will be.
post #2212 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Redray is going to be nice for the professional and media production customers, but no way is it going to become the consumer 4K player. For that we will have to wait for Sony to announce at CES what the 4K blu-ray plans will be.
This is not the professional version of the RedRay player, this is the consumer playback version. Just waiting for the price to see "how much consumer" it will be.
It will of course not compete with a future 4K BD player for global dominance, but will be an alternative and first available 4K content delivery system for the early adopters of 4K displays.
The most exciting of course is, which content delivery company they have partnered up with.
post #2213 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

This is not the professional version of the RedRay player, this is the consumer playback version. Just waiting for the price to see "how much consumer" it will be.
It will of course not compete with a future 4K BD player for global dominance, but will be an alternative and first available 4K content delivery system for the early adopters of 4K displays.
The most exciting of course is, which content delivery company they have partnered up with.

That is if there is a Sony 4k BD player. So far they both are just appear to be SSD drives. Sony has their own type and so does RED. We have to see if the elusive 4k Bluray player makes as showing.
post #2214 of 3670
In other words, we're in for another format war, which can only hurt its acceptance.

*sigh*
post #2215 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

In other words, we're in for another format war, which can only hurt its acceptance.
*sigh*

Don't worry. The PS4 will end it quick.

Team blu!!!
post #2216 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Don't worry. The PS4 will end it quick.
Team blu!!!
You don't know the full details of either next-generation format yet, and there hasn't been an announcement by the BDA confirming that there will be a 4K Blu-ray format.

Do you want the best format (whichever that is) or the one with "Blu-" in the name, no matter what the specs/features/content availability etc. is?
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 11/5/12 at 8:12am
post #2217 of 3670
I want a single 4K format and "universal" players that'll play the current shiny-disc formats in addition to whatever the 4K format is. One can hope that they learned from the BD vs HD DVD wars, but I have the strong suspicion that the "not invented here" syndrome will cause the Blu-ray organization to come out with their own format, incompatible with RED's format.

My reading of RED's website is that REDRAY players don't play optical discs at all.
post #2218 of 3670
It is obvious the format will be what every Sony wants it to be as they have both the hardware and content to make it happen. Since the blu-ray infastructure is already in place it will most likely be BD4K using h.265 or their recently developed XAVC. Rumors are the PS4 will have 4K blu-ray capability and will be out Christmas 2013, but I would think they should have something out a little earlier. They will probably have something to show at the upcoming CES and should be in production by Q2/Q3 2013, as most of the components already are off the shelf.
post #2219 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Since the blu-ray infrastructure is already in place it will most likely be BD4K using h.265 or their recently developed XAVC.

The XAVC video stream is Intra frame only, so the bitrate is pretty high. 300 Mbps for 4K@30p. Not a good choice for a consumer format.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/pdf/F55_Camera.pdf

Ron
post #2220 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

The XAVC video stream is Intra frame only, so the bitrate is pretty high. 300 Mbps for 4K@30p. Not a good choice for a consumer format.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/pdf/F55_Camera.pdf
Ron

Wow, 300MBPs. Didn't realize it was that high. You are right then, not a good fit for the existing blu-ray infrastructure. Must look nice with all that bandwidth though. So it looks like the h.265 codec it will be then.
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