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4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 75

post #2221 of 3072
11/6/12 at 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

> I don't see (4K) being broadcast for a long time if ever. I suspect broadcasters were prodded into converting to HDTV by the government so they could then sell the old empty analog channels that only served to prevent interference between adjacent analog TV channels. There will be no equivalent benefit to switching to 4K over the air transmissions. Broadcasters spent a lot of money upgrading to HD without the hope of getting any new viewers. They won't voluntarily do that again.

Wow! I stand corrected. It looks like we won't have to wait another few decades for the next broadcast TV revolution after all. ATSC (the folks who established UHF and VHF HDTV in the USA) are already working on a 4K upgrade.

http://atsc.org/newsletter/2012/08/atsc-partipating-in-new-cea-4k-working-group/
http://atsc.org/newsletter/2012/08/atsc-2-0-work-on-track-for-candidate-standard/
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2222 of 3072
11/7/12 at 7:00am
Chinese 4K TVs.
The Hisense XT880 line, 50'', 58'' and 65''.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/07/hisense-jumps-into-4k-tvs-with-the-xt880/
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post #2223 of 3072
11/7/12 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

Wow! I stand corrected. It looks like we won't have to wait another few decades for the next broadcast TV revolution after all. ATSC (the folks who established UHF and VHF HDTV in the USA) are already working on a 4K upgrade.
http://atsc.org/newsletter/2012/08/atsc-partipating-in-new-cea-4k-working-group/
http://atsc.org/newsletter/2012/08/atsc-2-0-work-on-track-for-candidate-standard/

You might be getting a little ahead of yourself here...! biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

http://atsc.org/newsletter/2012/08/atsc-2-0-work-on-track-for-candidate-standard/

. . . includes the quote . . .
Quote:
To explore the current status of the emerging ATSC 2.0 effort, The Standard interviewed ATSC President Mark Richer:

Work’s been going on with ATSC 2.0 throughout 2012. What’s the current status? Are we making progress?

Richer: TG1 is on track to advance ATSC 2.0 to a Candidate Standard before the end of 2012. We have a goal of completing the ATSC 2.0 Standard for adoption in the first quarter of 2013.

. . . which details a 2012|2013 timeframe for the ATSC 2.0 Standard, but . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

http://atsc.org/newsletter/2012/08/atsc-partipating-in-new-cea-4k-working-group/

. . . includes the quote . . .
Quote:
Participation in the {new Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) “4K” Working Group} by the ATSC and many of its members is important because 4K may emerge as a key element of the future ATSC 3.0 standard.

. . . which references--but does NOT provide a timeframe for--the ATSC 3.0 Standard, and the ATSC 3.0 Standard seems likely will first support 4K broadcasting...?! cool.gif
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Edited by SoundChex - 11/7/12 at 8:39am
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post #2224 of 3072
11/7/12 at 9:27am
I know they are not considering switching to 4K real soon. They do mention that ATSC 3.0 would not be backwards compatible. I'm surprised they are considering it at all.

In the mean time DirectTV plans to roll out of 4K channels starting in 2016. They successfully switched their customers from MPEG2 to MPEG4 recievers, so shouldn't have much difficulty switching to 4K's encoding standard.

On the other hand, it literally takes an act of congress to get over the air standards upgraded. Analog color TV (NTSC) lasted over half a century. It's beginning to look like HDTV (ATSC 1.0) might only last half that time.
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post #2225 of 3072
11/7/12 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

I know they are not considering switching to 4K real soon. They do mention that ATSC 3.0 would not be backwards compatible. I'm surprised they are considering it at all.


The ATSC Planning Team 2 9/21/2011 publication, Final Report on ATSC 3.0 Next Generation Broadcast Television (link), includes the following "conclusions":
Quote:
5 SUMMARY & CONCLUSIONS

5.1 Potential Timeframes for ATSC 3.0

Perhaps even more challenging than forecasting what technologies will arise in the future is specifying when they will arrive at sufficient maturity to be deployed for viable consumer service.

PT-2 concludes that technical, business and regulatory developments may all influence the specific timeframes for the ATSC 3.0 era, and therefore recommends that those involved in the ATSC 3.0 development pay close attention to all such developmental contexts as their work proceeds. [ . . . ]


Your tax dollars at work! eek.gifcool.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #2226 of 3072
11/7/12 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Your tax dollars at work!

ATSC is not a government organization. It's funded by member dues.

Ron
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post #2227 of 3072
11/11/12 at 10:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

In other words, we're in for another format war, which can only hurt its acceptance.
*sigh*
RED has never released a consumer video format, there have not yet been any objective tests done on the proprietary video codec that REDRAY will use, we don't know most of the technical details for REDRAY, we don't know how much REDRAY movies will cost, and we don't know which studios will support REDRAY. RED has done well in the professional world but REDRAY will be their first major consumer product. There is a chance that REDRAY could end up like D-Theater in that it might be a short term solution for the high end consumer market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

I know they are not considering switching to 4K real soon. They do mention that ATSC 3.0 would not be backwards compatible. I'm surprised they are considering it at all.
I think that ATSC 3.0 will eventually make sense simply for economic reasons. The combination of an old modulation system and MPEG-2 means that each 6 MHz channel carries a lot less video than it could. Just a guess but I think we will see ATSC 3.0 used in 4 to 8 years.
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post #2228 of 3072
11/13/12 at 1:16am
Mine is the biggest... by full one inch biggrin.gif.
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post #2229 of 3072
11/13/12 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Mine is the biggest... by full one inch biggrin.gif.

Sorry Samsung, you already have been beaten by a full 25 inches in the 4K LCD arena.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1331720721
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post #2230 of 3072
11/13/12 at 11:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Sorry Samsung, you already have been beaten by a full 25 inches in the 4K LCD arena.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1331720721

No, this size competition is about the real stuff: “the world’s largest commercialized UHD LED TV”. tongue.gif
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post #2231 of 3072
11/14/12 at 9:01am
The 110" TCL set is just as real and commercialized as Samsung's 85" 4K and 55" OLED vaporware sets.
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post #2232 of 3072
11/14/12 at 9:30am
Sony thinking about releasing XAVC to the consumer market for 4K video.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/14/sony-to-release-xavc-4k-video-spec/
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post #2233 of 3072
11/14/12 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Sony thinking about releasing XAVC to the consumer market for 4K video.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/14/sony-to-release-xavc-4k-video-spec/
This has nothing to do with consumer market.
Sony will release an SDK to Apple and Adobe so people shooting with the professional F5 and F55 cameras are able to edit their movies in FCPx and Premiere Pro. If they didn't do this, nobody could edit the movies shot on these cameras. This is normal procedure when using new camera codex.
Sony is not "thinking about this", it necessary or the cameras would be DOA in the film industry.
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post #2234 of 3072
11/14/12 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

This has nothing to do with consumer market.
Sony will release an SDK to Apple and Adobe so people shooting with the professional F5 and F55 cameras are able to edit their movies in FCPx and Premiere Pro. If they didn't do this, nobody could edit the movies shot on these cameras. This is normal procedure when using new camera codex.
Sony is not "thinking about this", it necessary or the cameras would be DOA in the film industry.

Maybe you missed this quote in the link.

"Sony says the format may come to consumer products as well"

XAVC is an open-standard based on Level 5.2 H.264, Canon can also use if they want to. Basically this is AVC that can support up to 12-bit 4:4:4 4K at 60 fps. And 600Mbps at 4:2:2 4K at 60fps (used by pro cameras). Canon will eventually move to XAVC, or another codec like it, for their 4K cameras (right now they record 4K in MJpeg for the Eos 1D-C, and RAW in their C500).

For the consumer end, all of this is a stop-gap until H.265 comes out next year. However, for cameras you want to support a lower-compression codec, meaning H.265 won't be used by high-end cameras like the F5, F55, and F65. XAVC will likely be the main codec to shoot 4K in with in the future (RAW will remain for cinema applications).

Likely 4K blu-ray will support H.264-based XAVC and H.265 HEVC as the delivery format.
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post #2235 of 3072
11/14/12 at 4:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Maybe you missed this quote in the link.
"Sony says the format may come to consumer products as well"
Yeah, to Sony consumer products, as in video cameras.
Nobody else will touch Sony propriety formats.
All stills cameras manufacturers use their propriety codex for RAW, and so it will be for 4K consumer cameras.
For non Raw prosumer 4K video codex in cameras they will use HEVC/Mpeg-H because it will be a worldwide standard and not a codex they'll have to license from their competitor.
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post #2236 of 3072
11/14/12 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech 
The 110" TCL set is just as real and commercialized as Samsung's 85" 4K and 55" OLED vaporware sets.
We will see a 55'' samsung OLEd, we might gonna see a 85'' 4K samsung edge lit and we will not see a 110'' 4K TCL on the market this or next year.
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post #2237 of 3072
11/15/12 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

We will see a 55'' samsung OLEd, we might gonna see a 85'' 4K samsung edge lit and we will not see a 110'' 4K TCL on the market this or next year.

Unlike the 2 Samsung vaporware sets, you can actually buy the TCL in China.
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post #2238 of 3072
11/15/12 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech 
..., you can actually buy the TCL in China.
Quote:
These 4K 3D displays are more of a technology showcase so such high resolution 3D sets will not be available to consumers any time soon.

http://www.3dfocus.co.uk/3d-news-2/3d-technology/4k-full-hd-110%E2%80%9D-monster-3dtv-showcased/7711
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post #2239 of 3072
11/15/12 at 10:50am
Doesn't look like the 110" 4K TV is in regular sales yet. Would be interesting to know the price in China.

But This was 8 months ago.
March 9; http://www.ecns.cn/business/2012/04-09/12179.shtml
End of article.
Quote:
Shenzhen China Star Optoelectronics Technology has already received orders for the 110-inch display from domestic and overseas companies.

However, the company's CEO, He Chengming, said most of the orders came from Chinese companies, such as its parent company TCL, Chinese TV maker Hisense Group and Haier Co Ltd.
The 110" UHD TV model name is "China Star"!

However;
November 5, 2012.
CSOT World’s Highest Standard 55-inch 4X Full HD LCD Screen Makes Stunning Debut at the FPD International 2012
Quote:
Yokohama, October 31,2012 - China Star Optoelectronics Technology (CSOT)a business group of TCL Corporation, unveiled its newly developed product-the 55-inch 4X full HD LCD screen for the first time at the FPD International 2012,an industry-renowned global platform that showcased the most advanced technology and future lifestyle trends.
The launch ceremony was held at the opening day,which impressed the guests of the show and signified a great step forward for China’s display technology era as well as a historical breakthrough for China’s video industry.It also changed the status of China’s long-term dependence on importing large LCD TV panels.

A key highlight at the FPD International 2012 - the 55-inch 4X full HD LCD screen,is another major innovative breakthrough for CSOT since its development of the “China Star”.

The product integrates multiple advanced techniques including its self-innovating HVA technology, 4K2K Ultra High Resolution, 5.0mm narrow bezel, green energy-saving LED-backlight design and a high transmission rate. The 4K2K Ultra High Resolution technology presents a powerful expression of vivid three-dimensional picture quality.
At half the size of similar products, the 5.0mm narrow bezel exemplifies the highest level of technology within the industry.Through the release of its 55-inch 4X full HD LCD screen, CSOT has reinforced its leading position in China’s panel display industry as well as demonstrated its potential as a highly innovative world-class enterprise.

At the FPD International 2012, CSOT also showcased its comprehensive product line including its28-inch, 32-inch and 37-inch HVA products, 46-inch SG 3D, 48-inch SG/FPR 3D products and the world’s largest 110-inch 4X full high definition 3D LCD screen - the “China Star”.

Just half a month ago, CSOT’s 8.5G LCD panel production line had reached full capacity ahead of schedule at 108,000 sheets per month, setting a new milestone for China’s LCD panel industry. According to the latest Display Search report, CSOT’s product shipment volume in September 2012 has surpassed that of SHARP Corporation to become the fifth highest in the world, achieving a 9.5% global market share. This is on top of CSOT becoming the second largest LCD panel supplier in the China market.

Mr.Chen Liyi, Acting CEO of CSOT said, “Realizing the full capacity of the 8.5G LCD panel production line as well as developing the industry-leading 55-inch 4X full HD LCD screen and the “China Star” all demonstrate CSOT’s capability in research and independent innovation.We have performed well in patent technology, having submitted a cumulative total of 1,684 applications with 273 authorized to date. We will further increase our R&D investments to strengthen our leading technology capability and solidify CSOT’s competitive edge on the international platform.”

The success of CSOT has enabled TCL Corporation to become the first company in China to produce LCD TV sets all by itself, promoting closer upstream-downstream cooperation and enhancing related industries.
These achievements also strengthen China’s position as the third country to have successfully developed high-end display technology, just behind Japan and South Korea.With the production of LCD panels now focused in China, TCL will play a more important role in the global market, continuing to drive the entire domestic panel industry to break the past international bottleneck and boost the overall competitiveness of China's color TV industry in the future.

October 13, 2012.
Quote:
The 8.5G LCD Panel Project of CSOT Reaches Full Capacity Earlier than Scheduled with 108,000 Sheets per Month.
October 13th, Shenzhen - China Star Optoelectronics Technology Co Ltd., a business union of TCL Corporation- a world leader in consumer electronics industry,announced that its 8.5G LCD panel production line has reached full capacity three months ahead of the original schedule. The 8.5G LCD panel production line is nowable to produce 108,000 sheets per month, with a product yield of 95%. This achievement not only marks the total success of China Star Optoelectronics Technology’s 8.5G LCD panel project but also sets a new milestone for China’s LCD panel industry.

In August 2012, China Star Optoelectronics Technology announced a sales volume of 1.23 million units for its panels and modules, setting a record of ten months - the shortest time taken to produce millions of sheets in the panel industry.

95% yield on their 8.5G production line; http://itersnews.com/?p=14610

So now, China is even more a player in the TV game. cool.gif
Edited by coolscan - 11/15/12 at 11:01am
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post #2240 of 3072
11/15/12 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Doesn't look like the 110" 4K TV is in regular sales yet. Would be interesting to know the price in China.
But This was 8 months ago.
March 9; http://www.ecns.cn/business/2012/04-09/12179.shtml
End of article.
The 110" UHD TV model name is "China Star"!
However;
November 5, 2012.
CSOT World’s Highest Standard 55-inch 4X Full HD LCD Screen Makes Stunning Debut at the FPD International 2012
October 13, 2012.
95% yield on their 8.5G production line; http://itersnews.com/?p=14610
So now, China is even more a player in the TV game. cool.gif

How long has that company been in business? The article says that Chinese company started only researching the technology in 2009, so now they are making TV's? I be worried about their quality control.
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post #2241 of 3072
11/15/12 at 10:47pm
This Chinese review of the Hisense LED58XT880G3D has a "reference price" (a translation) of 2500 dollars. Can that be right? I brought my phone closer to me, so i wouldn't get hurt physically diving for it if that turns out to be true. Nice looking TV too. The glasses are active, so its not polarized? Maybe interlaced, but hopefully full 4k active capable for PC gaming.

http://tv.yesky.com/17/34049517_2.shtml
Edited by tory40 - 11/16/12 at 8:18am
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post #2242 of 3072
11/16/12 at 12:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tory40 View Post

This Chinese review of the Hisense LED58XT880G3D has a "reference price" (a translation) of 2500 dollars. Can that be right? I brought my phone closer to me, so i wouldn't get hurt physically diving for it if that turns out to be true. Nice looking TV too. The glasses are active, so its not polarized? Maybe interlaced, but hopefully full 4k active capable for PC gaming.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftv.yesky.com%2F17%2F34049517.shtml2437
(To bad your link is broken.)

Yes, that would be about right price. 13888 Yuan = 2,226.41 USD, and the lowest price of the 65" isn't bad either; 21,999.00 CNY = 3,526.47 USD
58" > http://s.taobao.com/search?q=Hisense%2F%BA%A3%D0%C5+LED58XT880G3D+58&initiative_id=staobaoz_20121116
65" > http://s.taobao.com/search?q=Hisense%2F%BA%A3%D0%C5+LED65XT880G3D+65&searcy_type=item&s_from=newHeader&source=&ssid=s5-e&search=y&initiative_id=itemz_20121031

Hisense is selling TV's in the US, but are they keeping the Chinese prices for the 4K/UHD TV's or are they going to lay just below Sony, LG, Toshiba and Samsung?
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post #2243 of 3072
11/16/12 at 12:51am
Coming back to visual aspects, I just bought a 32" LG HDTV (for building my exclusive outside interactive system). This provided me opportunity to use my dual output PC for direct side-by-side comparison of the 32" HDTV with Samsung 27" monitor @2560x1440. Viewing distance varied from 1PH to 2PH. The size of the 32" would make it out-of-this-earth computer monitor but what came out is that for the computer monitor scenario, the 32" @1920x1080 is too big (or resolution is not enough), pixels are annoyingly visible at distances 1-1.5 PH, they tend to disappear for me at 2 PH but my eysight is not of top quality. On the other hand the 27" @2560x1440 shows no pixels, picture i silky smooth. Taking into account the 5" size difference one can conclude that for the 32" monitor, the 2560x1440 resolution could be just minimum sufficient but only 4K would totally eliminate problems with pixels. This is thus a clear case where the 4K is really needed: 32" (and bigger) computer monitor.
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post #2244 of 3072
11/16/12 at 8:17am
Updated the link

review: http://tv.yesky.com/17/34049517_2.shtml

Im sure theres other ways too, but I downloaded Chrome just so it would automatically translate every page.
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post #2245 of 3072
11/16/12 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tory40 View Post

Updated the link
review: http://tv.yesky.com/17/34049517_2.shtml
Im sure theres other ways too, but I downloaded Chrome just so it would automatically translate every page.

Thank you for the link.

After reading the review and cheking out the specs from the vendors, I am still confused whether this is really a 4K/UHD TV, or if its just a 1920x1080p 3D TV.

He opens the review like this; (from google translate)
Quote:
At the end of September 2012, Hisense released flagship model XT880 Series LCD TV , and 8.31's IFA 2012 in Berlin, Germany on show products XT880 Series includes three products, respectively, for the 50-inch, 58-inch and 65-inch products. 50-inch and 65-inch TV resolution 4K resolution of 3840 * 2160, which is in the next few years to be popular ultra-high-resolution TV.
The evaluation room received recently a model LED58XT880G3D products, it is only three XT880 series in Taiwan and Africa 4K TV. XT880 series of Smart TV using the dual-core 1.2GHz CPU , Mali-400 dual-core GPU, up to 16GB of mass storage

From then on he doesn't mention 4K whatsoever, or any up-conversion to 4K ability of the TV.

He makes a thorough evaluation of the picture quality, and from what I can understand is not very happy. He also mention this;
Quote:
Hisense LED58XT880G3D reaches 72.48% of the NTSC 1953 color gamut standards, compared with Japan and South Korea based products compared some gaps.

Then I checked out all the vendors, and they all start with a spec sheet that gives the resolution of 1920x1080.
After that there is this big UHD TV promotion.
Some vendors that have 1920x1080 in the initial spec sheet has also a spec sheet at the bottom of the page that has 3840x2160. Other vendors with spec sheets both at the top and bottom of the page just repeat the 1920x1080 resolution.

Really confusing.
Is this some Hisense promotion that is mistakenly added to a HD version of a TV that will later come with UHD resolution?. Just a way to tell people that it is "UHD Ready" so it can accept UHD TV later. Or will the 3840x2160 resolution be activated at a later stage by a software upgrade?

Anybody that has any clue to what is going on?

This spec sheets from the bottom of the page of two of the vendors.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.40.flpjVO&id=16274749937


This one starts with a spec sheet with 2560x1080, and ends with this;
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.256.flpjVO&id=20249696550


Example of vendor that use 1920x1080 in both spes sheets (top and bottom of page) and still has the UHD promotion;
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.34.flpjVO&id=20861740762

confused.gifconfused.gifconfused.gif
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post #2246 of 3072
11/16/12 at 3:19pm
i've seen it before that sites make up specs before stuff is actually for sale.

The 65XT880 is 4K UHD (search: xt880)
http://www.hisense.com/en/search_399.html

the 50''and 58'' should also be 4K UHD
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/07/hisense-jumps-into-4k-tvs-with-the-xt880/


is not yet on the hisense sites

Hisense.com
http://www.hisense.com/en/pds/

Hisense USA
http://hisense-usa.com/alltvs/index.asp
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post #2247 of 3072
11/17/12 at 12:32pm
"First ever 4K TV production"

http://www.redsharknews.com/business/item/226-a-historic-moment-for-tv-the-first-4k-tv-series-is-announced
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post #2248 of 3072
11/18/12 at 12:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tory40 View Post

"First ever 4K TV production"
http://www.redsharknews.com/business/item/226-a-historic-moment-for-tv-the-first-4k-tv-series-is-announced
Just the usual hyperbole wherever Sony is involved.
Many European TV stations have already shot drama series with a 4K finish. Some of these will air before Christmas, but in HD of course. The TV stations drama and series productions say that for international sales, many buyers/distributors already demands that the productions they evaluate to buy are made in 4K.
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post #2249 of 3072
11/19/12 at 1:10pm
How much better does 3D look with 4K?
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post #2250 of 3072
11/19/12 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

How much better does 3D look with 4K?

A whole lot... I saw 3D on a Sony 84 inch which uses passive glasses. I sat within 7 feet of the screen. (yes I know this is close but the sales guy insisted that I sit this close as apparently one of the features of 4k is that you can sit this close and not see any pixels) The scene was dramatically better then anyhhing I have ever seen. First of all the passive glasses do not reduce the brightness much. (this I believe is not true with active glasses) Secondly the resolution is much much better. Salesman said that this was because the set was producing 2k per eye. (if true a dramatic increase in resolution over any active glasses setup I have seen to date)

One thing that wasn't so good on this set was that action scenes (especially in 3D) showed motion problems. Salesman said it could have been the tv's settings or that the panel was only 120hx. I do not know if any of the salesman"s statements were true. If anyone knows please advise as to the 2k per eye in 3D and the 120 hz panel.
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