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4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 86

post #2551 of 3670
]A new video coding standard building on the PrimeTime Emmy award winning ITU-T H.264 / MPEG-4 AVC was agreed by ITU members today



High Efficiency Video Coding HEVC (also known as H.265 and MPEG-H Part 2)


HEVC will unleach a new phase of innovation in video production spanning the whole ICT spectrum, from mobile devices through to Ultra-High Definition TV.
http://www.itu.int/net/pressoffice/press_releases/2013/01.aspx



* The new standard includes a 'Main' profile that supports 8-bit 4:2:0 video, a 'Main 10' profile with 10-bit support, and a 'Main Still Picture' profile for still image coding that employs the same coding tools as a video 'intra' picture.

** The ITU/ISO/IED Joint Collaborative Team on Video Coding (JCT-VC) (formarly JVT) will continue work on a range of extensions to HEVC, including support for 12-bit video as well as 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 chroma formats. Another important element of this work will be the progression of HEVC towards scalable video coding. The three bodies will also work within the Joint Collaborative Team on 3D-Video (JCT-3V) on the extension of HEVC towards stereoscopic and 3D video coding.




MPEG LA
The Standard for Standards
http://www.mpegla.com/main/Pages/About.aspx
Edited by 8mile13 - 1/27/13 at 7:12am
post #2552 of 3670
Yeah, we've been talking about that like it's a given for nearly a year. It's very approximately 2x as efficient by most accounts.
post #2553 of 3670
Will it mean that DirecTV can compress more and give us Siberian High School Football on channel number 1200 with quality about like DVD?
post #2554 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Will it mean that DirecTV can compress more and give us Siberian High School Football on channel number 1200 with quality about like DVD?

Exactly so. No matter what the compression standard is, broadcasters have interest in squeezing the bitrate as much as possible. They will use minimum rate at which people do not complain. This is why Blue-ray has much higher rate than broadcast. The difference is pretty dramatic if one is taking into account Blu-ray is non-real time and can be optimized multiple times for best PQ.
post #2555 of 3670
^^and that is why i stopped watching HD satellite movies, instaed i buy blu-ray movies and series. Still watching DiscoveryHD, HistoryHD and Nat GeoHD though smile.gif


The Japanese government is set to launch the world's first 4K TV broadcast in July 2014, roughly two year ahead of schedule, to help stir demand for ultra high-definition televisions. Also Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications plans to launch the test 8K broadcast in 2016 two years ahead of schedule.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/27/us-japan-hdtv-idUSBRE90Q02520130127?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtechnologyNews+%28Reuters+Technology+News%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
post #2556 of 3670
Yup,

Most of the broadcast HD I have is of quite disappointing quality, which is one reason I buy Blu-Rays. (I'm movie-oriented).
post #2557 of 3670

Do you know how to read at all? The article says 300 units, not 300%. 300 sets is rather sad for a new technology. I suspect that LG needs close to 1 million sets to break even on their production costs. Anyway, Here is a slide that shows that 36% of the USA population hasn't even adopted to HDTV. It is Slide 4 of this link. http://www.slideshare.net/digallo/digital-life-canada-vs-us-metrics-2012 Realize that data is not entirely accurate. I suspect that nearly 50% of the USA population hasn't even adopted to HDTV. What I had to do with my parents is buy them an LG 1080p HDTV, but they still have 3 older (NTSC) sets in their home.


I seen your posts on China's Hisense. If you know anything about China, then they don't know the word "quality control". So, those new TV sets won't last that long. Hisense is too new to develop a new 4k TV, that is compatible in quality with the Japanese. My workplace had the Hisense LCD monitors at work, and they lasted 1 year. My parents USA made 25" Zenith lasted 32 years. Typically, I base all my purchases on quality control.

Flooding the marketplace with cheaply designed products only does one thing, it runs the good quality companies out of business.

Nitro
post #2558 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

Do you know how to read at all? The article says 300 units, not 300%. 300 sets is rather sad for a new technology.

4 m ago there were o sets, now 300. Do your math to find what was the sales growth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

I seen your posts on China's Hisense. If you know anything about China, then they don't know the word "quality control". So, those new TV sets won't last that long. Hisense is too new to develop a new 4k TV, that is compatible in quality with the Japanese.

Irony is you mention Japanese as a symbol of QC. To find what the irony is go to history halfcentury ago and read there about bad quality of Japanese products. Same is happening with Chinese but much faster. Forget what was couple of ys ago, it is different now. BTW, Chinese are making millions of panels and electronics for many Tier-1 manufs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Yup, Most of the broadcast HD I have is of quite disappointing quality, which is one reason I buy Blu-Rays. (I'm movie-oriented).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

^^and that is why i stopped watching HD satellite movies, instaed i buy blu-ray movies and series. Still watching DiscoveryHD, HistoryHD and Nat GeoHD though smile.gif

So hopefully you understand the HEVC, H.265 or whatever new compression standard will not change a bit in this respect. The problem is in bandwidth at disposal and this is a scarce resource.
Besides, mass public wants more 'channels' than better PQ. Hence, operators are forced to squeeze the bit budget as much as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The Japanese government is set to launch the world's first 4K TV broadcast in July 2014, roughly two year ahead of schedule, to help stir demand for ultra high-definition televisions. Also Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications plans to launch the test 8K broadcast in 2016 two years ahead of schedule.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/27/us-japan-hdtv-idUSBRE90Q02520130127?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtechnologyNews+%28Reuters+Technology+News%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

It looks 4K will be technology with shortest lifetime ever biggrin.gif.
Edited by irkuck - 1/28/13 at 7:44am
post #2559 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

4 m ago there were o sets, now 300. Do your math to find what was the sales growth.
.

confused.gif What math are you talking about? 300 / 0 is not 300%.
post #2560 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebernazz View Post

confused.gif What math are you talking about? 300 / 0 is not 300%.

Sales growth is going to infinity... and beyond! -- Buzz Lightyear told me.
post #2561 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

It looks 4K will be technology with shortest lifetime ever biggrin.gif.
Fine by me if 4K ends up being the "1366x768" to 8K's "1080p".
post #2562 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

4 m ago there were o sets, now 300. Do your math to find what was the sales growth.

You need to go college at least. That is NOT! the sales growth. Here is the estimate is only 4,000 units. http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/4k-tv-adoption-be-slow-says-ihs-isuppli

"According to the report, worldwide shipments of 4K LCD-TVs will grow from 4000 this year to 2.1 million units in 2017. Despite the large increase over the years, 4K will account for only 0.8 percent of the global LCD-TV shipments by 2017. This new generation of ultra-high-definition televisions is known as 4K because it offers four times the pixels of high definition, 3840 by 2160 pixels vs. 1920 by 1080 pixels"
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Irony is you mention Japanese as a symbol of QC. To find what the irony is go to history halfcentury ago and read there about bad quality of Japanese products. Same is happening with Chinese but much faster. Forget what was couple of ys ago, it is different now. BTW, Chinese are making millions of panels and electronics for many Tier-1 manufs..

Wrong again! You need to read about Dr. W. Edward Deming, an American that helped Japan improve their quality control in 1950. Yes, I seen what China has done to several other industries. Those industries have now have moved back to the USA, because the China didn't apply quality control methods. Several of them were close to filing bankruptcy, but their customers were complaining about the Quality Control of their products. Apple is the only American company that has been able to survive, but the others almost failed. I personally don't buy from China, but feel free to spend your money and replace it yearly. You end up paying more for it.
post #2563 of 3670
If 4K isn't selling much until 2017 and OLED isn't getting here very fast either and 2K LCD improvement is at a standstill--

Isn't it about time for Panasonic to use the patents it bought from Pioneer?
post #2564 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

If 4K isn't selling much until 2017 and OLED isn't getting here very fast either and 2K LCD improvement is at a standstill--

Isn't it about time for Panasonic to use the patents it bought from Pioneer?

Plasma is headed down below 3% of the total TV market this year... and only going in one direction from there....
post #2565 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Plasma is headed down below 3% of the total TV market this year... and only going in one direction from there....

You've now put Art in to an unrecoverable state of depression. wink.gif
post #2566 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Sales growth is going to infinity... and beyond! -- Buzz Lightyear told me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebernazz View Post

confused.gif What math are you talking about? 300 / 0 is not 300%.

Reason is not a bad thing even when using math: if, as in your division, 1 piece was sold you would say growth was 300%.
But there was just one less sold than 1 and you say growth is infinite. This is not real, what I say that growth was 300% is
much better approximation of reality biggrin.gif
post #2567 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Reason is not a bad thing even when using math: if, as in your division, 1 piece was sold you would say growth was 300%.
But there was just one less sold than 1 and you say growth is infinite. This is not real, what I say that growth was 300% is much better approximation of reality biggrin.gif

IIRC from my "school daze", an increase from 1 unit to 300 units would be computed as a 30, 000% increase...?! cool.gif
_
post #2568 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post


Reason is not a bad thing even when using math: if, as in your division, 1 piece was sold you would say growth was 300%.
But there was just one less sold than 1 and you say growth is infinite. This is not real, what I say that growth was 300% is
much better approximation of reality biggrin.gif
If there was 1 piece sold before and it increased by 300%, it would now be 4.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+%2B+%28300%25+of+1%29

300% of 1 is 3. If it was 1 and it increased by 300% of 1 (which is 3), it would be 4.

--
If it was 1 unit sold, and there have now been 300 units sold, the total sold has increased by 29900%.
1+(29900% of 1)=300
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%2B%2829900%25+of+1%29
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 1/29/13 at 7:42pm
post #2569 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross 

You've now put Art in to an unrecoverable state of depression. wink.gif

Arts whole behaviour lately is based upon awareness that Plasma is on the way out. He also seems to believe that OLED isn't gonna make it and that edge lit LED wil be the only option left in a few years from now.
post #2570 of 3670
2013 to be Breakout Year for 4K×2K TV; Market Forecast to Reach 7M in 2016


Displaysearch research article is here.

SANTA CLARA, CALIF., January 29, 2013—More than half a million 4K×2K TVs are forecast to ship worldwide this year, growing to more than 7 million by 2016, according to the latest Quarterly TV Design and Features Report from NPD DisplaySearch. The 4K×2K trend was first seen at IFA 2012 and continued at the 2013 International CES, as TV manufacturers search for the next technology transition to attract consumers to upgrade their current TVs.

The display industry is racing to launch more 4K×2K screen sizes and to mobilize production in larger volumes, with even OLED 4Kx2K sets being demonstrated. Sony, LG, Samsung, and Sharp are all moving forward with this technology, along with other Japanese brands, the six leading Chinese brands, and value-oriented brands such as Vizio and Funai. In addition to vertical integration by the major players, merchant panel suppliers such as AUO and Innolux are working with several manufacturers on 4K×2K. Initial efforts in test broadcasting and standardization are also underway.



Lots more info in the article.
post #2571 of 3670
I just want to buy the LAST BEST plasma because nothing I've seen so far tells me that LCD will be better--at least for next three or four years.

And no AV Industry sales force sales pushers--I don't think that the ZT60 will be the last best plasma sold by Panasonic--sorry if that doesn't push the sales of the current LCD or plasma offerings or you dreamers who think that 4K quality LCD or OLED will get here fast--they won't.

Really to tell the truth 4K LCD and OLED will only really get here fast when plasma is completely gone and the big dogs that run Panasonic realize that all they can buy then will be technologies that suck!

That's when OLED and 4K LCD will be improved! Chinese labor and Japanese capital.

The Japanese will farm out TV production the way they and the Germans have farmed out automobile production.

That will only last a few years--eventually China will rule everything.

Face it South Korea and Samsung--your labor won't be cheap enough to win in the long run.

One day Chinese LCD will fill up Wal-mart's electronics section.
post #2572 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

2013 to be Breakout Year for 4K×2K TV; Market Forecast to Reach 7M in 2016


Displaysearch research article is here.

SANTA CLARA, CALIF., January 29, 2013—More than half a million 4K×2K TVs are forecast to ship worldwide this year, growing to more than 7 million by 2016, according to the latest Quarterly TV Design and Features Report from NPD DisplaySearch. The 4K×2K trend was first seen at IFA 2012 and continued at the 2013 International CES, as TV manufacturers search for the next technology transition to attract consumers to upgrade their current TVs.

The display industry is racing to launch more 4K×2K screen sizes and to mobilize production in larger volumes, with even OLED 4Kx2K sets being demonstrated. Sony, LG, Samsung, and Sharp are all moving forward with this technology, along with other Japanese brands, the six leading Chinese brands, and value-oriented brands such as Vizio and Funai. In addition to vertical integration by the major players, merchant panel suppliers such as AUO and Innolux are working with several manufacturers on 4K×2K. Initial efforts in test broadcasting and standardization are also underway.



Lots more info in the article.

No one is going to buy these sets, because of no content. The post above is called SWAG....
post #2573 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

No one is going to buy these sets, because of no content. The post above is called SWAG....


yeah there is, upconverted 2k.
post #2574 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

I just want to buy the LAST BEST plasma because nothing I've seen so far tells me that LCD will be better--at least for next three or four years.

And no AV Industry sales force sales pushers--I don't think that the ZT60 will be the last best plasma sold by Panasonic--sorry if that doesn't push the sales of the current LCD or plasma offerings or you dreamers who think that 4K quality LCD or OLED will get here fast--they won't.

Really to tell the truth 4K LCD and OLED will only really get here fast when plasma is completely gone and the big dogs that run Panasonic realize that all they can buy then will be technologies that suck!

That's when OLED and 4K LCD will be improved! Chinese labor and Japanese capital.

The Japanese will farm out TV production the way they and the Germans have farmed out automobile production.

That will only last a few years--eventually China will rule everything.

Face it South Korea and Samsung--your labor won't be cheap enough to win in the long run.

One day Chinese LCD will fill up Wal-mart's electronics section.
Unless of course, Panasonic announces they are getting out of the TV biz with this huge re-org coming up.

BTW. China's not to friendly to the country that committed atrocities to it's people in the 30's and 40's.. You might want to think a little more about that China/Japan hook up.

On the other hand, Samsung and LG are doing just fine in China.

What's more likely, is Japan INC buys parts made for the Korean's in China. And Japan INC gets even less important in the world consumer electronics.

Oh, and China itself starts putting pressure on Korean products domination.
post #2575 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Lossless is a well defined notion while HEVC is not since it hugely depends on the compression ratio. In broadcast a deep compression regime is used, just on the border of visible artefacts showing up. This is why artefacts are visible occasionally and sometimes not so occasionally in HDTV and why Blu-ray uses much higher bit rate. One may be sure that in broadcast the HEVC will be also used on its border and there will be no essential difference in this respect. Next issue is in the comparison, the 1080 content can be easily used in 4K displays with upconversion. The question then is what will be better: 4K in the HEVC deep compression mode, say 25 Mb/s, or 1080 compressed with HEVC at the same bit rate of 25 Mb/s and with upconversion?
I think that at 25 Mbps the 4K video would be better. The level of video compression isn't directly related to video quality. At a certain resolution you may get a 10% improvement in video quality with 2x the bit rate but to get an additional 10% improvement in video quality may take 10x the bit rate. That is why I am skeptical that lossless video will ever make sense in the consumer world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

"Deep color" is just marketing speak for increased bit-depths. Today, there is absolutely no point in going beyond 8-bit native video content from an image quality standpoint, because no displays on the market today could take advantage of that improved gradation. The best 10-bit LCD (and LCoS) displays are really only equivalent in quality to sending a CRT 8-bit native content. Plasma, DLP and other displays are all less than 8-bit quality.
12-bit video is used in movie theaters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

However, going above 8-bit allows for better compression efficiency, so it would certainly make sense to move to at least 10-bit if we are changing the Blu-ray requirements. The problem is that decoding 10-bit is far more demanding than decoding 8-bit content, and is therefore more expensive.
I think it would be a huge mistake if the 4K version of Blu-ray doesn't support the Main 10 profile of HEVC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Many people have discussed things like 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 native video rather than the current 4:2:0 we have today, but that's pointless.
Firstly, most displays are only processing in 4:2:2 anyway, so it would be wasteful to encode 4:4:4 on the disc.
Secondly, chroma resolution is much less important than luma resolution with video, and high quality chroma upsampling can do a very good job today.
Thirdly, rather than move to 1080p 4:4:4, you are far better off moving to 4K 4:2:0, which has the same 1920x1080 chroma resolution, but 4x the luma resolution.
How many modern TVs process in 4:2:2? I have heard that they used to do that back when the video processing chips were built around component video but now that HDMI is common do modern TVs still do that? It would seem a waste to take a RGB video signal and convert it to 4:2:2 YCbCr for no reason. Also though it may be unlikely I have a bit of hope that we might see a consumer 4:4:4 profile in the second version of HEVC.
post #2576 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

12-bit video is used in movie theaters.
That's true, but they use a completely different data format, and the projectors cost tens of thousands of dollars. 12-bit might make sense on a $30,000 3-chip DLP projector, but it doesn't make sense on consumer displays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

How many modern TVs process in 4:2:2? I have heard that they used to do that back when the video processing chips were built around component video but now that HDMI is common do modern TVs still do that? It would seem a waste to take a RGB video signal and convert it to 4:2:2 YCbCr for no reason.
Most, sadly. Some at least have a "game" or "PC" mode that retains the full 4:4:4/RGB resolution, but there are usually other compromises made with those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Also though it may be unlikely I have a bit of hope that we might see a consumer 4:4:4 profile in the second version of HEVC.
4:2:0 is fine for video encoding just now. 4:4:4 at the same bitrates would arguably look worse overall.
post #2577 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I think that at 25 Mbps the 4K video would be better. The level of video compression isn't directly related to video quality. At a certain resolution you may get a 10% improvement in video quality with 2x the bit rate but to get an additional 10% improvement in video quality may take 10x the bit rate. That is why I am skeptical that lossless video will ever make sense in the consumer world.

We are talking here about deep compression regime, like the one used in broadcast which is just bordering on visible artefacts. Such will be 4K video compressed to 25Mb/s. Effect of such compression can be roughly described as reducing effective detail/resolution closely to 2K. Thus, it is by far not certain if 2K compressed to 25 Mb/s and upconverted to 4K would not be on par or even subjectively better. There is similar aspect in the comparison of 720 and 1080 compressed to 10 Mb/s with the H.264.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

12-bit video is used in movie theaters. I think it would be a huge mistake if the 4K version of Blu-ray doesn't support the Main 10 profile of HEVC.
How many modern TVs process in 4:2:2? I have heard that they used to do that back when the video processing chips were built around component video but now that HDMI is common do modern TVs still do that? It would seem a waste to take a RGB video signal and convert it to 4:2:2 YCbCr for no reason. Also though it may be unlikely I have a bit of hope that we might see a consumer 4:4:4 profile in the second version of HEVC.

4K Blu-ray is not and will not be an economical proposition. Consumer content and money is now shifting to portable displays. If anything, one can think about the DCI 4K content sold directly to well-heeled consumers for prime dollar.
post #2578 of 3670
^Hard to say and depends on the pricing, the BDA is looking into 4k delivery options in any case.
post #2579 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

4:2:0 is fine for video encoding just now. 4:4:4 at the same bitrates would arguably look worse overall.

10/10 biggrin.gif. People forget that 4:2:0 encoding is an extremely effective compression perfectly matched to the human visual system. 4:2:2 is used in contribution quality and 4:4:4 in post, would be an overkill in distribution.

Anyway, Sharp First to Bring “Affordable” 4K Display to the USA. Wonder if much cheaper China-made 4K small TV will appear which could be used as monitor.
post #2580 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

We are talking here about deep compression regime, like the one used in broadcast which is just bordering on visible artefacts. Such will be 4K video compressed to 25Mb/s.

Effect of such compression can be roughly described as reducing effective detail/resolution closely to 2K.

Thus, it is by far not certain if 2K compressed to 25 Mb/s and upconverted to 4K would not be on par or even subjectively better. There is similar aspect in the comparison of 720 and 1080 compressed to 10 Mb/s with the H.264.
You continue to post such claims without any reference to back you up whatsoever. Please link to some tests that back-up your claims.
Both HEVC and the similar .Red codecs claims with real world demonstrations that your claim is unsubstantiated.
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