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4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 90

post #2671 of 3670
So if you can't broadcast 4K then how much are the satellite companies going to compress it and then charge for it?
post #2672 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

So if you can't broadcast 4K then how much are the satellite companies going to compress it and then charge for it?

Techology is not here yet for 4k via satellite, so compression is unknown at this time and so is cost.
post #2673 of 3670
There are no problems with transmitting 4K over terrestrial or satellite systems today.
The only part that is lacking is commercial receivers.
This year Broadcom (among others) will distribute HEVC processor chips (SoC) in 2013 for companies to design commercial equipment and start mass-production of this in 2014.

From then on both UHD TVs and Satellite receivers can receive UHD signals.

To sum up from links posted in this thread numerous times alrady for those that seems to not be abel to keep informed and conceptualise what have happened and what is happening in the UHD "realm":

Eutelsat started regular UHD satellite transmissions January 8, 2013.

"Eutelsat’s new channel is designed to benefit all actors in the broadcasting chain who want to acquire expertise in 4K, including production companies, pay-TV operators, rights owners and TV set manufacturers.

The new channel will operate in progressive mode at 50 frames per second.

It will be encoded in MPEG-4 and transmitted at 40 Mbit/s in four Quad HD streams.

Eutelsat is partnering with ATEME, a video compression solution provider to the broadcast industry, for the transmissions that will be uplinked to the EUTELSAT 10A satellite from its teleport in Rambouillet, near Paris."


The first 8K satellite test transmission was done in 2008, and Eutelsat won an award for this.

"At the 2008 IBC in Amsterdam, Eutelsat, a partner of the “Broadcast Technology Futures Group”, received the “IBC 2008 Special Award” for the first worldwide Super Hi-Vision satellite 8K transmission."

HEVC implementation will also make it possible to transmit more content par transponder than what is done today.
Several companies are already using early HEVC versions on existing equipment for testing while they wait for the "finished" HEVC version.

"With the new HEVC and probably the DVB-S3 standards, we should be able to transmit around 5 UHD 4K channels at 50 fps per 36MHz transponder, with a bit rate per channel a little higher than one current MPEG4 HDTV channel, but with a double frame rate (50 fps instead of 25) for a better viewing experience."

All this have been posted in this thread numerous times already. Please keep updated to prevent this thread to go in endless circles.

AS for the people here that seem to not understand that HEVC compression bitrates does not equal the effect of H.264 compression bitrates when it comes to image quality effects. Try rather to understand the difference than argue on the basis that it is equal.

"HEVC introduces a number of additional tools to exploit spatial and temporal redundancy, including enhanced motion compensated filtering, multiple coding block sizes, increased coding unit block sizes (from 8×8 to 64×64),

hierarchical block coding, advanced motion vector prediction,

improved context adaptive binary arithmetic coding (CABAC) processing,

expanded loop filters (de-blocking, sample adaptive offset, and adaptive loop filter),

and optimised intra-frame prediction.


One feature that may specifically benefit satellite operators is HEVC’s ability to more efficiently code larger block sizes, especially in regions where there is little change in the picture content.
By coding larger images, HEVC will allow operators to more easily support future 4K and 8K UHDTV services, which offer television viewers a much higher resolution picture quality.

Additionally, the HEVC standard optimises intra-frame prediction by combining spatial closed- and open-loop predictions to exploit redundancy within the current frame.
By exploiting redundancy not only between neighbouring blocks but also within a coding block itself, the new tool — called Combined Intra-Predication — offers more prediction directions than AVC, thereby increasing the efficiencies of video compression.

HEVC also resolves contouring artefacts that are visible in H.264/MPEG-4 AVC when coding flat or smooth image backgrounds.

Via an internal increase in precision (greater bit depth), HEVC can more accurately calculate the coding necessary for complex images, eliminating banding issues.

Future HEVC developments may include support for multi-view video coding or stereo 3D video combined with scalable video coding (SVC), allowing a video stream, sequence, or image to be represented in multiple ways and formats so that satellite operators can more efficiently prepare content in different resolutions, frame or bit rates, for viewing on any device, including TVs, smartphones, and tablets."


The only reason 8K is not a bigger part of the tests of this at the moment is that there are lack of original 8K material, 8K cameras and 8K displays.
HEVC will change that in the coming years.

This is a Audio Visual Sciences Forum which is mostly dedicated to discussion of Technological advancements (particularly this thread). For those that think that past technology and knowledge are more important to hold on to; The forum has a section for CRT TV standard definition TV discussions. cool.gif
post #2674 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

There are no problems with transmitting 4K over terrestrial or satellite systems today.
The only part that is lacking is commercial receivers.
This year Broadcom (among others) will distribute HEVC processor chips (SoC) in 2013 for companies to design commercial equipment and start mass-production of this in 2014.

From then on both UHD TVs and Satellite receivers can receive UHD signals.

I said USA, not Europe. USA is fighting a war, which the Europeans were afraid to fight.
post #2675 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

This is a Audio Visual Sciences Forum which is mostly dedicated to discussion of Technological advancements (particularly this thread). For those that think that past technology and knowledge are more important to hold on to; The forum has a section for CRT TV standard definition TV discussions. cool.gif

You appear to be confusing the questions that some of us have for the need for 8K with, as you say, '...those that think past technology and knowledge are more important to hold on to'. There is a difference and it's far from subtle. Welcoming technological improvements that actually benefit the end user is far different than those that accept, at whatever cost, 'improvements' that are not needed, let alone not even discernible.

Also, for a guy that professes to be so up on technology, you should reconsider using a font color that's very difficult to read. wink.gif
post #2676 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You appear to be confusing the questions that some of us have for the need for 8K with, as you say, '...those that think past technology and knowledge are more important to hold on to'. There is a difference and it's far from subtle. Welcoming technological improvements that actually benefit the end user is far different than those that accept, at whatever cost, 'improvements' that are not needed, let alone not even discernible.
If you had any real experience with Image production and Image post production you would have automatically understood how 8K and more would benefit end users.
Repeatedly denying the benefit of 8K (which many here do) which you haven't even seen, than rather trying to understand why it will be a benefit, becomes rather tedious.

There are a large variety of Opinions in this thread, and a large gap in knowledge. I wasn't pointing out single persons in particular. It just get boring with all the repetitive arguments from people that don't understand the relationship between resolution and and image quality on the one hand, and the people that think all the old ways of doing things will continue without caring to update themselves.
Quote:
Also, for a guy that professes to be so up on technology, you should reconsider using a font color that's very difficult to read. wink.gif
Depends on the Forum skin that you are using.
Don't tell me most people are using white background and not the AVS Black skin, eek.gif which is both easer on the eyes and displays all text colors and images in superior way? To bad AVS dropped the blue Retro skin, it was quite nice.
Try it!

This is how part of my previous post look like for me;

The forum look like this;

Edited by coolscan - 2/6/13 at 10:53am
post #2677 of 3670
I actually DO have experience in image production & editing. But regardless, you are apparently the only person here that truly 'knows' what's best for us all. You are quite wrong my friend. I have seen 4K and know very well where the benefits begin and the benefits end. If you can't understand that the gap going from 4K to 8K displays is even narrower than the progression from 2K to 4K, there's not much I can say. Are we to believe our eyes or your considerable experience in post production?

There are many professionals in the video industry that have also agreed there is little need for 8K. Many of these same professionals feel that even 4K is too restricted in terms of a sizable % of the population deriving any benefits.

But as long as you are the one in the know, I suspect we should proceed full steam ahead to 8K. rolleyes.gif

We obviously have very different opinions on this and neither one of us is going to change the others mind. So I'll refrain from further responding to your posts (which if you read them objectively, you might actually find somewhat demeaning) and leave it to others.

As for the forum skin being used and the font color displayed, suffice is to say that for those using the white skin (no, I have no idea how many AVSr.s are using the white skin...do you?), there are better colors to use.
post #2678 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

[...]
arguments from people that don't understand the relationship between resolution and and image quality
[...]
AVS Black skin, eek.gif which is both easer on the eyes


Someone who understands image quality might want to connect these two thoughts. Lit up text on a black background being easier on the eyes. LOL!
post #2679 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Someone who understands image quality might want to connect these two thoughts. Lit up text on a black background being easier on the eyes. LOL!

Yeah, I didn't even want to go there. biggrin.gif
post #2680 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Someone who understands image quality might want to connect these two thoughts. Lit up text on a black background being easier on the eyes. LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Yeah, I didn't even want to go there. biggrin.gif
Sorry guys, but you are just revealing your ignorance.
My confidence in your understanding of image quality just took another nose dive.

But then I guess you are running your PC screens at max illumination or factory default like all your other display equipment?

Instead of being stupidly arrogant, just try to run AVS Black for some days. Lower the illumination of your screen until it is pleasant for you, and keep that illumination for other web pages too, at least if you sit often on the web in a darkened room.

Of my posts lately in this forum section, Funny that this got you to question my Technological knowledge. confused.gif
I guess it was because you thought it would be easy. Such a mistake tongue.gif
post #2681 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post


Sorry guys, but you are just revealing your ignorance.
My confidence in your understanding of image quality just took another nose dive.

But then I guess you are running your PC screens at max illumination or factory default like all your other display equipment?

Instead of being stupidly arrogant

Oh as "stupidly arrogant" perhaps as launching a broadside at non-specific conversation paricipants for not having your wisdom? Or as "stupidly arrogant" perhaps as assuming that we're "running our PC's at max illumination or factory default like all our other display equipment"?
post #2682 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I
But as long as you are the one in the know, I suspect we should proceed full steam ahead to 8K. rolleyes.gif

Ken is in New York, so he could have Verizon Fios. All fiber network, so he could in theory have access to 4k content. Majority of the USA won't have access to all fiber network for 4k, so they have rely on satellite or cable. http://newscenter.verizon.com/residential/news-articles/2013-01-fios-is-ready-hdtv-4k-tv-uhd-ultra-hd/
I am on Docsis 3.0, but it will be about 2015 before we get 4K. Although, you content will be limited, so waiting is not bad idea.
post #2683 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post


Sorry guys, but you are just revealing your ignorance.
My confidence in your understanding of image quality just took another nose dive.

I have had every one of my displays ISF'd, so please stop with your incessant drivel.

When you learn to discuss things without insulting AVS members and without using the condescending attitude that is evident in most of your posts, let us know. Until then, welcome to my ignore list.
post #2684 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro67 View Post

Ken is in New York, so he could have Verizon Fios. All fiber network, so he could in theory have access to 4k content. Majority of the USA won't have access to all fiber network for 4k, so they have rely on satellite or cable. http://newscenter.verizon.com/residential/news-articles/2013-01-fios-is-ready-hdtv-4k-tv-uhd-ultra-hd/
I am on Docsis 3.0, but it will be about 2015 before we get 4K. Although, you content will be limited, so waiting is not bad idea.

You're right Nitro, I do have FIOS. Good find on that blurb even though Verizon was very non-specific about 4K timing. Unfortunately, even FIOS is strapped for space today. Once they discontinue SD, that will free up more bandwidth.

My dilemma continues for my next display, 4K, 2K, 4K, 2K.............. confused.gif
post #2685 of 3670
post #2686 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Someone who understands image quality might want to connect these two thoughts. Lit up text on a black background being easier on the eyes. LOL!
It is generally accepted that white-on-black is easier to read than black-on-white with emissive displays, rather than reflective displays where black-on-white is easier to read.
post #2687 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It is generally accepted that white-on-black is easier to read than black-on-white with emissive displays, rather than reflective displays where black-on-white is easier to read.

Generally accepted? As a software engineer, my professional life is spent looking at text endlessly. My eyes greatly reduced in eye strain when I switched to black on light background colors. Similar to the light blue background that my AVS forum skin seems to have defaulted to, but there were variants, mostly a parchment paper look. But all of them produced less eye strain, particularly when I lowered the phosphor temp. But even black on stark white, like this composition window is better than the reverse, because I used that for years as well. That is no psychosomatic effect. This was particularly pronounced back When Things Were Rotten® when I was staring at a CRT, despite the fact that at first take, you'd have more light blasting into my eyes. But the absence of light produced a pixel (and text) that was always easier to focus on somehow for long periods. All of us who are old enough started with white on black, because that's all that was available (ADM terminals and the like). It was the first thing I could switch when I could.
post #2688 of 3670
I'm bored with the threads I normal follow, so went looking for somewhere else to lurk. Found this and the other few threads here ... wonderful reading, the regulars should be applauded for keeping this civil while extracting some good info (as far as I know.)

But I'm perplexed. It seems so simple to me, but I fear I'm missing something, since it doesn't seem simple to others.

Zo, I sit at the minimum distance for a 2K panel (+ a few inches for dog transfer function.) I'm confident in the math for this because I only have to lean forward a few inches to see the screen structure. Interestingly to me, the math for the maximum viewing angle (I'm calling that 40 deg.) gives the same result as minimum resolution distance for 2K. I don't know if this is an amazing coincidence or was intended. It is of critical importance though, for me at least, because this is a very comfortable viewing distance, as much closer starts to get weird as the angle increases.

With that background, it's a simple fact that the largest 2K panel my room will accept is in the 80" class, and the largest 4K I could squeeze in is in the 100" class. For the ~100 to work I'd need to be at about 2.25PH, but I've tested that angle and it's acceptable.

So, a no brainer - if someone comes out with a 100" 4K where the overall PQ satisfaction is at least as high as my current display, and I can afford it, I'm in.
post #2689 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

I'm bored with the threads I normal follow, so went looking for somewhere else to lurk. Found this and the other few threads here ... wonderful reading, the regulars should be applauded for keeping this civil while extracting some good info (as far as I know.)

But I'm perplexed. It seems so simple to me, but I fear I'm missing something, since it doesn't seem simple to others.

Zo, I sit at the minimum distance for a 2K panel (+ a few inches for dog transfer function.) I'm confident in the math for this because I only have to lean forward a few inches to see the screen structure. Interestingly to me, the math for the maximum viewing angle (I'm calling that 40 deg.) gives the same result as minimum resolution distance for 2K. I don't know if this is an amazing coincidence or was intended. It is of critical importance though, for me at least, because this is a very comfortable viewing distance, as much closer starts to get weird as the angle increases.

With that background, it's a simple fact that the largest 2K panel my room will accept is in the 80" class, and the largest 4K I could squeeze in is in the 100" class. For the ~100 to work I'd need to be at about 2.25PH, but I've tested that angle and it's acceptable.

So, a no brainer - if someone comes out with a 100" 4K where the overall PQ satisfaction is at least as high as my current display, and I can afford it, I'm in.

It's interesting how one's desire for a larger pic grows with time.    I started with a 60" rptv, sitting ~ 10 ft away.   I now sit ~ 2.0 PH's from a 12 ft wide screen--but thankfully, I think I've finally reach my limit!

post #2690 of 3670
Quote:

Actually, the last paragraph was announced about 4 weeks ago in this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1309492/4k-by-2k-or-quad-hd-lots-of-rumors-thoughts/2340

Ghostbusters is probably the only one that would interest me, but it was shot in 35mm. The special effects was done in 65mm. It will be interesting to see who else is going to offer this service as well.
post #2691 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Generally accepted? As a software engineer, my professional life is spent looking at text endlessly. My eyes greatly reduced in eye strain when I switched to black on light background colors. Similar to the light blue background that my AVS forum skin seems to have defaulted to, but there were variants, mostly a parchment paper look. But all of them produced less eye strain, particularly when I lowered the phosphor temp. But even black on stark white, like this composition window is better than the reverse, because I used that for years as well. That is no psychosomatic effect. This was particularly pronounced back When Things Were Rotten® when I was staring at a CRT, despite the fact that at first take, you'd have more light blasting into my eyes. But the absence of light produced a pixel (and text) that was always easier to focus on somehow for long periods. All of us who are old enough started with white on black, because that's all that was available (ADM terminals and the like). It was the first thing I could switch when I could.
Over-Illumination is a serious problem in many offices, whether it’s natural or artificial light as the source. In an overly-illuminated office, or even just a bright one, black on white can certainly be easier to read.

But in a more comfortably lit environment, I find that text on black is easier to read. Not stark white-on-black, but light gray on dark gray for example, like the "black" theme here.

Contrast on paper or e-ink devices is less than 20:1. Contrast of black text on a white LCD is going to be at least 10-20x that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

It's interesting how one's desire for a larger pic grows with time. I started with a 60" rptv, sitting ~ 10 ft away. I now sit ~ 2.0 PH's from a 12 ft wide screen--but thankfully, I think I've finally reach my limit!
Maybe we're all just becoming myopic from looking at screens all day now.
post #2692 of 3670
Note guys that coming Feb. 20 might be a milestone in the 4K developoment. New Sony Playstation will unveiled then and it is likely it provides full support for 4K video. That would mean Sony will be able to launch complete 4K distribution chain from content to display, based on download for movies and games and maybe special Blu-ray disks.
post #2693 of 3670
Black-background text is excruciating to read on a computer, ok? If you like it, fine, enjoy it. Most of us hate it because it's excruciating to read. We've been there, done it, hated it and moved on.

As for 4K, DirecTV and Fios are both planning on the death of SD feeds to make room for 4K. I presume others are too, but I'm certain about both of those.
post #2694 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck 
Note guys that coming Feb. 20 might be a milestone in the 4K developoment. New Sony Playstation will unveiled then and it is likely it provides full support for 4K video. That would mean Sony will be able to launch complete 4K distribution chain from content to display, based on download for movies and games and maybe special Blu-ray disks.

''If the rumours are true and the Sony PS4 comes with 4K video output, it's going to need something a lot bigger than current blu-ray discs, or else adopt some kind of hi-tech HD to 4K upscaling converter. Neither of these solutions would be cheap however, and these costs would almost certainly be passed onto the consumer.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-ultra-hd-remastering-201302042641.htm


The PS4 will cost $399 which is kind of cheap for a 4K PS4 introduction, so it seems unlikely that the PS4 supports 4K video. The PS5 probably will smile.gif
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-02-07-playstation-4-to-be-priced-at-USD399
post #2695 of 3670
It supports 4K.
post #2696 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It supports 4K.

I haven't seen that confirmed yet. Has it been?
post #2697 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
It supports 4K.
PS3 at introduction was 700 euro. Sony lost 200 euro on every PS3 sold. And now Sony will launch PS4 - including a 4K blu-ray player - at 400/500 euro? Really?
post #2698 of 3670
I guess Sony has been taking advice from politicians. Spend first, ask questions later.
post #2699 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

PS3 at introduction was 700 euro. Sony lost 200 euro on every PS3 sold. And now Sony will launch PS4 - including a 4K blu-ray player - at 400/500 euro? Really?

I don't think anyone said it would include a 4K BD player, especially when no standards yet exist.
post #2700 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

''If the rumours are true and the Sony PS4 comes with 4K video output, it's going to need something a lot bigger than current blu-ray discs,

....is this really true? I thought there were several members here who debunked that thoroughly months ago.
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