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4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 102

post #3031 of 3670
FWIW, some of you will shout "nuthin" smile.gif, Candre23 posted this link to a very positive Gizmodo review of the $1300 Seiki 50 Inch 4K TV else-forum. Thanks Candre!

I really like their attitude here.
post #3032 of 3670
Am I the only person who wants this on their desk as a computer monitor?
post #3033 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Am I the only person who wants this on their desk as a computer monitor?
I bet there's a lot of people that would pick one up if they support 60Hz inputs from a PC.

But for my needs, a computer monitor also has to be equivalent to a high end television in performance for it to be useful. It's no use for photo editing if the viewing angles, uniformity, contrast ratio and color reproduction aren't great. That's why I'm holding out for 4K OLED for my next display purchase, rather than an edge-lit LCD. I doubt there will be another LCD released that is as good as my Sony HX900 now, so waiting for OLED is the only option.
post #3034 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I bet there's a lot of people that would pick one up if they support 60Hz inputs from a PC.

Indeed, without 60Hz this most likely would be nerve-flickering biggrin.gif as computer monitor. I wonder too if 50" is not too big as computer monitor. Of course anything can be a computer monitor if defined as providing enough pixels to be watchable from 1PH. But with the increased viewing distance it becomes less private experience. There was information about 39" 4K TV panels being produced now, this size might be ideal and ultimate as monitor.
post #3035 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Am I the only person who wants this on their desk as a computer monitor?

No. 40-42 inch with 60 hz capability would be ideal for me. The 37" 1080p I currently use was the largest I could get for my seating distance.
post #3036 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Am I the only person who wants this on their desk as a computer monitor?

I'm interested for this exact reason. As everybody has been saying, 4k is overkill unless the display is huge or you're sitting very close, so a desktop is one of the few places a 4k display of this size makes sense. The 30Hz limit is unfortunate, but I'd need to see it first hand to know if it's really a dealbreaker.
post #3037 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by candre23 View Post

I'm interested for this exact reason. As everybody has been saying, 4k is overkill unless the display is huge or you're sitting very close, so a desktop is one of the few places a 4k display of this size makes sense. The 30Hz limit is unfortunate, but I'd need to see it first hand to know if it's really a dealbreaker.

Consult this thread. Somebody who installed this monitor reports it works with gaming applications at 30Hz but 'occasional tearing'. 60 Hz could be supported with the AMD cards using Multi Stream Transport but not all applications run smoothly. This shows that in general the 4K tech is immature yet and the 4K monitor does not offer rock-solid performance one should expect from it. This monitor is for static apps.
post #3038 of 3670
Thanks for that link. Most importantly for me, he says it works great at 30Hz for desktop stuff, it's just not ideal for games. That's fine, since I don't do a ton of gaming anyway. What I'm really looking for is a ton of screen real estate for work, and this looks like it will fit the bill for that.
post #3039 of 3670
While I can't use 30Hz on my current display, I know what playing games is like at 30fps, and I know what the desktop is like at 24Hz. It's an absolutely horrible experience. Without the ability to run at 60Hz, I wouldn't consider one.
As soon as displays that have support for 60Hz are released, you will regret having purchased a 30Hz-only monitor.
post #3040 of 3670
As an interconnect standard that can do 4k @ 60Hz is still 1-2 years away, and who knows how long it will take manufacturers to actually start implementing that once its available, nobody has much of a choice right now.
post #3041 of 3670
Don't get lost in the TVs gaming ability, there are other uses for this as a PC monitor.
More and more reduser movie makers gets their sets now.
Follow the reports, solutions and discussions; http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?98027-1299-Seiki-UHDTV-50-quot-SE50UY04-Bought-it-today/page11
post #3042 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by candre23 View Post

As an interconnect standard that can do 4k @ 60Hz is still 1-2 years away, and who knows how long it will take manufacturers to actually start implementing that once its available, nobody has much of a choice right now.

This is not the case for computer monitors. DisplayPort 1.2 supports 4K@60Hz and it is natural candidate for 4K computer interconnect as even now I am running my 2560x1440 monitor via DP directly from a motherboard with Ivy Bridge processor without any separate graphics adapter. The 4K problem seems to be chip technology for DisplayPort transmitters and receivers plus possibly some issues with display electronics. This is why Sharp monitor is logically tiled, composed of two side-by-side logical monitors.

Having very expensive 4K monitor not supporting all features every decent monitor should have sounds like returning to ancient VGA times and trying to display video. I wonder in fact if Sharp monitor is able to run 4K video without problems. Similar question is if any of the 4K TVs appearing this year will have support for 4K@60Hz computer input.
post #3043 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

I wonder in fact if Sharp monitor is able to run 4K video without problems.

According to this guy, no. Granted the problem may well be with nvidia's imperfect pseudo-multi-monitor scheme, but he says it's bad enough that he prefers to play games at 30Hz (bad though that may be) over a single cable rather than deal with the screen tearing caused by using multiple cables.

Interestingly, reading through the thread he says that 30Hz is not as bad as 30fps. Yes, you're only getting 30 frames per second, but internally the game is processing faster than that, so you don't get the input lag that is the most noticeable drawback of low frame rates. He also says it works great for video and non-gaming purposes. Also bear in mind that this is a guy with over $10k worth of gaming PC, so he's going to be incredibly picky. If he says it works well enough at 30Hz for productivity purposes, that's high praise.
post #3044 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by candre23 View Post

Interestingly, reading through the thread he says that 30Hz is not as bad as 30fps. Yes, you're only getting 30 frames per second, but internally the game is processing faster than that, so you don't get the input lag that is the most noticeable drawback of low frame rates.
This is only true if he is either running with v-sync disabled (which means screen tearing) or if he is using Lucid's Virtual V-Sync. (which I don't think is possible at 4K)
The most noticeable drawback of low framerates is that motion looks absolutely horrendous, input lag is a secondary concern at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by candre23 View Post

He also says it works great for video and non-gaming purposes.
Depends how sensitive you are to framerates I suppose. I can't stand anything less than 60Hz for anything other than video. (and with video I need to have MotionFlow enabled, because the judder is so bad)
Quote:
Originally Posted by candre23 View Post

Also bear in mind that this is a guy with over $10k worth of gaming PC, so he's going to be incredibly picky.
Not when he is running a crossfire setup. Crossfire is particularly bad for stuttering ("microstutter") so if he is happy with that, it is no wonder he is happy with the performance at 30Hz.
post #3045 of 3670
So with respect to monitor use, I agree with all of you that 30Hz is a dealbreaker. I also agree that 50" might be a bit too big -- it wouldn't fit on my desk as configured. So right now, it's just a dream. But as I contemplated getting a 27" iMac, these developments are giving me a bit of pause. Maybe making the monitor investment right now isn't the right decision given that we might have 4K screens in the 30s in the not-too-distant future....
post #3046 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So with respect to monitor use, I agree with all of you that 30Hz is a dealbreaker. I also agree that 50" might be a bit too big -- it wouldn't fit on my desk as configured. So right now, it's just a dream. But as I contemplated getting a 27" iMac, these developments are giving me a bit of pause. Maybe making the monitor investment right now isn't the right decision given that we might have 4K screens in the 30s in the not-too-distant future....
While I can see the aesthetic appeal of an iMac, I've never really considered owning one. They always seem like such a bad deal to me. You are essentially buying a high-end laptop, which means that you have a fixed spec computer, but unlike a laptop, you're tethered to a desk. You have a mid-range display, but you're stuck using it with that one computer. I know Apple finally allow inputs via DisplayPort now, but the computer has to be running for that to work, it's very temperamental, and I don't believe it supports scaling if you were to try and send it a 1920x1080 signal for example.

If something goes wrong with either the display or the computer, you can't use either of them, and if you're out of warranty, it means throwing the whole thing out and buying a new system, even if one of the two are perfectly functional.
If you were to buy a 27" monitor and a PC tower, if something goes wrong with the display, then you can replace it, or if something goes wrong with the tower, it's very likely that you can replace a single component to fix it rather than the whole computer itself. With the iMac design essentially being a laptop inside, there are no upgrade or repair options beyond taking the entire machine into Apple and waiting a couple of weeks for it to be serviced - if you are inside your warranty. (outside of warranty, most repairs from Apple are ridiculously expensive)

While 4K monitors aren't a reality today, in a year or two, I suspect there will be a "retina" iMac, and your only upgrade path would be to get rid of your old system and replace it.

It's too bad Apple's only options for a desktop machine outside of the iMac are the Mac Mini - which is a nice bit of kit, but not as quick as an iMac, and the Mac Pro - which is very expensive due to using server-grade hardware, and it's years out of date at that.
It would be nice if they had offered a machine that used regular desktop hardware rather than your only choice be between notebook hardware or server hardware.
post #3047 of 3670
So that's the issue: you can't get strong performance out of most Mac laptops (certainly not the Air, which I carry). The iMac is a weird deal, yes, but it's actually not awfully priced when you compare it to branded 2560 x 1440 monitors. I recognized you can now get unbranded ones that are much cheaper, which is why I've delayed this purchase.

Incidentally -- and sorry for being off topic -- if you live close to an Apple store, repairs are pretty quick (usually days) and there are third-party repair options here that are often cheaper if something goes awry that is fixable. As for using it as monitor, it works pretty well these days; I can't speak to the past. It's somewhat power inefficient to get running, but the underlying Mac will go to sleep after a bit. I'm not thrilled about the obsolescence part of the equation, but I do expect the computer to be useful for 4-5 years and by then, I'd expect a laptop to be on the market that will be able to serve as my only machine, Of course, I believed that laptop would exist by now, so maybe that's wishful thinking....
post #3048 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post


to sum it up. CODEC, compression/ decompression or encoding/decoding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codec



So how many of you smartass boys owe me an apology............>?


FWIW nobody said lossless was a necessity just that compression has been an issue and now your talking about

the grand daddy of all codecs.....................

RED is an internet based delivery system and for those that think someone is going to WAIT to download to watch TV your crazy and you know it............

Be real
post #3049 of 3670
I bought an HDTV over a decade ago and guess what HD was available via SAT...........

This new tech has more hurdles to get over due to technological advancements for SAT and Cable.

Likely never happen here...............

Internet....you say no caps......really they see money and you want 4k and I am hearing 25g for a two hour movie.

You honestly think they are gonna let you use all you want after you download it of course cause streaming for the masses isn't happening either without

tremendous amounts of compression that don't even exist.

So they see you use all this data and dont add data cap or just plain raise your plan price.

When it comes to money its coming.


Be real...............



All these people agree with me so take that into account as well...................


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1309492/4k-by-2k-or-quad-hd-lots-of-rumors-thoughts/3030

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrymagid/2013/01/08/4k-tv-promising-but-not-ready-for-prime-time/

http://www.zdnet.com/4k-uhd-tv-needs-big-pipes-not-a-pipe-dream-7000010632/

http://tech2.in.com/opinions/hdtvs/theres-no-point-in-buying-a-4k-tv-this-year/774772
post #3050 of 3670
SES Astra Satellite Company together with its partners Harmonic, and Broadcom Corporation has pioneered the first Ultra HD transmission in the new HEVC standard live from an ASTRA satellite at 19.2 degrees East.
Quote:
Luxembourg, April 19, 2013 - SES (NYSE Euronext Paris and Luxembourg Stock Exchange: SESG) announced today that, together with its partners Harmonic, the worldwide leader in video delivery infrastructure, and Broadcom Corporation, a global leader and innovator in semiconductor solutions, it has pioneered the first Ultra HD transmission in the new HEVC standard live from an ASTRA satellite at 19.2 degrees East.
The HEVC standard features an up to 50 percent encoding efficiency improvement, compared to previous test broadcasts in MPEG-4 AVC (H.264).

The end-to-end demonstration which was presented at the SES Industry Days in Luxembourg used Harmonic's ProMedia Xpress and a HEVC decoder reference-design system based on Broadcom's BCM7445 device for receiving HEVC encoded Ultra-HD television transmission.
The signal was broadcast in DVB-S2 using a data rate of 20 Mbit/s.

The live demonstration for the first time broadcasts a full 3840x2160 pixel Ultra HD picture in HEVC, while previous demonstrations were either broadcast in H.264 or using 4 HD pictures in parallel. SES first live-broadcast a full 3840x2160 pixel Ultra HD picture using the MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) standard at IBC 2012.


SES Astra also has a dedicated part of their web site to its “SES Ultra HD Experience” inviting content providers and broadcasters to work with SES to support the development of the Ultra HD value chain.
Quote:
“With manufacturers launching larger and larger TV screens at increasingly affordable prices, consumers expect to receive content with the highest possible picture quality,” said Norbert Hoelzle, Senior Vice President Commercial Europe at SES. “As a global satellite operator, it is of utmost importance for SES to play a catalytic role and enable the industry to drive the deployment of the Ultra HD ecosystem.

“The challenge for broadcasters is to access content in Ultra HD. As satellite is the most suitable infrastructure to deliver high resolution pictures to large audiences, SES is well-positioned to support content providers and broadcasters in testing their Ultra HD footage and distributing their content before Ultra HD becomes a commercial reality in the next few years.”

With the “SES Ultra HD Experience” initiative, content producers and broadcasters from all over the world are invited to submit footage shot in Ultra HD via a dedicated SES web page, www.ses.com/ultrahd-experience, and are given the opportunity to broadcast and test their content via an SES satellite.
post #3051 of 3670
^ The signal was broadcast in DVB-S2 using a data rate of 20 Mbit/s.

Heh, wouldn't mind to see for comparison the 1080p broadcast @20 Mbit/s and just with the H.264, with the HEVC the 4K could get hammered biggrin.gif.
post #3052 of 3670
HDMI 2.0 spec with support for 4K video at 60Hz likely will be available by mid-year, with the first 2.0 compliant chips expected to reach volume production in 2014.
http://consumerelectronicsdaily.com/Content/HDMI-2-due-midyear-volume-chips-in-2014.aspx


While several companies have already implemented demo H.265 devices, several years will pass until this new standard may become widely accepted and used.
http://www.infoq.com/news/2013/01/H-265


Samsung and Sony to offer HDMI 2.0 upgrade for UHD TVs?
http://uk.hardware.info/news/34661/samsung-and-sony-to-offer-hdmi-20-upgrade-for-uhd-tvs


BDA has confirmed that a task force is evaluating proposals for adding new features such as 4K playback to the format.
http://www.cnet.com.au/blu-ray-set-to-make-4k-decision-later-this-year-339344088.htm
post #3053 of 3670
Compression sucks and Imacs rock!
post #3054 of 3670
The dilemma of 4K content is well illustrated on the example of Microsoft XBox One console. XBox One will support 4K output. However, 4K will run through HDMI 1.4a which limits it to 30Hz frame rate. Thus, it is unlikely the XBox One will support 4K gaming due too low frame rate. Built-in Blue Ray player should be support 4K upconversion. The only way original 4K movies could be supported is via download to the XBox One 500GB hard disc.

Overall XBox One is a step towards 4K but it is limited since it will not have real 4K support due to the missing HDMI 2.0 and next generation Blue Ray.
post #3055 of 3670
Console games are all 30fps or less, and the hardware is not nearly powerful enough to support rendering games in native 4K anyway.
post #3056 of 3670
Just proving that once again 4k will remain niche for some time.
post #3057 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Console games are all 30fps or less, and the hardware is not nearly powerful enough to support rendering games in native 4K anyway.

XBox 1 is reportedly at least 8x faster than the current XBox so the power is there for 4K@30 Hz. Microsoft thus has a chance to become the first 4K content platform though HDMI 2.0 would make it more future-proof (it will be a pity if the Xbox 1 release will miss HDMI 2.0 silicon release by a couple of months). On the other hand, high PQ 4K movies could be easily offered via download to Xbox 1 and even software upgrade for the HEVC decoder could be be provided later.
post #3058 of 3670
post #3059 of 3670

Could be time for a dedicated 4K section. With 4K Direct view, 4K Projection and 4K media player sub sections.
post #3060 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

XBox 1 is reportedly at least 8x faster than the current XBox so the power is there for 4K@30 Hz. Microsoft thus has a chance to become the first 4K content platform though HDMI 2.0 would make it more future-proof (it will be a pity if the Xbox 1 release will miss HDMI 2.0 silicon release by a couple of months). On the other hand, high PQ 4K movies could be easily offered via download to Xbox 1 and even software upgrade for the HEVC decoder could be be provided later.

It won't be all that big a deal actually. They'll simply release a console w/ the new HDMI 2.0 spec port(just like they did w/ version 1.2a to 1.3) when and only when a substantive amount of 4K content is in demand/supply a few years from now. Hell, I think the 360 started out w/ component, then VGA, then DVI, then HDMI adapters for those ports, then HDMI 1.2a, and lastly 1.3.
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