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4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 112

post #3331 of 3670
was at best buy yesterday for a phone

checked out sony's 4k on display. it appeared to be displaying some native 4k content on a loop

looked damn good


maybe if we can get to 2.0 hdmi and some non upconverted native 4k content, these
sets may be the next great thing for videophiles, especially given the disappointment with oled.
post #3332 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

was at best buy yesterday for a phone

checked out sony's 4k on display. it appeared to be displaying some native 4k content on a loop

looked damn good


maybe if we can get to 2.0 hdmi and some non upconverted native 4k content, these
sets may be the next great thing for videophiles, especially given the disappointment with oled.

 

Check out the passive 3D when a simple blu-ray upconvert.  Holy Moley: easy on the eyes and as smooth as can be.  If they can solve the dramatically narrowing vertical viewing angle (I'm guessing by getting the FPR film closer [along the Z axis] to the LCD array), then it'll *really* be something.  How is it on the eyes?  Smooth smooth smooth.

post #3333 of 3670
For those that are interested in HEVC development. Here is an short article and a conference video where they talk about how HEVC will be used and the future rollout.

Elemental Explains the Significance of HEVC/H.265

.
"Why is HEVC (High Efficiency Video Coding) so important? At the recent Streaming Media East conference in New York City an expert panel explained why HEVC matters and how their companies will support it. The moderator, Jan Ozer, introduced the next-generation codec:"

At the end of the video during questions from attendances there was questions on the future Licensing hurdles. Included in that was questions about VP9 and patent disagreements by Nokia.
The article that was referred to in the video was; VP9 Is Almost Here, But a Nokia Patent Fight Might Have it DOA.

.
May 14 - 2013.
"In a series of blog posts last week, Google detailed the final release schedule for VP9 and a few other implementation details. These posts also indicated that YouTube plans to start using VP9 once it’s available in Chrome. Unfortunately for Google, recent patent infringement claims from Nokia seriously muddy the waters regarding whether or not VP8 and VP9 will ultimately be royalty free."


"There was no update on how VP9 compares to HEVC in terms of quality; the last word on that came in November, 2012, when Google reported that VP9 was about seven percent behind H.265 in terms of quality."
post #3334 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

checked out sony's 4k on display. it appeared to be displaying some native 4k content on a loop

looked damn good

Watched Sony's 55" last night. Great. Spiderman's costume details were uber realistic. Any flaw could be seen.. Set & costume designers work harder to suspend disbelief, just like with the 48fps Hobbit. With all this extra realism going on today will the same arguments be heard again with 4K...."too real", "makes film look like video", "non immersive" ect.
post #3335 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

checked out sony's 4k on display. it appeared to be displaying some native 4k content on a loop

looked damn good

Watched Sony's 55" last night. Great. Spiderman's costume details were uber realistic. Any flaw could be seen.. Set & costume designers work harder to suspend disbelief, just like with the 48fps Hobbit. With all this extra realism going on today will the same arguments be heard again with 4K...."too real", "makes film look like video", "non immersive" ect.

 

4K is a different less pronounced issue than HFR because movies themselves are usually an effective 3.5Kish but yeah, that BS argument will always surface and always be BS.

 

You could draw that same conclusion by watching the remastered Star Trek the original series in HD.  Too funny.  Even though it was shot in film, everything is so accurate in HD that it shows things that would never have been possible to see in the SD quality of the era.  You can see the shaving shadow under the makeup differ as scenes were shot at different times in the day.  The intercom on the wall looked like my 6 y.o. made it out of cardboard.  The costumes are just.....wrong.  Etc.

 

As the demands upon the director/prop masters/etc./etc./etc. go up, so must their efforts to match.  Unless of course those same naysayers wish to claim that HD is "too real" and all that.


Edited by tgm1024 - 7/23/13 at 7:29am
post #3336 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

As the demands upon the director/prop masters/etc./etc./etc. go up, so must their efforts to match.

Will it be C.G. that comes to the rescue? Painting foam rocks and cardboard backdrops...no. The Hobbit had complaints with good C.G. (I didn't see it) What could be done to suspend disbelief other than hiding flaws behind bad image quality?
post #3337 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

Will it be C.G. that comes to the rescue? Painting foam rocks and cardboard backdrops...no. The Hobbit had complaints with good C.G. (I didn't see it) What could be done to suspend disbelief other than hiding flaws behind bad image quality?
They could use real rocks and real/more real buildings. But CGI will also help and get better.
post #3338 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

Will it be C.G. that comes to the rescue? Painting foam rocks and cardboard backdrops...no. The Hobbit had complaints with good C.G. (I didn't see it) What could be done to suspend disbelief other than hiding flaws behind bad image quality?
They could use real rocks and real/more real buildings. But CGI will also help and get better.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that was what was really under it all in every situation.  A certain amount of this has to do with getting used to a different effect.  I'm not convinced, for instance, that SOE doesn't have a place.  Standard film (and display's without SOE showing things filmed) are what we're "used to" but it's far from real life as it is----perhaps SOE is just an over-shoot.  Perhaps the axis is this:

Film <-------> Real Life <---> Video/SOE

(with SOE being closer)


Edited by tgm1024 - 7/24/13 at 8:16am
post #3339 of 3670
Dell shows off the UltraSharp 32 - 4K~32" IGZO full and mini Display ports, HDMI jack, a built-in USB hub and an SD card reader.
No price yet.

Obviously a Sharp panel same as the Sharp and the Asus.
Question is; Have they fixed the problems reported with the Asus, or rather the nVidia problem?
post #3340 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Question is; Have they fixed the problems reported with the Asus, or rather the nVidia problem?
Are there still problems after this driver release? http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/nvidia-geforce-326-19-beta-drivers-released
post #3341 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Are there still problems after this driver release? http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/nvidia-geforce-326-19-beta-drivers-released
I am not sure. I saw a post today that claimed so but I don't think he was fully updated.

Someone posted a link the other day about the Asus and the Tile problem, and in the commentary someone from nVidia participated.
I thought the link was the Asus link posted here, but it must have been another one, and now I can't find it. Anybody know which link I talk about?
Should be possible place to see when the problem was solved.

Here is a short review of the Seiki 39" 4K TV. Page loads very slow; http://www.terracode.com/Seiki_SE39UY04_review/Seiki_SE39UY04_review_P1.html
post #3342 of 3670
Quote:
Are there still problems after this driver release?

Which problems are you referring to?

DisplayPort MST not working during POST?
That requires a firmware upgrade on the monitor.

HDMI Dual not Working?
It might be, haven't heard anyone testing it with the latest (326.29).

No Sharp PN-K321 Support?
Nope still doesn't work, the monitor wasn't added to the EDID whitelist properly. IT will be fixed in a future release.

No Generic 2x1 or 2x2 Surround support?
It doesn't look like they will un-cripple the Windows driver any time soon. NVIDIA management feels the need to protect Quadro revenue even though 2x1 and 2x2 monitor configurations are supported by both AMD consumer GPUs and Intel integrated GPUs. So they will continue to resort to EDID whitelisting any tiled 4K monitors that come out.

I believe this is the thread you were looking for:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/539645/nvidia-surround/2-monitor-gaming-/
post #3343 of 3670
TCL ANNOUNCES 50" 4K ULTRA-HIGH DEFINITION LED TV FOR $999.
Quote:
TCL (The Creative Life), the third largest TV brand in the world, announced their fall product line-up for the US headlined by the 50" edge-lit LED 4K Ultra HD TV launching in September aggressively priced at $999.

One of the fastest-growing manufacturers in the industry, TCL is already the leading television brand in China and their global expansion has elevated them to the third largest HDTV brand in the world. TCL USA launched in the US in 2011 and is committed to providing US consumers with quality products featuring the latest technology at a great value.

4K UHD TVs are priced so high today that most consumers cannot afford them. As one of the world's largest TV brands, TCL is able to change that, so we are launching our 50" 4K TV at a $999 MSRP to allow more consumers to enjoy the stunning picture quality and enhanced resolution of UHD TVs.

While other brands see the introduction of 4K as an opportunity to make large margins – we see it as an opportunity to demonstrate to US consumers the combination of advanced technology and great value we've been delivering across the world for over 30 years."

TCL's 4K TV will upscale all of your favorite HD content - TV shows, sporting events, and movies (both Blu-rays & DVDs) to 4K to provide enhanced picture quality with sharper detail and contrast. The advanced 120Hz CMI (Clear Motion Index) refresh rate displays fast motion sports and action scenes with clarity and smoothness

Four HDMI® inputs allow users to connect to satellite or cable, DVD/Blu-ray players, gaming consoles, and other devices at the same time. As an MHL (Mobile High-Definition Link) enabled TV, users can effortlessly connect smart phones or tablets to the TV to display content while simultaneously charging the device.
post #3344 of 3670

Wow.  Last year I would not have expected the prices to be this low for fall-2013.
 

post #3345 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

was at best buy yesterday for a phone

checked out sony's 4k on display. it appeared to be displaying some native 4k content on a loop

looked damn good


maybe if we can get to 2.0 hdmi and some non upconverted native 4k content, these
sets may be the next great thing for videophiles, especially given the disappointment with oled.

As much as I hate Sony's proprietary crap, I just wish they would come out with a connections on both their 4K sets and PS4 to handle 4K@120hz. HDMI 2.0 has been dragging its feet for far to long.
post #3346 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

As much as I hate Sony's proprietary crap, I just wish they would come out with a connections on both their 4K sets and PS4 to handle 4K@120hz. HDMI 2.0 has been dragging its feet for far to long.
Why does the PS4 need that? It will barely be running any games at 1080p60. There's no need for it to support 4K at 60Hz, and certainly not 120Hz.

4K above 30Hz only matters for PC use right now.
post #3347 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Why does the PS4 need that? It will barely be running any games at 1080p60. There's no need for it to support 4K at 60Hz, and certainly not 120Hz.

4K above 30Hz only matters for PC use right now.
I agree mostly with you there, but........

It has showed on the Seiki UHD panels that they have a Judder problem with real 4K content. Some owners (film makers/editor) complain about it, other owners don't see it.
Most likely cause because the panels are running at 30Hz and not doing a proper process for 24fps material.
This would probably not happen if the panels could do a proper 48Hz of 24fps. (just speculating here)

Could be a software fix that could solve it, but with such problems where some complain and others don't see the problem, it might not be something Seiki would use a lot of time with.
The same problem might be in other 4K panels with HDMI 1.4.
post #3348 of 3670
They could just do 4K at 24Hz instead. Wouldn't make a bit of difference if it's a sample & hold LCD.
post #3349 of 3670
48HZ smooths out some judder like in the movie theatre.

Here is some conversation on the Seiki 50" and 39" UHD.
Quote:
I'm interested to know if the 39" has the same sync and judder issues we have on the 50" model...? Can't seem to get a straight answer and don't really want to buy one to find out.
Quote:
I am having some sync issues on the 39 inch but running it off a gtx 460 on linux using kind of a work-around to get it working at all. When driving it off my gtx 670 I saw no sync issues/dropouts.

I haven't noticed any judder so far. Can you give me a link of a page or a screenshot where you get a lot of judder so I can compare apples to apples?

Er... Anything and everything shown at 3840x2160 @ 24fps. Finally got someone at Seiki to acknowledge that it's a known issue that they're working on, similar to the sync issues. Known, but who knows when or if there will be a fix.

Doesn't matter what source, be it 4K from an upscaling OPPO 103, the REDRAY, running connected to a GTX680 or GTX Titan in different workstations, etc.. Same judder. No judder at HD resolutions or even at 4K when shown at 30fps. But 4K @24fps is judder-city. Not just my display, seen it on every single SEIKI I've tested. Most people claim they don't see it, but I guess I'm more sensitive that way. I'm glad I finally got confirmation that they're acknowledging it. Look back through the 50" SEIKI thread, a couple others who own the panel concur with me. It's really not that bad overall, but once you see it, you always see it. It's like the cadence is just off somewhere, like when at full rez when showing 24Hz, something is just off on their cycle timing of the panel.

Edited by coolscan - 7/25/13 at 1:06pm
post #3350 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

As much as I hate Sony's proprietary crap, I just wish they would come out with a connections on both their 4K sets and PS4 to handle 4K@120hz. HDMI 2.0 has been dragging its feet for far to long.
Why does the PS4 need that? It will barely be running any games at 1080p60. There's no need for it to support 4K at 60Hz, and certainly not 120Hz.

4K above 30Hz only matters for PC use right now.

I'm not sure, but I think he's referring to the eventual 4K movie content.
post #3351 of 3670
Gaming in 12K ~ 3 x Sharp PN-K321 ~ 32" - 4K - Ultra HD displays.

Pushing the 12K PC Gaming Boundary at 1.5 Billion Pixels per Second


.
post #3352 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

They could just do 4K at 24Hz instead. Wouldn't make a bit of difference if it's a sample & hold LCD.
Why? The higher the source frame rate, the better (more natural/realistic, less judder due to low frame rates) it will show, including on sample and hold displays.
post #3353 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Why? The higher the source frame rate, the better (more natural/realistic, less judder due to low frame rates) it will show, including on sample and hold displays.
The source rate for film is 24fps. There is no need for anything above 30Hz with 4K on the consoles. Only PC use can really take advantage of 60Hz and above, at 4K resolutions.
post #3354 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The source rate for film is 24fps. There is no need for anything above 30Hz with 4K on the consoles. Only PC use can really take advantage of 60Hz and above, at 4K resolutions.
Currently most films are 24 fps. For television the current ITU specs go up to 120 fps for UHDTV1. Judder will be more noticeable on TVs at 4K, which is why they're looking at higher frame rates for TV.
There's already a test station broadcasting UHDTV at 50 fps.

When the broadcasters will be using 50 fps or more for UHDTV, why would people want to be limited to a TV that can only accept 30Hz max?
post #3355 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The source rate for film is 24fps. There is no need for anything above 30Hz with 4K on the consoles. Only PC use can really take advantage of 60Hz and above, at 4K resolutions.
Judder will be more noticeable on TVs at 4K

 

Why?

post #3356 of 3670
Quote:
Judder will be more noticeable on TVs at 4K
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Why?
The more detailed and clearly defined each frame is, the easier each separate frame will be noticed as a separate frame. ie. the more it will tend to judder/strobe.

4K TVs will generally be bigger. If you keep the same viewing distance but increase the size of the TV, or change your viewing distance to able to see above 1080p resolution but keep the same screen size, each moving object will jump a greater distance between each frame - leading to increased judder/strobing.

eg. double the screen size, you double the distance each moving object (or the whole screen for pans) jumps between each frame and get increased judder/strobing, assuming the frame rate is the same.
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 7/27/13 at 8:47am
post #3357 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Quote:
Judder will be more noticeable on TVs at 4K
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Why?
The more detailed and clearly defined each frame is, the easier each separate frame will be noticed as a separate frame. ie. the more it will tend to judder/strobe.

 

No, I don't think that's true.  While it's true that increasing frame rate will increase effective (as it appears) spatial resolution, it's not true that increasing spatial resolution decreases effective frame rate.

 

Quote by Joe Bloggs:
Judder will be more noticeable on TVs at 4K, which is why they're looking at higher frame rates for TV.

Even if the first part of this sentence is true (I don't think it is), that's seems a pretty big leap.  It does not ring true to me that 4K is the reason they're looking at higher FPS to start with.

 

What seems more likely to me are 3 things:

  • 4K or not, Increased frame rates are being experimented with, and are happening at the source regardless incrementally.
  • Larger TV sizes are making increased frame rates more and more important, because objects are moving more in screen space.
  • There is a new resolution standard on the horizon, so we're now changing everything anyway.
post #3358 of 3670
Quote:
No, I don't think that's true. While it's true that increasing frame rate will increase effective (as it appears) spatial resolution, it's not true that increasing spatial resolution decreases effective frame rate.
You'll notice the lack of frame rate more, as you notice each frame more. Without increasing the rate, you'll get a higher pixel resolution image of motion blur at whatever the shutter setting is, when anything, including the camera moves. To really gain from the increased spatial resolution, with moving images, you need to increase the frame rate, so you get less blurring. If you just shorten the shutter time you'll get even worse judder/strobing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

[*] Larger TV sizes are making increased frame rates more and more important, because objects are moving more in screen space.
Which is what most of my post said, but which you didn't quote. Larger screen sizes increase the jump between each frame.
Quote:
There is a new resolution standard on the horizon, so we're now changing everything anyway.
True but it's because it's especially needed for the reasons described. The tests they will have done, and are still doing for UHDTV, show it's needed.
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 7/27/13 at 10:51am
post #3359 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Quote:
No, I don't think that's true. While it's true that increasing frame rate will increase effective (as it appears) spatial resolution, it's not true that increasing spatial resolution decreases effective frame rate.
You'll notice the lack of frame rate more, as you notice each frame more.

 

That's just it.  You won't "notice" each frame more.  That's just a flawed premise.  Each frame is more accurate, but nothing is more noticeable than inaccurate frames.

 

Wait a minute: do you mean that in reverse perhaps?  That if the frames are less noticeably bad that you won't be distracted and thus see the other things that are noticeably bad?

 

Joe Bloggs continues:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

[*] Larger TV sizes are making increased frame rates more and more important, because objects are moving more in screen space.


Which is what most of my post said, but which you didn't quote. Larger screen sizes increase the jump between each frame.

 

I didn't quote it, precisely because I'm not at odds with that.

post #3360 of 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

That's just it.  You won't "notice" each frame more.  That's just a flawed premise.  Each frame is more accurate, but nothing is more noticeable than inaccurate frames.

Wait a minute: do you mean that in reverse perhaps?  That if the frames are less noticeably bad that you won't be distracted and thus see the other things that are noticeably bad?
Imagine there's a panning scene in a film. One of the tricks to reduce strobing is to put the background out of focus, so it's blurred, less detailed and follow a moving subject in the foreground.

Also, motion blur helps to avoid strobing. They could have a very short shutter (if they had enough light), and each frame would look very detailed with very little motion blur, but motion would strobe a lot more.

Imagine this is a film scan. It's so detailed you can easily see the film grain:
unblurred.gif 429k .gif file

This is the same as the above, but very blurred. The detail, as well as a lot of the film grain has been blurred out:
blurred.gif 177k .gif file

In which of the 2 is it easier to see each individual frame?
Edited by Joe Bloggs - 7/27/13 at 8:27pm
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