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Pioneer LaserDisc / DVD thread - Page 4

post #91 of 881
4/30/11 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDSegaFan09 View Post
I got a Pioneer CLD S104 player on eBay this past summer for a little over $30. It's perfect for me, considering I'm a beginner LD collector. And plus with the money situation, it was perfect! I have about 20 or 30 LD's so far with another one arriving soon (Rebel Without A Cause). I use my LD player on a 19" Element LCD HDTV and it looks pretty good. However I hooked it up one day to my old RCA 13" CRT and it looks crisp and clear compared to my HDTV. The colors looked plain and bland on my LCD but was very colorful on my CRT, which I'm sure thats the case on ALL current model HDTVs. The only reason why I have my LD player hooked up to my flat screen is mainly so that I can cut off the top and bottom portions of the picture (if the movie is in widescreen mode). I'm curious as to how the LD player will look on our old 40-42"(not sure on the size) Magnavox CRT Projection TV. That might be something I'll do this weekend!
You have to get a quality LCD to get one with a NTSC decoding engine that does justice for the signal. It is very common for the cheaper HDTV's to have a very washed out and not very vivid picture from NTSC sources. Now my Pioneer plasma looks great with LD. Your 13" CRT was designed for NTSC signals.

It gets me how some magazines praise HDTV's like the VIZIO's as being so highly rated. While they will display a decent picture using HDMI, if you use the composite input for NTSC it is nothing great.

Kurtis
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post #92 of 881
4/30/11 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
I have a Pioneer 406 that doesn't play discs. I put the LD in, player makes a little groaning sound, then the tray opens out.Any easy fix for this?
Remove the top, open the tray, unplug the player, pull the tray out a little further and you will see a rubber belt partially under the tray on the front left of the mechanical assembly. Clean that and try again. If that is not it then it would be the plastic assembly holding the movement motor to the pickup.
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post #93 of 881
4/30/11 at 9:17pm
I'm getting a 704 this week, a nice step up from the middle-weight players I've had in the past.
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post #94 of 881
5/11/11 at 1:29pm
Thread Starter 
I currently have a Pioneer DVL-909 on the top of my stack. I have to admit I was a sucker for the LD/DVD combo.

Quoting Bob Tomalski in Home Cinema Choice, August 1998:

"In this comparison it measures second worst for inherent noise, worst for averaged colour quality and worst for video jitter. As for chroma crosstalk, it's almost on an equally low footing as the same-brand DVD-only DV-505."

...and it was like $1500 in 1998!

The analysis listed with the review was:

Jitter : 7ns
Chroma AM : -67.3dB
Chroma PM : -52.1dB
Composite response at 4.0/5.8MHz : -5.21/-8.82dB
S-Video response at 4.0/5.8MHz : -4.39/-8.84dB
Chroma crosstalk : -39.8dB RMS
Inherent S/N : -58.1dB RM

Can somebody give me a brief primer -in English- of what these values mean and what numbers I should be looking for in a machine?

How do i find the same stats for my CLD-D605... or for that matter the CLD-D702 I just sold?
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post #95 of 881
5/11/11 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyfreaks View Post
Jitter : 7ns
They probably mean the jitter in the color subcarrier burst frequency. NTSC specifies +/- 10hz at 3.579545mhz. 7ns is very good for a consumer product. It also means they probably have a digital TBC built in.

Quote:
Chroma AM : -67.3dB
Chroma PM : -52.1dB
Not sure what they mean here. The chroma in NTSC is in fact amplitude AND phase modulated. These figures surely are not S/N because they wouldn't be that good.

Quote:
Composite response at 4.0/5.8MHz : -5.21/-8.82dB
S-Video response at 4.0/5.8MHz : -4.39/-8.84dB
What this means is at 4.0mhz, the video frequency response is almost 6db down or 50%. This is somewhat poor for Laserdisk.

Quote:
Chroma crosstalk : -39.8dB RMS
This must be relating to the comb filter as a pure composite path has what ever crosstalk is encoded in and the player would not degrade it anymore.
Quote:
Inherent S/N : -58.1dB RM
Again I don't know what they mean here. I do know a Laserdisk cannot achieve an honest 58db S/N. But there are ways to get the S/N up to 58db, just not with real life disks you would buy.

As typical with consumer magazine reviews, the measurements do not conform with broadcast industry standards. Thats either due to ignorance of proper measurements or intentional to skew the numbers.
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post #96 of 881
5/11/11 at 2:09pm
The 7xx series was considered the best of the non-elite line.
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post #97 of 881
5/11/11 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyfreaks View Post
I currently have a Pioneer DVL-909 on the top of my stack. I have to admit I was a sucker for the LD/DVD combo.

Quoting Bob Tomalski in Home Cinema Choice, August 1998:

"In this comparison it measures second worst for inherent noise, worst for averaged colour quality and worst for video jitter. As for chroma crosstalk, it's almost on an equally low footing as the same-brand DVD-only DV-505."

...and it was like $1500 in 1998!

The analysis listed with the review was:

Jitter : 7ns
Chroma AM : -67.3dB
Chroma PM : -52.1dB
Composite response at 4.0/5.8MHz : -5.21/-8.82dB
S-Video response at 4.0/5.8MHz : -4.39/-8.84dB
Chroma crosstalk : -39.8dB RMS
Inherent S/N : -58.1dB RM

Can somebody give me a brief primer -in English- of what these values mean and what numbers I should be looking for in a machine?

How do i find the same stats for my CLD-D605... or for that matter the CLD-D702 I just sold?
Would be nice if they said this was the LD or DVD specs. If this is Pioneer published specs then it doesn't mean much as the references are not fixed for every test. If this is from their lab then that is better. Still LD is a composite format and that is where its spec should be take from, composite and S-Video for the filter performance. If DVD performance then component should be measured as that is closer to its recorded format.

As for the DVL-909 and ALL DVL machines including the Elites. It is the DV-505 for dvd playback, you can swap the board from a DV-406 or 606 right into the DVL series from what I remember. For LD playback it is based from the CLD-D604, so basically the same as you CLD-D605. All of these are good basic machines. Your CLD-D702 was a higher end player. The DVL-91 does increase the S-Video sharpness from units I've seen but it is more like turning up the sharpness on your monitor.

In conclusion, stop looking at spec's, if you like the performance then watch and enjoy. If you want more dynamic pictures then you have to go to the separate LD and DVD players.

Kurtis
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post #98 of 881
5/11/11 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyfreaks View Post

I currently have a Pioneer DVL-909 on the top of my stack. I have to admit I was a sucker for the LD/DVD combo.

Quoting Bob Tomalski in Home Cinema Choice, August 1998:

"In this comparison it measures second worst for inherent noise, worst for averaged colour quality and worst for video jitter. As for chroma crosstalk, it's almost on an equally low footing as the same-brand DVD-only DV-505."

...and it was like $1500 in 1998!

I paid $1000 to Crutchfield for mine in Dec. 1998, it was both my first LD player and my first DVD player (and could easily be modded to play DVDs from other regions, which was awesome for someone like me who watched a lot of anime). I don't think Crutchfield discounted prices much, but I could be wrong.
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post #99 of 881
5/12/11 at 1:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtis Bahr View Post


As for the DVL-909... it is based from the CLD-D604, so basically the same as you CLD-D605.

This is essentially what I was looking for. So the 909 is basically a DV-505 and a CLD-D604 crammed into the same box? I knew it was too good to be true.

Quote:
If you want more dynamic pictures then you have to go to the separate LD and DVD players.

is the big difference between the 702 and the 704 mainly the AC3 output?
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post #100 of 881
5/12/11 at 3:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyfreaks View Post

This is essentially what I was looking for. So the 909 is basically a DV-505 and a CLD-D604 crammed into the same box? I knew it was too good to be true.



is the big difference between the 702 and the 704 mainly the AC3 output?

From what I read, the 704 is the same player as the elite cld-79 without the fancy nameplate. Although it's a few years old, this article sums up the players nicely. It says the 703 is essentially the 704 without the ac-3 output, I don't know if the same holds true for the 702.

http://www.mindspring.com/~laserguru/digitalage.html
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post #101 of 881
5/12/11 at 6:54am
The 702 is a good machine, but not the equal of the 703/704. There is no difference between a 703 and 704 other than the AC3 out, but that doesn't hold true for the 702, which is an older design.

And yes, other than some small details, a 79 is just a 704 with a fancier front panel and some rearranged controls.
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post #102 of 881
5/12/11 at 6:12pm
The 704 actually has the Digital audio section from the CLD-99 (even Legato Link unadvertised) where the CLD-79 has the digital audio section from the CLD-D604. So it you use the audio outputs and are extremely picky then the 704 is better than the 79.

The 702 is an older design which is good but the 703/704 picture is a little more dynamic.

All of these have a better video section then the CLD-D604.
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post #103 of 881
5/12/11 at 6:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtis Bahr View Post
The 702 is an older design which is good but the 703/704 picture is a little more dynamic. All of these have a better video section then the CLD-D604.
Thanks, gents! I discovered my 702 had not been sold, so that came home with me today.
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post #104 of 881
5/12/11 at 7:27pm
I just got a great deal on a 704. It's sitting in my theater room ready to be installed Monday. I've got my Criterion Collection Se7en all ready to premiere.

One question. I will run the video through my Denon 2310 receiver, where an Anchor Bay chip will scale it to 1080p to be sent to my Sony vw60 1080p SXRD projector. Am I correct in assuming that even with the advanced comb filter in the 704; the Anchor Bay chip should do a better job, right? Also, am I correct that all the digital controls will be bypassed with a composit output?

I realize that a comb filter was probably not at the to[ of Anchor Bay's to do list. So I'll just ask you experts, let the player do the heavy lifting and send s-video to the Denon, or feed it composite?

Either way, I'm excited! I know laserdisc limitations, especially on a digital 88" screen, but I've spent the last 18 years with middle-of-the-road players. Even though 99% of my viewing will be crystal clear HD and blu ray, I still appreciate laserdiscs. I'm a geek at heart! (Although I cringe when I think of all the cash I dropped on Criterion and "special edition" discs in my college days.)
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post #105 of 881
5/12/11 at 8:31pm
I have a Pioneer 704 that needs a little TLC...is there anyone that can service this unit and do a tuneup on it.

Later
RayJr
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post #106 of 881
5/12/11 at 8:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post

I just got a great deal on a 704. It's sitting in my theater room ready to be installed Monday. I've got my Criterion Collection Se7en all ready to premiere.

One question. I will run the video through my Denon 2310 receiver, where an Anchor Bay chip will scale it to 1080p to be sent to my Sony vw60 1080p SXRD projector. Am I correct in assuming that even with the advanced comb filter in the 704; the Anchor Bay chip should do a better job, right? Also, am I correct that all the digital controls will be bypassed with a composit output?

I realize that a comb filter was probably not at the to[ of Anchor Bay's to do list. So I'll just ask you experts, let the player do the heavy lifting and send s-video to the Denon, or feed it composite?

Either way, I'm excited! I know laserdisc limitations, especially on a digital 88" screen, but I've spent the last 18 years with middle-of-the-road players. Even though 99% of my viewing will be crystal clear HD and blu ray, I still appreciate laserdiscs. I'm a geek at heart! (Although I cringe when I think of all the cash I dropped on Criterion and "special edition" discs in my college days.)

Yes, your receiver with the Anchor Bay chip will have a better comb filter than the one is the 704. Most any modern comb filter is better than the one in the 704.
However, I do not believe that composite out will bypass all the digital processing. I believe that the 704 does Y/C separation internally, processes the signal, and then recombines it for composite output. One of the experts here can verify or correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the behavoir of many players and thus, the damage is already done so to speak. I know that a modification can/has be performed to fetch a pure composite signal, but it is not for the faint of heart.
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post #107 of 881
5/12/11 at 10:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxCatz View Post

Yes, your receiver with the Anchor Bay chip will have a better comb filter than the one is the 704. Most any modern comb filter is better than the one in the 704.
However, I do not believe that composite out will bypass all the digital processing. I believe that the 704 does Y/C separation internally, processes the signal, and then recombines it for composite output. One of the experts here can verify or correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the behavoir of many players and thus, the damage is already done so to speak. I know that a modification can/has be performed to fetch a pure composite signal, but it is not for the faint of heart.

If that is the case, wouldn't it make sense to use s-video to prevent it from recombining to composite, or is the s-video out the product of a second separation after processing?

Is it..
1. composite>split for processing>stay split to s-video out
2. composite>split for processing>recombine to composite>split to s-video out?
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post #108 of 881
5/13/11 at 12:14am
One thing you can do, which will probably improve results, is to hit the "V-DNR OFF" button when starting a disc. The old noise reduction circuitry will probably do more harm than good if there is any postprocessing after the video leaves the player — including the simple kind built into the internal upscalers found in most HDTVs. Unfortunately, the 704 doesn't have the "unprocessed" composite output of a few high-end players (such as the LD-S2, I believe, & Sony HIL-C2EX).
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post #109 of 881
5/13/11 at 12:42am
Even though this is my first player with an AC-3 RF output,and I found a pawnshop link to a working yamaha DDP-1 processor for $33, I've decided to go without it.

I think Dolby Pro-Logic II completely changed the game. Instead of yet another bulky piece of gear, all to decode a 384kbps 5.1 track on a handful of discs, I'm keeping it simple. Either 2 channel uncompressed PCM, or DPL-II with full-range stereo surrounds instead of mono surrounds with AM radio quality bandwidth you used to get with Pro Logic. I've always been a big proponent of DPL-II.

Although I collect DTS encoded laserdiscs, I've never heard a Dolby Digital 5.1 track, so I'm no expert. If some of you think I should go AC-3, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

(If anyone wants the link to the DDP-1, send me a pm)
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post #110 of 881
5/13/11 at 12:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post

I have a Pioneer 704 that needs a little TLC...is there anyone that can service this unit and do a tuneup on it.

Later
RayJr

There is a laserdisc repair expect floating around some ld threads, he shouldn't be too hard to find with a search. Does things like motors, belts, disc clamps, so pretty much everything. Sorry I don't have his name handy.
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post #111 of 881
5/13/11 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post

I have a Pioneer 704 that needs a little TLC...is there anyone that can service this unit and do a tuneup on it.

Later
RayJr

AFAIK, there are only two choices for laserdisc repair/service/tuneup. If you're on the East Coast, Kurtis Bahr - who shows up here regularly - is the go-to guy. However, since you're in CA, I'd suggest Duncan Hunter at Bayview Electronics in Olympia, WA.

Both know their stuff thoroughly - but shipping problems can ruin even the best repair, and Duncan is closer.
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post #112 of 881
5/13/11 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post

Even though this is my first player with an AC-3 RF output,and I found a pawnshop link to a working yamaha DDP-1 processor for $33, I've decided to go without it.

Although I collect DTS encoded laserdiscs, I've never heard a Dolby Digital 5.1 track, so I'm no expert. If some of you think I should go AC-3, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I value having the AC-3 capability, & I do have some discs on which it is quite rewarding. Completely new voice tracks were recorded for the 5.1 remix on one of my Pioneer Japan anime boxsets — El-Hazard, I think. If the target sound format was 5.1, I'd rather go discrete all the way, no matter how good DPL-II is. And, anyway, for films which were 384 kbps AC-3 in the theatre, I don't mind having the same at home.
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post #113 of 881
5/13/11 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayjr View Post

I have a Pioneer 704 that needs a little TLC...is there anyone that can service this unit and do a tuneup on it.

Later
RayJr

I can tune it up but Duncan is much closer to you
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post #114 of 881
5/13/11 at 9:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post

One question. I will run the video through my Denon 2310 receiver, where an Anchor Bay chip will scale it to 1080p to be sent to my Sony vw60 1080p SXRD projector. Am I correct in assuming that even with the advanced comb filter in the 704; the Anchor Bay chip should do a better job, right? Also, am I correct that all the digital controls will be bypassed with a composit output?

I realize that a comb filter was probably not at the to[ of Anchor Bay's to do list. So I'll just ask you experts, let the player do the heavy lifting and send s-video to the Denon, or feed it composite?

First, understand the comb filter in the 704 is from the early 90's and there have been many advances. With that understand the filter in the 704 is before the digital memory and TBC. So every output on the 704 has this process performed on it. The 704 as with most other players perform D/A separately after the Memory TBC IC for the Y and C signals and then do an analog combine for the composite.

Now many decoders and TV's perform extra processing to the composite signal and comb filtering that actually improve the picture over the S-Video input.

So you just have to use both and see what you like better. Composite does not always win.
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post #115 of 881
5/14/11 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtis Bahr View Post

First, understand the comb filter in the 704 is from the early 90's and there have been many advances. With that understand the filter in the 704 is before the digital memory and TBC. So every output on the 704 has this process performed on it. The 704 as with most other players perform D/A separately after the Memory TBC IC for the Y and C signals and then do an analog combine for the composite.

Now many decoders and TV's perform extra processing to the composite signal and comb filtering that actually improve the picture over the S-Video input.

So you just have to use both and see what you like better. Composite does not always win.

So then does the 704 have a component Y/C TBC? Why would they do that with a composite format? Now they need twice the TBC parts and complexity or even three times if the TBC is true component, Y,R-y,B-y.
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post #116 of 881
5/14/11 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

So then does the 704 have a component Y/C TBC? Why would they do that with a composite format? Now they need twice the TBC parts and complexity or even three times if the TBC is true component, Y,R-y,B-y.

Only the DVD combo players have component outputs, and they are only active during DVD playback.
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post #117 of 881
5/14/11 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtis Bahr View Post

So you just have to use both and see what you like better. Composite does not always win.

Agreed, but I can confirm that the 704 looks better over composite than S-Video when processed via HQV Reon. I expect the ABT delivers similar results.
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post #118 of 881
5/14/11 at 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

So then does the 704 have a component Y/C TBC? Why would they do that with a composite format? Now they need twice the TBC parts and complexity or even three times if the TBC is true component, Y,R-y,B-y.

I never said the 704 has component. I said that the TBC and digital memory
(where the DNR done) is Y/C. LD is a composite format so the decode to component is left for the TV/Monitor/processor.

BTW, there are a few units like the CLD-97 that reform the composite in the digital domain and have three D/A video circuits, one for Chroma, one for luminance, and the last for composite.

Kurtis
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post #119 of 881
5/14/11 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxCatz View Post

Agreed, but I can confirm that the 704 looks better over composite S-Video when processed via HQV Reon. I expect the ABT delivers similar results.

I'm confused by "composite s-video". Do you mean s-video?
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post #120 of 881
5/14/11 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post

I'm confused by "composite s-video". Do you mean s-video?

I meant "better over composite THAN s-video."
My brain's built in grammar checker is malfunctioning tonight.
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