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Danley SH-50/SH-60 for dedicated Home Theater - Page 14

post #391 of 705
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post

Hi All
You know, I don't remember if this came up before but as long as some of you are getting them at the same time, a couple thoughts.

If you are using a normal stereo (no delays etc) use a tape measure to place the R and L speakers the same distance (within an inch or two if you can) from the center seat.

When you're in the set up mode, moving things around still, with the narrower pattern speakers like the SH-50 /SM-60 and so on, BE SURE to try the speakers aimed so that they cross over in front of the listening position.
I have my SH-50's aimed so that the center of the right speaker is pointed at the outside edge of the left most seat (on the couch) and visaversa.
In commercial sound, one often uses the side of the radiation lobe to contour the loudness.
If you aim them like this, crossed over in front of the couch, it makes the sweet spot wider. This works really well even with just two channels.

If it happened to work out that the L and R speaker can be placed against the side walls on their angled side AND still point more or less in the right place, THAT is as close as one can get to outdoors and still be in a room, this works really really well especially for conventional stereo.
Have fun guys!
Best,
Tom Danley

Thank you sir! I will try it at once.
post #392 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04FLHRCI View Post

I laid on the floor listening to mine for 2 hours last night; longest music session I've enjoyed in years.

So we take it then the Danleys passed your first test

I have a feeling that next week is very likely going to be an interesting one for all who are reading this thread; we are hoping for a first impression from you, perhaps a follow-up from kutlow and even a review from lion. And ettepet might even give us a tease if he gets his Danleys.
I can't wait!
post #393 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post

Hi All
You know, I don’t remember if this came up before but as long as some of you are getting them at the same time, a couple thoughts.

If you are using a normal stereo (no delays etc) use a tape measure to place the R and L speakers the same distance (within an inch or two if you can) from the center seat.

When you’re in the set up mode, moving things around still, with the narrower pattern speakers like the SH-50 /SM-60 and so on, BE SURE to try the speakers aimed so that they cross over in front of the listening position.
I have my SH-50's aimed so that the center of the right speaker is pointed at the outside edge of the left most seat (on the couch) and visaversa.
In commercial sound, one often uses the side of the radiation lobe to contour the loudness.
If you aim them like this, crossed over in front of the couch, it makes the sweet spot wider. This works really well even with just two channels.

If it happened to work out that the L and R speaker can be placed against the side walls on their angled side AND still point more or less in the right place, THAT is as close as one can get to outdoors and still be in a room, this works really really well especially for conventional stereo.
Have fun guys!
Best,
Tom Danley


Hello Tom,

My system is horn-based, including two Klipschorns in the left and right corners. I've never tried the aiming configuration you mentioned. Yet, as I think more about the approach, it strikes me that changing the aim of my left and right front speakers to the orientation you described might well produce benefits in my room.

Thanks for the tip...I intend to give it a try.


Tom
post #394 of 705
Mr. Danley and jheyau are both correct with placement, imo. After spending hours and days playing with placement my favorite position wounded up being ontop of my DTS-10s. Both of which are in opposite front corners, with sides flush against the wall. This places the sm-60s a few feet over my head. If I can remember, I will take a picture this weekend. The stereo image this positioning produced is rather frightening. I recomend "Maggie Mae" and "Dig It" from The Beatles, Let it Be, album. The three dimensional spacing is surreal. Also, pick up Vienna Teng's, Inland Territories, or Dreaming Through the Noise. The recordings for these albums are very well done!


Forin
post #395 of 705
"Ivan,

I have a question which may be ignorant or just plain stupid so bear with me .

You take an SM60f and an SH50 and cross them at 80hz to your subs. Then EQ them to the same level. If you then play music with the subs off (with good midbass of course),
-Will the SH50 hit harder with it's 2 12's compared to the 2 8's in the 60f?
-Does crossing them at 80hz eliminate much of the midbass punch to begin with?
-Will having them EQ'ed to the same level make them indistinguishable.
-Is there a certain dbl level where the SH50 would hit harder.

Thanks
Moto"

Ivan,
ference_k gave me a good response to this but I would still like to hear you or Tom's input on it.

Thanks
post #396 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

"Ivan,

I have a question which may be ignorant or just plain stupid so bear with me .

You take an SM60f and an SH50 and cross them at 80hz to your subs. Then EQ them to the same level. If you then play music with the subs off (with good midbass of course),
-Will the SH50 hit harder with it's 2 12's compared to the 2 8's in the 60f?
-Does crossing them at 80hz eliminate much of the midbass punch to begin with?
-Will having them EQ'ed to the same level make them indistinguishable.
-Is there a certain dbl level where the SH50 would hit harder.

Thanks
Moto"

Ivan,
ference_k gave me a good response to this but I would still like to hear you or Tom's input on it.

Thanks

Indistinguishable is a very strong term. And the simple answer is not even close.

HOWEVER---------

The typical good listener can tell differences between regular production units of the same model number. A half a db wiggle here, a quarter dB bump here, a half db dip there and so forth.

Those very subtle differences can give a different sound to the same loudspeaker. I ahve done listening tests that the speakers are switched blindly. On one song I may like A better-but on another song I may like B better. Maybe it is the way the snare snaps-or the vocal sticks out-or the sound of the reverb tail, or the way you hear the pads on a clarinet or the sound of the flute players breath, the sound of the bow on the strings of a bowed instrument etc.

And that is on the same model. So even the same model will not be indistinguishable from cabinet to cabinet. You may not be able to pick out the differences, but they can be heard.

AND PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME that what I said was that the same models sound different. But yes they do-and so do every other loudspeaker-IN a controlled environment (read no reflections)-with the same physical position of both the loudspeaker and the listener head (you can't move either more than an inch or so-if that).

There are small differences between the actual loudspeaker drivers (remember tehy are mechanical devices), crossover part tolerance and so forth.

Every single (no spot checking) Danley cabinet goes through a final production measurement in which the response curve has to fit within a tolerance and those are recorded by serial number for future reference if needed. But there is a little room for "wiggle"-as every loudspeaker has.

ALSO remember that that I said a "good listener". The normal person would not be able to tell the difference. So it depends on where the "standard" is and who is listening. It is interesting to hear comments of various people as they come through the demo room. Some people think that models- that sound very obviously different-sound the same. We all have different references and that is VERY hard to account for and pick up on internet "sonic descriptions".

With that being said-the SH50/60 and the SM60F have very different "sounds". Even with the low end extensions taken out. OK you cannot take it out, even if crossover at 80Hz, the low freq will sound different because the levels of the bass are still different. Remember that a crossover does not STOP the response-it only provides a shelf/rolloff.

And before someboyd jumps in and say a 96dB octave rolloff will pretty much stop the sound-I agree. But it will also change the sound wiht ringing-unnatural sound and so forth-so you have ruined the sound before you have a chance to listen to sonic differences-and I don't want to get into that.

And if you are 10dB hotter with no crossover-then when you apply the crossover, the cabinet that was 10dB hotter down low will still be 10dB hotter-only lower than the rest of the signal (due to the rolloff).

It is really hard to describe accurately the differences in sound "quality". In side by side tests, I would prefer the SH50 on one song and the SM60 on another. They could be the same album or very different styles. And the style doesn't matter-so it is not like one is better for rock and the other for jazz or anything like that.

And even if you were to eq them the same (I have done this with other products as well-but not yet on products of similar construction/design-like the SH50 and SM60F) the "sound" differences often remain the same-although they may sound different with and without eq.

The reason is that Eq only address a limited part of a loudspeakers sound-the amplitude and to a certain extent the phase. But there are lots of other factors that give one model a particular "sound" over another. Eq won't fix/change those.

As a general description (my opinion anyway) of the differences in the sound.

Remember that the SH50 is what all Danley products are referred back to.

And remember that I hate to use "hifi" terms to try to describe sound-but don't know any other way.

The SH50 is more "rounded-smoother-inviting-warm quilt in the winter time wrapped around you" type sound. The SM60F is more "clear-detailed-open".

Take those for what you think I might mean. It is the best I can do

There are the very obvious differences-sensitivity-power handling-low and high freq response-pattern and pattern control etc that also come into play.

And before you ask-I do not have the time to actually EQ them side by side and do a direct comparisom-at least not for a couple of months. My schedule is already overflowing at least until the end of July.

As much as I would like to take the time-it simply isn't there now.

I don't know it this helps or jsut confuses the matter more.

Personally I wold not choose one over the other in terms of soudn quality.

Pattern-physical size-cost would be my determineing factors for a home setup.

In a larger performance room-my criteria (in order) are Pattern needs-output needed-cost-sound quality. Although I almost never get to the sound quality part-because one of the other issues is way more important (but not in all cases)

.
post #397 of 705
Ivan, I know your engineers came up with a way to split a TH221 into two seperate subs. Then you basically can slide them next to each other or put one in one area and the other in another. Is this correct? If so are you going to have this anytime soon at the Danley Showroom for a demo?
post #398 of 705
Ivan, thanks for sharing your insights (again). It will be interesting to see what benefits Audyssey XT32 etc. can bring to either speaker (SH50 and SM60F). Currently XT32 is doing wonderful (at times awesome) stuff at my home.
post #399 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Ivan, I know your engineers came up with a way to split a TH221 into two seperate subs. Then you basically can slide them next to each other or put one in one area and the other in another. Is this correct? If so are you going to have this anytime soon at the Danley Showroom for a demo?

I am not sure what the exact details are-but I don't remember anything about them being stand alone cabinets-but I could be wrong. But that along with the different sound exit will take a bit of "rework" in the design/CNC programming etc.

But I am pretty sure that specialty product will not be showing up anytime soon at the demo room-sorry. We have a several other new products that are being worked on (that take up programming/engineering/production time) getting ready for Infocomm, and along with the stadium orders that are coming in-that particular product will have to take a back seat-so to speak for a little while-sorry.

Maybe you just need to remove a wall to get the regular product in?
post #400 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Maybe you just need to remove a wall to get the regular product in?

Does Danley offer a demolition model?
post #401 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

Does Danley offer a demolition model?

Yes. The model number is "Matterhorn"

Unfortunatly it is not very precise. It tends tear up what you want-and everything around it.
post #402 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Yes. The model number is "Matterhorn"

Unfortunatly it is not very precise. It tends tear up what you want-and everything around it.

It was not too bad either from ancient times: A giant simulator of sonic
boom and aircraft noise
132 dB at 3 Hz from 2m.

post #403 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferenc_k View Post

It was not too bad either from ancient times: A giant simulator of sonic
boom and aircraft noise
132 dB at 3 Hz from 2m.


And that project was stopped when the test house cracked-literally and became unsafe for people (the test subjects) to be in.

Yes you can damage a house with to much bass. That is not a myth.
post #404 of 705
Mythbusters should be calling you guys instead of Meyers
post #405 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

And that project was stopped when the test house cracked-literally and became unsafe for people (the test subjects) to be in.

Yes you can damage a house with to much bass. That is not a myth.

I will ask what every bass head is thinking.

Can it be purchased? Are the plans available freely?
post #406 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

I will ask what every bass head is thinking.

Can it be purchased? Are the plans available freely?

Oooh, yeah! Matterhorn Kit! It could ship in itself. Perfect!

Plus, assembly would only require experience in woodworking, welding, electronic engineering, etc. It's a total beginner project!
post #407 of 705
kutlow will take three. Mark, couldn't resist!
post #408 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

I will ask what every bass head is thinking.

Can it be purchased? Are the plans available freely?

Sure, just place an order.

It is semi portable. If you have a semi-it is portable.

No, the plans are not available.

Placement is not hard-simply remove one wall and back it up and open the doors.
post #409 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

Oooh, yeah! Matterhorn Kit! It could ship in itself. Perfect!

Plus, assembly would only require experience in woodworking, welding, electronic engineering, etc. It's a total beginner project!

And some people think shipping is high on a DTS10

I spent almost 2 months building it. At times I had additional help-but would estimate about 80Hrs/week man hours for about 8 weeks.

So a nice weekend(s) project.
post #410 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

I am not sure what the exact details are-but I don't remember anything about them being stand alone cabinets-but I could be wrong. But that along with the different sound exit will take a bit of "rework" in the design/CNC programming etc.

But I am pretty sure that specialty product will not be showing up anytime soon at the demo room-sorry. We have a several other new products that are being worked on (that take up programming/engineering/production time) getting ready for Infocomm, and along with the stadium orders that are coming in-that particular product will have to take a back seat-so to speak for a little while-sorry.

Maybe you just need to remove a wall to get the regular product in?

Hey im from West Virginia and we sure know how to rig up stuff. I could stick it through a wall like a window Air Conditioner. lol.

The new products that your working on is it a new sub that might be a fit for my theater. I need to know because I have a guy wanting my 3 DTS 10'S!
post #411 of 705
After building brackets from wood I just didnt like the look. So I pulled them down and bough a piece of 3 inch wide 3/16" thick steel and used a torch to heat up the bend areas and made some brackets. Then I painted them. It was alot of work and I wouldnt ever do it again. Id just buy the Danley Brackets! Then again now I have saved 350.00 that can go towards the TH221!

Ivan you think the new Jerrico would satisfy my need?

Heating up the steel with a acetylene/oxygen torch.



Bent Brackets



Mounted the brackets to a 2 x 6





SH100 C LEFT Side surround mounted




2 REAR SH100 C Mounted


Right SH100 Side Surround and Right rear SH 100 C


2 Crest 9200 and Marantz AV7005 Pre Pro. Waiting for 3 more Crest 8200


Im very happy with how it turned out. I know alot of you guys like seeing pictures of these speakers so I hope you enjoy. If any of you guys are ever in the Montgomery Alabama Area and want a demo please let me know.
post #412 of 705
Congratulations! Looks really nice and no neighbours too close
post #413 of 705
Quote:


Indistinguishable is a very strong term. And the simple answer is not even close.

HOWEVER---------

The typical good listener can tell differences between regular production units of the same model number. A half a db wiggle here, a quarter dB bump here, a half db dip there and so forth....

Ivan, when you answer a question you don't mess around ! Bottom line is I will have to work out which is better for my room (when I can financially make this happen).

Thanks
Moto
post #414 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

Ivan, when you answer a question you don't mess around ! Bottom line is I will have to work out which is better for my room (when I can financially make this happen).

Thanks
Moto

The problem is that simple answers lead to either confusing or misinterpeted answers.

It helps to try and explain it a little bit. But I do tend to ramble at times
post #415 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Hey im from West Virginia and we sure know how to rig up stuff. I could stick it through a wall like a window Air Conditioner. lol.

The new products that your working on is it a new sub that might be a fit for my theater. I need to know because I have a guy wanting my 3 DTS 10'S!

The newest sub is basically a DBH218 that has a cutoff a good bit lower. 25-26Hz is the design target.

So not exactly low enough for HT usage.

The main intent is in larger rooms to be able to get the punch/impact of the 218 with lower extension.

It is a bit larger than the current DBH218 in that is the depth is 60"-all other dimensions are the same.

It also has a moveable exit so it can stand up against the wall and not stick our so far into the room.
post #416 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Sure, just place an order.

It is semi portable. If you have a semi-it is portable.


That's a classic, Ivan.
post #417 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

The newest sub is basically a DBH218 that has a cutoff a good bit lower. 25-26Hz is the design target.

So not exactly low enough for HT usage.

The main intent is in larger rooms to be able to get the punch/impact of the 218 with lower extension.

It is a bit larger than the current DBH218 in that is the depth is 60"-all other dimensions are the same.

It also has a moveable exit so it can stand up against the wall and not stick our so far into the room.

Ivan can the TH221 be made that way. Have the TH221 stand up like a DTS 10 and have the port blow out towards the seating area? That way id only have to move my screen 12 inches closer to the seating area. By looking at the port now it does look like it could be done very easy however Im no audio guy. Im just a guy searching for a way to fit this puppy in my theater.
post #418 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Ivan can the TH221 be made that way. Have the TH221 stand up like a DTS 10 and have the port blow out towards the seating area? That way id only have to move my screen 12 inches closer to the seating area. By looking at the port now it does look like it could be done very easy however Im no audio guy. Im just a guy searching for a way to fit this puppy in my theater.

That is one thing we are looking at- Basically making it kinda like our TH28 in which you can move the exit from one place to the other to give flexability in mounting/laying down/stacking up etc.
post #419 of 705
Semi bump, 6th page is to far back for this thread

Ivan, Ive been playing with crossover settings between the dts-10 and sm60f, I used to have everything @ 80hz. Now I have the sh-100 at 70 micros at 80hz and am torn between 50hz and 60hz for the sm-60s. Do you think 50hz hp is to low for the sm-60s? Its been hard isolating content that is 70-40 hz in movies.

Forin
post #420 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by forin View Post
Ivan, Ive been playing with crossover settings between the dts-10 and sm60f, I used to have everything @ 80hz. Now I have the sh-100 at 70 micros at 80hz and am torn between 50hz and 60hz for the sm-60s. Do you think 50hz hp is to low for the sm-60s? Its been hard isolating content that is 70-40 hz in movies.
A crossover is not a hard limit, and where to put it depends a lot on your room/placement. The SM60F's drop off around 80Hz on their own, so that would naturally be a good place to start. Anthem's ARC calibration system for instance will just as well let your subwoofer drop off above 60Hz and your speaker drop off below 90Hz. All to get the best (flattest, most natural sounding) response.

If you don't have advanced auto calibration (Audyssey Pro would be ideal, where you can see detailed graphs and set filters) you will need to manually measure SPL at various frequencies for all your speakers + subs.
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