Quote:
Originally Posted by
MX48 
"Ivan,
I have a question which may be ignorant or just plain stupid so bear with me .
You take an SM60f and an SH50 and cross them at 80hz to your subs. Then EQ them to the same level. If you then play music with the subs off (with good midbass of course),
-Will the SH50 hit harder with it's 2 12's compared to the 2 8's in the 60f?
-Does crossing them at 80hz eliminate much of the midbass punch to begin with?
-Will having them EQ'ed to the same level make them indistinguishable.
-Is there a certain dbl level where the SH50 would hit harder.
Thanks
Moto"
Ivan,
ference_k gave me a good response to this but I would still like to hear you or Tom's input on it.
Thanks
Indistinguishable is a very strong term. And the simple answer is not even close.
HOWEVER---------
The typical good listener can tell differences between regular production units of the same model number. A half a db wiggle here, a quarter dB bump here, a half db dip there and so forth.
Those very subtle differences can give a different sound to the same loudspeaker. I ahve done listening tests that the speakers are switched blindly. On one song I may like A better-but on another song I may like B better. Maybe it is the way the snare snaps-or the vocal sticks out-or the sound of the reverb tail, or the way you hear the pads on a clarinet or the sound of the flute players breath, the sound of the bow on the strings of a bowed instrument etc.
And that is on the same model. So even the same model will not be indistinguishable from cabinet to cabinet. You may not be able to pick out the differences, but they can be heard.
AND PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME that what I said was that the same models sound different. But yes they do-and so do every other loudspeaker-IN a controlled environment (read no reflections)-with the same physical position of both the loudspeaker and the listener head (you can't move either more than an inch or so-if that).
There are small differences between the actual loudspeaker drivers (remember tehy are mechanical devices), crossover part tolerance and so forth.
Every single (no spot checking) Danley cabinet goes through a final production measurement in which the response curve has to fit within a tolerance and those are recorded by serial number for future reference if needed. But there is a little room for "wiggle"-as every loudspeaker has.
ALSO remember that that I said a "good listener". The normal person would not be able to tell the difference. So it depends on where the "standard" is and who is listening. It is interesting to hear comments of various people as they come through the demo room. Some people think that models- that sound very obviously different-sound the same. We all have different references and that is VERY hard to account for and pick up on internet "sonic descriptions".
With that being said-the SH50/60 and the SM60F have very different "sounds". Even with the low end extensions taken out. OK you cannot take it out, even if crossover at 80Hz, the low freq will sound different because the levels of the bass are still different. Remember that a crossover does not STOP the response-it only provides a shelf/rolloff.
And before someboyd jumps in and say a 96dB octave rolloff will pretty much stop the sound-I agree. But it will also change the sound wiht ringing-unnatural sound and so forth-so you have ruined the sound before you have a chance to listen to sonic differences-and I don't want to get into that.
And if you are 10dB hotter with no crossover-then when you apply the crossover, the cabinet that was 10dB hotter down low will still be 10dB hotter-only lower than the rest of the signal (due to the rolloff).
It is really hard to describe accurately the differences in sound "quality". In side by side tests, I would prefer the SH50 on one song and the SM60 on another. They could be the same album or very different styles. And the style doesn't matter-so it is not like one is better for rock and the other for jazz or anything like that.
And even if you were to eq them the same (I have done this with other products as well-but not yet on products of similar construction/design-like the SH50 and SM60F) the "sound" differences often remain the same-although they may sound different with and without eq.
The reason is that Eq only address a limited part of a loudspeakers sound-the amplitude and to a certain extent the phase. But there are lots of other factors that give one model a particular "sound" over another. Eq won't fix/change those.
As a general description (my opinion anyway) of the differences in the sound.
Remember that the SH50 is what all Danley products are referred back to.
And remember that I hate to use "hifi" terms to try to describe sound-but don't know any other way.
The SH50 is more "rounded-smoother-inviting-warm quilt in the winter time wrapped around you" type sound. The SM60F is more "clear-detailed-open".
Take those for what you think I might mean. It is the best I can do
There are the very obvious differences-sensitivity-power handling-low and high freq response-pattern and pattern control etc that also come into play.
And before you ask-I do not have the time to actually EQ them side by side and do a direct comparisom-at least not for a couple of months. My schedule is already overflowing at least until the end of July.
As much as I would like to take the time-it simply isn't there now.
I don't know it this helps or jsut confuses the matter more.
Personally I wold not choose one over the other in terms of soudn quality.
Pattern-physical size-cost would be my determineing factors for a home setup.
In a larger performance room-my criteria (in order) are Pattern needs-output needed-cost-sound quality. Although I almost never get to the sound quality part-because one of the other issues is way more important (but not in all cases)
.
