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Danley SH-50/SH-60 for dedicated Home Theater - Page 19

post #541 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Hey, Hey, Hey...excuse me...but that's not much of a comparison if you're cherry picking content so that the Danley's don't look bad.
It's not that I'm getting paid here!

I would rather think that by eliminating lower region bass from the equation the strengths of the SM60's would become MORE apparent, not less. Or would you rather see me puting a SubMersive beneath each SM60F and go for a joint victory thingy?
post #542 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet View Post
It's not that I'm getting paid here!

I would rather think that by eliminating lower region bass from the equation the strengths of the SM60's would become MORE apparent, not less. Or would you rather see me puting a SubMersive beneath each SM60F and go for a joint victory thingy?
Remember that the SM60F was not intended to be a stand alone full range box. Athought it has found other uses (for home-as experienced by some), it was intended to be used with subs.

So it will not have as much lower bass as some other designs.

Since most home systems have subs now-having a cabinet that goes to say 40Hz is not as important.

And yes the SM60F could be redesigned slightly and have flat response down to around 40Hz. But the tradeoff would be sensitivity. Not much of a problem for the typical home usage-but that would be problem in larger rooms.

Tom has actually talked about making a lower sensitivity SM60. It just depends if it is worth the extra design effort.
post #543 of 696
Ivan, that was exactly my starting point.

Rather than compare speakers by adding extra variables (for instance a sub) it seems better to bypass the whole "subwoofer domain" in a natural way: through a choice of content, not 'phase polluting' high pass filtering.
post #544 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet View Post

Ivan, that was exactly my starting point.

Rather than compare speakers by adding extra variables (for instance a sub) it seems better to bypass the whole "subwoofer domain" in a natural way: through a choice of content, not 'phase polluting' high pass filtering.

And to add that people often get confused about what highpassing does and how it sounds. Many think the response stops at the filter freq-but it actually rolls off

If you have 2 loudspeakers-(one that has a lot mroe bass than another) and put a normal highpass filter on them (say 24dB or less), then listen to material with bass content below the crossover freq-the cabinet with the deeper origional response will still sound deeper.
post #545 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

And yes the SM60F could be redesigned slightly and have flat response down to around 40Hz. But the tradeoff would be sensitivity. Not much of a problem for the typical home usage-but that would be problem in larger rooms.

That would be great option for the DIY kit project. The speakers would not be geared to pro use, so the kit would not eat into that part of your business, and it gives you guys a way to disperse the cost of redesigning the SM60F
post #546 of 696
I think I read from somewhere very recently that Tom is thinking of designing a floor-standing version of the SM60 with built-in subwoofers aiming at the home hi-fi market.
post #547 of 696
Ivan if you stack 2 SH50 on top of each other and run the speaker wire to one and then do the daisy from that on to the other what ohm will it draw from the amp? The SH50 is 4 ohm. Does it now go to 2 OHM or 8 OHM? I have a chance to buy 2 more slightly used ones at a great price. Would the Crest 8200 be strong enough? Would I gain anything?
post #548 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I have a chance to buy 2 more slightly used ones at a great price.


Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
post #549 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Ivan if you stack 2 SH50 on top of each other and run the speaker wire to one and then do the daisy from that on to the other what ohm will it draw from the amp? The SH50 is 4 ohm. Does it now go to 2 OHM or 8 OHM? I have a chance to buy 2 more slightly used ones at a great price. Would the Crest 8200 be strong enough? Would I gain anything?

It would be 2 ohm. It would be louder Ibecause of the coupling and the lower impedance (additional power)

HOWEVER it would not sound as good. This will be because of the interference between the two units.

If you were to place them side by side,m they would not interfer.

However you would lose the gain-because now they are radiating into 2 different areas.

To be honest-I think your money could be better spent elsewhere in your system.
post #550 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Tom has actually talked about making a lower sensitivity SM60. It just depends if it is worth the extra design effort.

A mid-90s dB/W/m molded Synergy with a shallower rolloff in the bass than the SM60F sounds like the PERFECT Synergy kit speaker!
post #551 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

A mid-90s dB/W/m molded Synergy with a shallower rolloff in the bass than the SM60F sounds like the PERFECT Synergy kit speaker!

That is one thing that has been discussed.
post #552 of 696
Sunday I had a friend over to try out his Onix Melody SP3 tube amp on my SM60F's. We used an Arcam dv27a dvd/cd-player as an analog source.

I wasn't in the hot spot but immediately noticed a very clean, smooth sound. This was much to my surprise because in general I clearly prefer the digital output of the dv27a. When we came to Jeff Buckley's album version of Hallelujah chills were running down my spine as I heard every little breath and nuance (which I never knew I was missing). It has been years since the last time I felt a good stereo setup do that, and never at home (and until now never way outside the hot spot). We also tried a pair of X-amps that were brought over and the Onkyo 5008 with the Emotiva MPS-1.

My visitor favorably compared the Danleys + Melody SP3 to a Parasound driven pair of Wilson Benesch Arc speakers he heard extensively during a shoot out. He also very much liked the quality of the Onkyo + Emotiva through the Danleys.

I guess I'll have to look out for a good stereo DAQ/amp...
post #553 of 696
TheLion,

Any updates on your experiences with Danley?

Thanks
post #554 of 696
In case anyone didn't see, there's a set of 4 SH60T's on the the Bay. A quick search and you'll find them. Location: Wisconsin. Shipping's free but this could be one of those deals that's better to pick up locally.

Total overkill for most HT setups, but this is AVS Forum!
post #555 of 696
Yes still looking forward to theLion's review...
post #556 of 696
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterkit View Post
Yes still looking forward to theLion's review...
I know... ;-)


It certainly is the thoughest speaker to evaluate objectively. It takes months to get used to the sound signature which is like nothing else. Straight "out of the box" in a room without extensive treatment and of standard size, without any EQ I will go as far as saying this: Get yourself a Seaton Catalyst and be done with it. If you try to build something really special it takes alot of effort to get the best out of the Danley's. A rather large room with excellent accoustic treatment, best possible signal chain, optimized speaker placement and state of the art "room correction" to get the frequency response "smooth enough" - than you can reach a level of performance that is hardly comparable with "standard speaker designs".
post #557 of 696
So which are you keeping ?
post #558 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post
I know... ;-)


It certainly is the thoughest speaker to evaluate objectively. It takes months to get used to the sound signature which is like nothing else. Straight "out of the box" in a room without extensive treatment and of standard size, without any EQ I will go as far as saying this: Get yourself a Seaton Catalyst and be done with it. If you try to build something really special it takes alot of effort to get the best out of the Danley's. A rather large room with excellent accoustic treatment, best possible signal chain, optimized speaker placement and state of the art "room correction" to get the frequency response "smooth enough" - than you can reach a level of performance that is hardly comparable with "standard speaker designs".
Interesting.

From Ivan's subjective description of the differences between the SH50 and the SM60, it appears that the tonal balance of the SH50 is weighted more toward to the bass/mid-bass/midrange than the SM60.

In my system, I finally figured out a way to get the SM60M's off the floor! I hung the screen and changed the room layout to allow the SM60M's to be at a little above ear height and flanking the screen. The angled side is flush with the left/right walls.

Changes to earlier impressions due to new (more ideal) placement:

Soundstage wider (expected) and deeper (unexpected)

Getting more ceiling bounce (naturally, from a 7' attic ceiling) which until treated, has muddied up the pure stereo imaging a bit. Room treatments to the rescue ASAP!

When the speakers were sitting directly on the floor, the floor bounce created an artificial warmth and also precluded the direct ceiling bounce from hitting the listener position within the time window for the precedence effect to smear the sound image.

Now that the L/R SM60M's are aligned in height and room placement with the SH100's (LS/RS) the multichannel experience is even more immersive and less cluttered by the room boundary interaction.

As to the difficulty of placing these Synergy design speakers in a given room:

The directivity alone solves many issues present in rooms.
The tonal balance all across the pattern, vertically and horizontally also simplifies the interaction with the room, at least in terms of tonal consistency.

Of course, for the ultimate optimization, room treatments and speaker placement vis a vis wall boundaries and the listener position must be tweaked. I am impressed with how much EASIER the Synergy design makes this tweaking process, especially when using both ears and measurements in tandem.

However, the difference in tonal weight balance between your SH50's and the SM60M's to which I refer may be making it more difficult to get the tonal balance you are looking for at the listener position.

More details on the issues you have been seeing in your space and the solutions you have tried would be helpful to all. No dropping an information grenade in the tank and then running for cover!
post #559 of 696
TheLion,

Did you ever post your impressions on the Danley speakers?

Thanks
post #560 of 696
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

TheLion,

Did you ever post your impressions on the Danley speakers?

Thanks

Not quite yet. Let me just say that after much refinement in setup and calibration the SH-50 up there with the best I have heard. In a very special way that certainly is a love or hate kind of thing.

More when I made up my mind about all aspects.
post #561 of 696
Kutlow did you buy any DSL subs yet?(DBH218LC)

And could someone tell me their opinions of the SM60F vs SH100B?

I have been looking at the SH line and have read as much as I can. Cant seem to ever get DSL to return emails to me but atleast their are forum members here to help. To me the difference is the price which is about 500 a speaker. The 100B I think can reach down deeper which would be nice. And does anyone know the crossover point for the 100B's TH?
post #562 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

And could someone tell me their opinions of the SM60F vs SH100B?

Earlier it was mentioned that the SH100(B)'s are among the first products DSL made and considered "more primitive" Synergy Horns than recent products. I have only heard the SM60F's but would guess the SH100B's to be less of a point source and behave less coherent in directivity and phase.

The latter two you could check by comparing the spec sheets and polar diagrams, available from Danley's site.
post #563 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet View Post

Earlier it was mentioned that the SH100(B)'s are among the first products DSL made and considered "more primitive" Synergy Horns than recent products. I have only heard the SM60F's but would guess the SH100B's to be less of a point source and behave less coherent in directivity and phase.

The latter two you could check by comparing the spec sheets and polar diagrams, available from Danley's site.

Hey Ettepet,

How do you like you DSL speakers?
How do they compare to your Seatons?
post #564 of 696
The SM60F seems to be able to excel over the 100b above 100hz. Everything lower is better with the 100B due to its TH.

SM60F seems to be the better sensitivity chart by a long shot but you cant always go by sensitivity readings.

I keep looking at budget minded SH's and trying to figure what I would lose in comparison to the SH50. I was going to build a dual 15 horn type setup for monster impact from 50-200hz. Those are the areas I was wanting more of which generally is displayed in pro audio speakers meant for bigger cinemas.

Now I am thinking that with the SH50 I would be fine but I am still trying to see if there is a more budget friendly option. SH100 was the first thought but I wanted to have alot more of the mid bass slam. SO I started looking more at the 100B and 60F. Being that these two are closer in price is the other reason for me wanting to compare them.

But 60F vs SH50 is the sound drastic? Meaning night and day or just more of?
post #565 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by parapet View Post

Hey Ettepet,

How do you like you DSL speakers?
How do they compare to your Seatons?

I was extremely impressed by them a couple of weeks ago (posted about it here a while back). Haven't listened to them since.

I am somewhat puzzled why the SH50's would not sound superb straight out of the box. They add the only thing the SM60F's lack in pure stereo: lower (<70Hz) bass.
post #566 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Kutlow did you buy any DSL subs yet?(DBH218LC)

And could someone tell me their opinions of the SM60F vs SH100B?

I have been looking at the SH line and have read as much as I can. Cant seem to ever get DSL to return emails to me but atleast their are forum members here to help. To me the difference is the price which is about 500 a speaker. The 100B I think can reach down deeper which would be nice. And does anyone know the crossover point for the 100B's TH?

They are really very different "animals" with very different intended applications.

The patterns are very different, the low freq output is very different and so forth.

Who have you been sending Emails to at Danley? I will be sure to remind them.

There is a electronic device that is much more personal than email and gets a much faster response. It is called a telephone. A lot of people are not aware of this device now a days. HA-HA

I don't understand the last part of you question "the crossover point for hte 100B's TH?" Maybe you can state it a different way. I suggest a highpass for the 100B around 40Hz. But depending on how hard you run it, it could be lower.

The 100B goes about an octave lower than the SM60F.
post #567 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet View Post

Earlier it was mentioned that the SH100(B)'s are among the first products DSL made and considered "more primitive" Synergy Horns than recent products. I have only heard the SM60F's but would guess the SH100B's to be less of a point source and behave less coherent in directivity and phase.

The latter two you could check by comparing the spec sheets and polar diagrams, available from Danley's site.

While the SH100 and 100B are early Danley products, that in no way makes them "primitive".

When a product is done well, it will retain its "presence". Both of theose products are still very good sellers.

This last week I was doing system alignment in a 450 seat performing arts theatre that has a 5.1 surround system for movies.

SH100B's for LCR and Sh100's for surrounds. I am still impressed with the sound those products produce. Not only how loud (we had real power on them), but how clean and full they are.
post #568 of 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

But 60F vs SH50 is the sound drastic? Meaning night and day or just more of?

If you discount the lower extension of the SH50 and the extra output capability of the SH50, then it gets hard.

On some material I like the SH50 better. On other material I like the SM60F better.

And it is not style of material-just that some stuff sounds better on one than the other. Once you add a sub into the mix, the low freq extension is non issue-at least for home useage. In professional usage-it depends on how muc output is needed and whether the subs are run on an aux or not that determines which way I go in a design.

I would not let "sound quality" be my deciding factor. Other things-size-price-pattern-extension-output should be the driving factors.
post #569 of 696
Ivan,

I have been emailing Scott. I figured I would give him a little while to get back because the show you were all going to but that has since passed. I never heard back from him and I sent quite a few emails. Last I looked it has been almost a month since my last email I sent him. Didn't want to be overbearing an all. I live in Australia and its hard with four children and other stuff going on to try and call when USA is awake. I call family at times back home(USA) but not at business hours. BUT this thread and forum has helped out alot.

In regards top the 100B TH crossover point, I was mainly wondering about 100hz and up. I was wondering about the crossover point because I have always missed the midbass slam that movies have with my current speakers. I know my next speaker choice will be a MASSIVE upgrade.(DSL product) But I have heard others with mains that have multiple 15's and the make mine seem like $2 headphones.

I currently have SLA's I built and they do sound very clear and clean. When I have compared to other speakers that is the first thing I notice. Thats why I was curious of the midbass slam potential of the 100B, SH50 and 60F.

When using either 100B or the SH50 can they be used in a live application such as bass guitar?

I will be slowly building my dedicated HT room and will have one of the three speakers for my L/C/R. I also like to play bass guitar which would be nice if I could use my L/R speaker to play through. Not a priority just curious if I could.
post #570 of 696
Well I start my first career job in a week, my wallet is ready for a Danley kit Actually I am pretty sure I am getting a triplet of SH50 regardless of kit or not.
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