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Danley SH-50/SH-60 for dedicated Home Theater - Page 20

post #571 of 705
Three SH50's would be nice although I might not be able to afford three of them.
post #572 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Ivan,

I have been emailing Scott. I figured I would give him a little while to get back because the show you were all going to but that has since passed. I never heard back from him and I sent quite a few emails. Last I looked it has been almost a month since my last email I sent him. Didn't want to be overbearing an all. I live in Australia and its hard with four children and other stuff going on to try and call when USA is awake. I call family at times back home(USA) but not at business hours. BUT this thread and forum has helped out alot.

In regards top the 100B TH crossover point, I was mainly wondering about 100hz and up. I was wondering about the crossover point because I have always missed the midbass slam that movies have with my current speakers. I know my next speaker choice will be a MASSIVE upgrade.(DSL product) But I have heard others with mains that have multiple 15's and the make mine seem like $2 headphones.

I currently have SLA's I built and they do sound very clear and clean. When I have compared to other speakers that is the first thing I notice. Thats why I was curious of the midbass slam potential of the 100B, SH50 and 60F.

When using either 100B or the SH50 can they be used in a live application such as bass guitar?

I will be slowly building my dedicated HT room and will have one of the three speakers for my L/C/R. I also like to play bass guitar which would be nice if I could use my L/R speaker to play through. Not a priority just curious if I could.

Scott has been on vacation for the last little bit-that may be part of the reason he has not gotten back with you. We are very busy right now and it takes time to catch up on emails. I will mention it to him.

The "midbass" of the SH10B is fine-up to the limits of the loudspeaker. Remember that almost all of the Danley line is designed for spaces much larger than home use-so there is a much greater capability there. You really have to compare the output capbilities to professional type loudspeakers.

Are there speakers with more "slam"-sure-we have plenty and lots of other people have them as well.

But how much do you really need? Consider that the SH100B will easily produce levels in the mid 120dB range at 1M. So at 2M you are looking at around 120dB. At 4M you are loooking around 115dB ish.

Is that loud enough for you? I can't say.

I would not suggest the SH50 as a bass guitar loudspeaker. The reason is that it will not go low enough (flat without low end boost) to reproduce the low notes on the bass guitar.

The SH100B will do a much better job of that. Depending on how many strings you have. But show me a regular bass guitar cabinet that can get down to 30Hz flat.

But what will it "sound like". That is a completely different situation.

All of our products are designed for as accurate reproduction of the input signal as possible,

VERY OFTEN in musical instruments-the loudspeaker system is part of the musical system, and is not very accurate-but has a particular "sound" that the musician is looking for.

Switching to a "better" loudspeaker is often a disssapointment.

Ask any Marshall user who has switched to JBL or EV drivers.

Ask any B3/Leslie 147 player who has "updated" the drivers to more hi fi drivers.

It is not long before they go back to something that gives a particular "tone".

But give it a try, Some players may like it better-other may not.

In the area of musical instruments/amps there are HUGE differences in tone, that make different people like one over the other.

A guy looking for a Fender twin type sound is simply not going to be happy with a Marshall setup-and vice versa.
post #573 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Three SH50's would be nice although I might not be able to afford three of them.

Then get a pair of SH50's or Sh60's for the sides and a SH100 for the middle.

It will have a wider coverage-be smaller and cost less and be more than capable.
post #574 of 705
Thanks Ivan about the explanation about Scott. I wasn't too worried because I am not in a rush to buy yet because I still have to save up for them. PLUS Scott normally has always been good with emails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Then get a pair of SH50's or Sh60's for the sides and a SH100 for the middle.

It will have a wider coverage-be smaller and cost less and be more than capable.

That is the conclusion I have been thinking about. Just need to save for the rest as I was originally just thinking of 60Fs for budget but then after reading more started to rethink about the SH50s.

As far as bass cabinets I have always liked a very hi-fi type sound. Meaning all the bass cabinets I have liked have been able to play music through the cabinet very cleanly. The sound as if there are just PA speakers. Now I could always build a cabinet for my 6 string bass but I just was wondering about the possibilities of not having to buy anything else for playing at home in my dedicated room.

Either way I could always try and build a "sub," for my bass guitar to go along with the SH50/60. Just a thought.

And Ivan what should I compare the SH50's against as far as the Krix lineup?

Krix is local to me and I have heard many of their lineup because they are 5 minutes away. I have heard their pro audio/cinema stuff and just wondered in regards to what you thought would be comparable.
I am guessing that a SH50 could replace one of these?
http://www.krix.com.au/Product/Detail.aspx?p=97&id=76

http://www.krix.com.au/Product/Detail.aspx?p=45&id=45
These are the two speakers I have heard from Krix quite a bit at their factory. I am not suggesting that DSL sounds anything like them I am just wondering what DSL products are competing with is all.

Once again Thanks for your input. I will be choosing the DSL speakers because I am wanting alot more than the Krix can offer but its nice to know what compares and what doesn't. They are the only thing near me and I wont get the chance to come to Georgia for atleast a few years.
post #575 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

And Ivan what should I compare the SH50's against as far as the Krix lineup?

Krix is local to me and I have heard many of their lineup because they are 5 minutes away. I have heard their pro audio/cinema stuff and just wondered in regards to what you thought would be comparable.
I am guessing that a SH50 could replace one of these?
http://www.krix.com.au/Product/Detail.aspx?p=97&id=76

http://www.krix.com.au/Product/Detail.aspx?p=45&id=45
These are the two speakers I have heard from Krix quite a bit at their factory. I am not suggesting that DSL sounds anything like them I am just wondering what DSL products are competing with is all.

Once again Thanks for your input. I will be choosing the DSL speakers because I am wanting alot more than the Krix can offer but its nice to know what compares and what doesn't. They are the only thing near me and I wont get the chance to come to Georgia for atleast a few years.

I have never heard of those loudspeakers-but that doesn't say much-especially since their target market is in a different world that I "live in".

But some thoughts from what I saw.

I didn't see any measured responses (amplitude or phase)-only numbers that mention "in room response". This means that the loudspeakers are in ground plane position and you are getting room gain.

Without any measurements-there is no way to even begin to guess at how they compare sound wise. And even then, measurements on tell part of the story. Your ears tell the rest.

So the low freq numbers suggest a lower freq response than you would get outside in a free field situation.

Also the whole concept that Danley is about is having a single point source. When the individual loudspeaker drivers are seperated (as in the link) you are going to have various "issues"-such as combfiltering and imageing.

The Danely products use real 13 ply baltic birch plywood-not MDF-which holds up MUCH longer-especially when moved around. Not much of an issue in a home setup-but very important in portable sound.
post #576 of 705
I didn't think they would compare but I figured I would ask. Danleys point source motto is exactly what I want so thats why I stopped listening to the Krix line up. Just wondered what they compete against. Maybe JBL or EAW stuff I guess.

Anyways do you guys have a link for the different protective layers you can add to your DSL speakers?

Are the finishes all flat black? Meaning if wanting black are they shiny or no?

I think once I get my pair I will use them for more than just HT.
post #577 of 705
Danley can do just about any finish you want. Have a look at some pics on their web page. I like the zebrawood.

That krix stuff looks like jbl clones. Price isn't great coming from a company I believe most haven't heard of. I don't like their in room and only +- 10 dB spec.
post #578 of 705
I didn't figure they(Krix) would be a very good comparison considering what they are aimed. PLUS the Krix I believe I could build and the price I cant justify paying. I love the fact that I would never try to tackle a DIY version of the SH's and dont mind paying more for a finished speaker.

And another quick question for everyone how do you read the sensitivty chart from DSL?

I was looking at the subs and the DTS10 was almost the same chart as the TH221. Then I looked at the TH50, DTS20 and DBH218. The DTS and DBH had a 93db roughly @20hz and the TH50 was only 90db. Am I reading these correctly?

If I am I did not think the DTS20 would be more powerful than the TH50 at 20hz. And secondly I couldn't believe how powerful the DBH is at 20hz. WOW.

SO I must be bot looking at something correctly because I cant believe that the DTS10 would be the same at 20hz as the TH221.

OK 2.83v was what I forgot. SO how do you figure out what these charts will read with suggested power to them as far as the TH's?

Either way 2.83v on the TH221 is providing roughly 90db at 15hz. Holy .....WOW.

Brandon did you ever get a chance to hear the TH221?
post #579 of 705
No, haven't heard the 221 yet. Its on my list. Hoping to one day soon to make a danley trip. I've got a week off in late august and if I decide to not do a full on vacation I'll probably head down there.

The sensitivity is what it is. The dts-10 was made to extend lower than the th50. At 20 hz the dts-10 should easily win that match. 30 or 40 hz and up is a different story. Just the way they were designed.
post #580 of 705
SO Brandon what do you think it would take to compare to one TH50 in a sealed cab?

But seeing your reviews on your older GTG thread I figured I would see your thoughts.
post #581 of 705
Not sure I understand what you mean by one th50 in a sealed cab.
post #582 of 705
Sorry. Seeing your older thread on your sub shoot out I was wondering what you thought it would take to equal the TH50 in the form of sealed subs?

I myself have one sub and am planning on building another for a matching pair. But when I read others reviews on shaking pants feeling the bass in their chest I never quite get that feeling with my current single sub.(sealed sono 2x15) I was planning on building another pair of sealed subs when the driver is finally made but these DSL type subs have me always wondering if my next sub will have me wanting for more..........again.

Cant afford it but the only thing I can think of that would not have me wanting more would be a pair of TH221 and I haven't heard ANY reviews on them.
post #583 of 705
Really depends on the sub. Let's say that sub "a" can do 130 db at a certain frequency. If sub "b" does 118 db at that same frequency it would take 4 or more of sub "b" to equal that 130 db. My math may be wrong on that so if I am correct me.
post #584 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I didn't think they would compare but I figured I would ask. Danleys point source motto is exactly what I want so thats why I stopped listening to the Krix line up. Just wondered what they compete against. Maybe JBL or EAW stuff I guess.

Anyways do you guys have a link for the different protective layers you can add to your DSL speakers?

Are the finishes all flat black? Meaning if wanting black are they shiny or no?

I think once I get my pair I will use them for more than just HT.


THe standard black is not flat or shiny-more of a textured dull finish. It is kinda like a truck bedliner type finish.

Black or white are standard colors. But you can get pretty much any finish you want-custom veneers-custom colors-stain ready (for you to apply your own stain)- paint ready (for you to apply your own paint/finish) and so forth.

They all have different prices. You can contact Scott at the office for more details.
post #585 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I didn't figure they(Krix) would be a very good comparison considering what they are aimed. PLUS the Krix I believe I could build and the price I cant justify paying. I love the fact that I would never try to tackle a DIY version of the SH's and dont mind paying more for a finished speaker.

And another quick question for everyone how do you read the sensitivty chart from DSL?

I was looking at the subs and the DTS10 was almost the same chart as the TH221. Then I looked at the TH50, DTS20 and DBH218. The DTS and DBH had a 93db roughly @20hz and the TH50 was only 90db. Am I reading these correctly?

If I am I did not think the DTS20 would be more powerful than the TH50 at 20hz. And secondly I couldn't believe how powerful the DBH is at 20hz. WOW.

SO I must be bot looking at something correctly because I cant believe that the DTS10 would be the same at 20hz as the TH221.

OK 2.83v was what I forgot. SO how do you figure out what these charts will read with suggested power to them as far as the TH's?

Either way 2.83v on the TH221 is providing roughly 90db at 15hz. Holy .....WOW.

Brandon did you ever get a chance to hear the TH221?

All of the Danley products are measured with the same input voltage 2.83V.

The impedance difference will result in different levels.

The problem with trying to use a 1 watt method is that you cannot apply 1 watt to a loudspeaker. You can only apply a voltage-the wattage is the result of the applied voltage and the point on the impedance curve.

Since the impedance is not constant, but varies (sometimes quite a lot) with freq, there is no "standard" applied wattage.

If you use the "nominal" impedance for your calculation, you could end up with some errors in the end result.

Of course there are people who will disagree, but in reality sensitivity is a measurement of how sensitive a particular loudspeaker is to a applied voltage.

Effeciency is a totally different animal. It is how loud a particular loudspeaker is for a particular wattage. And the graphs would not look pretty-because keeping the wattage equal is not an easy thing to do.

But people just dimiss that and wrongly "assume" that the wattage is staying the same-but it is not-at least in any tests I am aware of.

I have never seen a response graph for a loudspeaker in which the wattage stayed the same.

But in general-if you are comparing an 8 ohm loudspeaker to a 4 ohm, the readings for the 4 ohm cabinet could be increased by 3dB to make them more "equal"-if that is what you are looking for.

Of course you also have to look at the impedance curves to see what the actual impedance is at a particular freq.

The more you look at trying to get "accurate" comparisoms, the harder it gets-especially if you don't have the curves or the measurement conditions.
post #586 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Really depends on the sub. Let's say that sub "a" can do 130 db at a certain frequency. If sub "b" does 118 db at that same frequency it would take 4 or more of sub "b" to equal that 130 db. My math may be wrong on that so if I am correct me.

OK make sense to me but I could be wrong myself. When I saw your video on youtube of your sub shootout I didn't realize how big your sub was. WOW. Then the TH50 was pretty small also. When people talked about the sheer impact of volume that one 15" can do I then start thinking about having a TH sub myself. I used to have the THT and loved most parts of it. Now I am guessing that the TH50 will out perform a THT and thats what starts me thinking about having enough power for my wants. I was just thinking that with a similar 15" in a externally the same size cabinet sealed how many more would I need to perform as well as the TH50 in the same frequency area?

Probably to hard of a question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

THe standard black is not flat or shiny-more of a textured dull finish. It is kinda like a truck bedliner type finish.

Black or white are standard colors. But you can get pretty much any finish you want-custom veneers-custom colors-stain ready (for you to apply your own stain)- paint ready (for you to apply your own paint/finish) and so forth.

They all have different prices. You can contact Scott at the office for more details.

Thanks. I finally saw some options on your website. They all look pretty awesome. Loved the white TH50. I am mainly just thinking of a some what waterproof coating is all. I figure most of the time my stuff will be behind a AT screen. But every once in awhile I will take the mains out for backyard listening. I would never leave them in the rain or anything but living right next to the ocean can some times have a drizzle or two. Then there is the salt through out the air. SO just wanted to make sure of a pretty robust finish is all. I am sure your standard would do the trick but just wanted to mention my concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

All of the Danley products are measured with the same input voltage 2.83V.

The impedance difference will result in different levels.

The problem with trying to use a 1 watt method is that you cannot apply 1 watt to a loudspeaker. You can only apply a voltage-the wattage is the result of the applied voltage and the point on the impedance curve.

Since the impedance is not constant, but varies (sometimes quite a lot) with freq, there is no "standard" applied wattage.

If you use the "nominal" impedance for your calculation, you could end up with some errors in the end result.

Of course there are people who will disagree, but in reality sensitivity is a measurement of how sensitive a particular loudspeaker is to a applied voltage.

Effeciency is a totally different animal. It is how loud a particular loudspeaker is for a particular wattage. And the graphs would not look pretty-because keeping the wattage equal is not an easy thing to do.

But people just dimiss that and wrongly "assume" that the wattage is staying the same-but it is not-at least in any tests I am aware of.

I have never seen a response graph for a loudspeaker in which the wattage stayed the same.

But in general-if you are comparing an 8 ohm loudspeaker to a 4 ohm, the readings for the 4 ohm cabinet could be increased by 3dB to make them more "equal"-if that is what you are looking for.

Of course you also have to look at the impedance curves to see what the actual impedance is at a particular freq.

The more you look at trying to get "accurate" comparisoms, the harder it gets-especially if you don't have the curves or the measurement conditions.

Yah I figured that when seeing the impedance "wave," it was alot more than what I was looking at. I was just curious how you can figure out what some of the TH's maximum performance would be going by the charts given?

Going by 2.83v I was amazed at what the DTS20, DBH218 could do at 20hz. But what numbers need to be applied to figure out maximum performance sensitivity chart?

I know a DTS20 and DBH218 wont keep up with the TH221 from 20hz, I think, but I just dont know how to figure. But I do know that it has been mentioned that a single Th221 will be the same as 3 or 4 TH50's.

And does the DBH218LC look just like the DBH218?
post #587 of 705
You also have to figure that the dts is limited to about 1000 watts where the 221 can handle A LOT more power.
post #588 of 705
Thats why I thought the TH221 could probably do what the DTS10 could in a home environment but above 20hz it might perform alittle better. LOL
post #589 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

OK make sense to me but I could be wrong myself. When I saw your video on youtube of your sub shootout I didn't realize how big your sub was. WOW. Then the TH50 was pretty small also. When people talked about the sheer impact of volume that one 15" can do I then start thinking about having a TH sub myself. I used to have the THT and loved most parts of it. Now I am guessing that the TH50 will out perform a THT and thats what starts me thinking about having enough power for my wants. I was just thinking that with a similar 15" in a externally the same size cabinet sealed how many more would I need to perform as well as the TH50 in the same frequency area?

Probably to hard of a question.



Thanks. I finally saw some options on your website. They all look pretty awesome. Loved the white TH50. I am mainly just thinking of a some what waterproof coating is all. I figure most of the time my stuff will be behind a AT screen. But every once in awhile I will take the mains out for backyard listening. I would never leave them in the rain or anything but living right next to the ocean can some times have a drizzle or two. Then there is the salt through out the air. SO just wanted to make sure of a pretty robust finish is all. I am sure your standard would do the trick but just wanted to mention my concerns.


Yah I figured that when seeing the impedance "wave," it was alot more than what I was looking at. I was just curious how you can figure out what some of the TH's maximum performance would be going by the charts given?

Going by 2.83v I was amazed at what the DTS20, DBH218 could do at 20hz. But what numbers need to be applied to figure out maximum performance sensitivity chart?

I know a DTS20 and DBH218 wont keep up with the TH221 from 20hz, I think, but I just dont know how to figure. But I do know that it has been mentioned that a single Th221 will be the same as 3 or 4 TH50's.

And does the DBH218LC look just like the DBH218?

A sealed and a tappped horn are 2 very different animals. Given the same size cabinet-it would take a number of sealed units to equal a TH50-in its intended response range.

Down low (say below 20Hz) a sealed box may start to have an advantage-because the rolloff is slower than the tapped horn. You trade one thing for another.

The standard finish would be fine for what you are talking about. The finish is pretty much like truck bedliner-except designed for wood-so it sticks better on wood. It is basically a plastic coating that wraps the entire cabinet without any seams.

You can get an idea of max levels at a particular freq by remembering a couple of simple math ideas.

20dB = 100 watts and 30dB = 1000 watts.

So if a loudspeaker has a sensitivity of 100dB at a particular freq and a power handling of 100 watts, you add 20 dB to that and you get 120dB. A 1000 watt power capacity will give you 130dB.

Double power (or half) is a 3 db difference. So the same loudspeaker has a power capacity of 400 watts, that would be a 26dB rise. 20db for 100 watts, then another 3dB to get 200 watts and another 3db for 400 watts.

If it has a capacity of 500 watts, then it would be a 27dB rise. 30dB for 1000 watts and then -3dB for 1/2 of that power-or 27dB.

Those basics should get you pretty close to what you are looking for.

The DBH218LC lools pretty much the same as the regular 218-except that it is either 15" deeper or taller-depending on how you configure the exit.

The regular 218 only has a single exit on the narrow side.
post #590 of 705
Isn't all that math for 1m distances ? Don't you still have to compensate for the listening position distance ? Also does it really scale up linearly like that or you get compression at higher SPLs ?
post #591 of 705
When do you plan on doing the measurement testing on the new DBH218LC? Im waiting to see the graphs before I committ to two.
post #592 of 705
With 1000 watts that is 30db. SO with 4000watts does that mean 36db?

Seeing the TH221 it would be amazing if the sub could actually do 110db at 10hz. WOW. But I am sure there is also xmax and compression values involved. Although this is all outside also and no room gain yet.

I also look forward to hearing more about the new DBH218LC. I want to see how Kutlow places them in his room if he does get a pair.
post #593 of 705
SPL = 10log(wattage)
post #594 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

When do you plan on doing the measurement testing on the new DBH218LC? Im waiting to see the graphs before I committ to two.

That is on my "to do" list, but I have more pressing things in front of it right now.

Regarding basic listening tests the LC version goes quite a bit lower, and appears to have an overall higher sensitivity-but I am not commiting to that right now-I will let the measurements prove or disprove that statement.

It is easy to get your ears confused from time to time.
post #595 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

With 1000 watts that is 30db. SO with 4000watts does that mean 36db?

Seeing the TH221 it would be amazing if the sub could actually do 110db at 10hz. WOW. But I am sure there is also xmax and compression values involved. Although this is all outside also and no room gain yet.

I also look forward to hearing more about the new DBH218LC. I want to see how Kutlow places them in his room if he does get a pair.

Yes 4000 watts would be a 36dB gain.

Yes out of band at full power is not always a linear thing-so I can't say for sure how loud it would be able to get at a freq that is more than an octave below rated response.

But when you add in room gain, it could be very interesting.
post #596 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post
That is on my "to do" list, but I have more pressing things in front of it right now.

Regarding basic listening tests the LC version goes quite a bit lower, and appears to have an overall higher sensitivity-but I am not commiting to that right now-I will let the measurements prove or disprove that statement.

It is easy to get your ears confused from time to time.
I understand. If you think of it after you complete the test please let me know . In my demo the DBH218LC sounded great!
post #597 of 705
Kutlow now that you have had some time to spend with the Danley and Crest what are your impressions ? I am heavily leaning towards a Danley and Bryston setup when I can afford it.
post #598 of 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Kutlow now that you have had some time to spend with the Danley and Crest what are your impressions ? I am heavily leaning towards a Danley and Bryston setup when I can afford it.

I really like it alot. With this types of amps you have to have them located out of the room because of the fan noise. Other than that they are great.

My theater is shut down once again because I sold my projector again. Im waiting on the next 3D Generation PJ'S to come out. In the meantime Im going to sell my 3 DTS 10'S. I just returned from out of state for medical issues with my back. So next up is 2 DBH218LC I think.
post #599 of 705
I hope you didn't hurt your back lugging the DTS-10s around
post #600 of 705
Where will you be pacing the DBH's in your HT room? Center left and center right?
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