AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › 2 Channel Audio › Do i need an external dac with HK3490 + Vienna Bach Speakers
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Do i need an external dac with HK3490 + Vienna Bach Speakers  

post #1 of 146
1/30/11 at 9:31pm
Thread Starter 
I have been bitten by the audio bug over the past month. It got worse after I bought a pair of Vienna Acoustics Grand Bach Speakers at throwaway prices at BB. The speakers are currently powered by a HK3490.

The music comes either from my $50 Sony DVD player
or my squeezebox receiver (both using digital connections to the HK3490).

I am really enjoying listening to music with the speakers and the HK3490 but I was wondering if i am missing something "significant" by not having a dedicated DAC ($300-500)?

My other possibility
Buy a decent bluray player (eg NAD T557 going at $300 ) + a squeezebox touch (supposedly it has a decent dac too).

I mostly listen to music (as far as video goes in addition to the dvd player i am using a CRT tv...i am just waiting it for it die)

Thanks.

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 146
1/31/11 at 10:49am
No, you're not missing anything. About the least useful thing one could do with $300-500 in your situation is to spend it on a DAC.
post #3 of 146
2/2/11 at 5:12pm
Buy yourself a few hundred dollars worth of music instead.
post #4 of 146
2/2/11 at 7:57pm
Thread Starter 
wow those are damning opinions on DAC's. So, i will lay off.

Regarding buying music- the leakage has begun. I never cared for jazz, but after buying these speakers i am really enjoying listening to jazz. Strangely, hard rock not so much. Maybe its not the speakers but something to do with entering the middle ages. :-)
post #5 of 146
2/2/11 at 9:25pm
The guy has a $50 dvd player for cds and you guys tell him thumbs up? That's hilarious!
post #6 of 146
2/2/11 at 10:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

The guy has a $50 dvd player for cds and you guys tell him thumbs up? That's hilarious!

Perhaps you can help out the OP with brand and model suggestions for a change.
post #7 of 146
2/2/11 at 10:51pm
Not on your life geek. Anyone around here trying to be helpful like that gets slapped down.
post #8 of 146
2/3/11 at 12:46am
Does it make a difference if he has a 5000K CD Player? Isn't the HK3490 doing all the audio processing anyway? So it doesn't matter if he has a $50 player or a $5000 player. Am I right?
post #9 of 146
2/3/11 at 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabbu1 View Post

wow those are damning opinions on DAC's. So, i will lay off.

For your life (well, maybe for some of your lives...lol), I will not get into this with you guys again. But here's what strikes me as interesting: I hear all the time, that you guys flock to these threads, and bully people around about "all DACs sound the same", etc...and that you claim to do it in the name of "educating" the newbies, and protecting them from charlatans who would suggest they waste their money on gear they can't hear.

So...you come in and sway them in your direction, and that is different how? That's why I quoted the OP; here's a guy clearly saying "wow, I wanted to try it...you talked me out of it".

OP, I won't tell you it'll make a difference or won't make a difference. Obviously there are people who think they do, or the external DAC business would be out of business. What makes me sad is you won't decide for yourself. These guys say "don't try one" or "they all sound the same", and you just shrug your shoulders? Completely up to you, but why not try it for yourself? $300-500, like you said...if that's your budget; there are places you can buy from that have 30-day return policies, and worse-case scenario...you sell it for $50 less than you paid for it, and you spent $50 to audition it and find out for yourself.

If you don't hear a difference, then you'll know. But don't just listen to these guys. FWIW, they don't think amps sound any different either; you gonna keep the same amp forever?

CD
post #10 of 146
2/3/11 at 6:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Not on your life geek. Anyone around here trying to be helpful like that gets slapped down.

No, anyone who thinks price has some major influence on audible SQ gets slapped down and rightfully so. Everyone here is being helpful you are just being the typical "its inexpensive so it cant be that great" poster.
post #11 of 146
2/3/11 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

For your life (well, maybe for some of your lives...lol), I will not get into this with you guys again. But here's what strikes me as interesting: I hear all the time, that you guys flock to these threads, and bully people around about "all DACs sound the same", etc...and that you claim to do it in the name of "educating" the newbies, and protecting them from charlatans who would suggest they waste their money on gear they can't hear.

So...you come in and sway them in your direction, and that is different how? That's why I quoted the OP; here's a guy clearly saying "wow, I wanted to try it...you talked me out of it".

OP, I won't tell you it'll make a difference or won't make a difference. Obviously there are people who think they do, or the external DAC business would be out of business. What makes me sad is you won't decide for yourself. These guys say "don't try one" or "they all sound the same", and you just shrug your shoulders? Completely up to you, but why not try it for yourself? $300-500, like you said...if that's your budget; there are places you can buy from that have 30-day return policies, and worse-case scenario...you sell it for $50 less than you paid for it, and you spent $50 to audition it and find out for yourself.

If you don't hear a difference, then you'll know. But don't just listen to these guys. FWIW, they don't think amps sound any different either; you gonna keep the same amp forever?

CD

Looking forward to hearing about your personal experienceses with different DAC's and amps under ABX conditions where you were able to pick one unit over the other.
post #12 of 146
2/3/11 at 6:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

Looking forward to hearing about your personal experienceses with different DAC's and amps under ABX conditions where you were able to pick one unit over the other.

Strawman, strawman, strawman! Or whatever the hell you guys are always carrying-on about...lol. I simply tell the OP to listen and try it for himself, and you challenge me to produce ABX results from various DACs. Nice try slick; keep on waiting.

You see what you're dealing with here OP? You see who's advising you? Now is where any of you are welcome to explain to the group, the error of suggesting the guy try, listen, and decide for himself?

CD
post #13 of 146
2/3/11 at 6:39am
Quote:


For your life (well, maybe for some of your lives...lol), I will not get into this with you guys again.

And yet, here you come. Are you really a hypocrite, or do you just play one on the Internet?

Quote:


What makes me sad is you won't decide for yourself.

Of course we decide for ourselves. The difference is that we know how to decide for ourselves without fooling ourselves.
post #14 of 146
2/3/11 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Of course we decide for ourselves. The difference is that we know how to decide for ourselves without fooling ourselves.

I was talking about the OP deciding for himself. Is reading comprehension not strong among your group? Is it more of that strawman thing? I say one thing, you repeat it back to mean another.

CD
post #15 of 146
2/3/11 at 7:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Strawman, strawman, strawman! Or whatever the hell you guys are always carrying-on about...lol. I simply tell the OP to listen and try it for himself, and you challenge me to produce ABX results from various DACs. Nice try slick; keep on waiting.

You see what you're dealing with here OP? You see who's advising you? Now is where any of you are welcome to explain to the group, the error of suggesting the guy try, listen, and decide for himself?

CD

You are calling me slick? That is funny. Of course the OP should try everything. He should just do it right.

As for you, the only way anyone could make the claims you do is from some experiences you had. I assume you have had them or you would not feel this strongly about the subject. So, tell us your findings and how you came to these conclusions.
post #16 of 146
2/3/11 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Is it more of that strawman thing? I say one thing, you repeat it back to mean another.

CD

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Strawman, strawman, strawman! Or whatever the hell you guys are always carrying-on about...
CD

This is fascinating.

Rather then educate himself about the "strawman" logical fallacy, he just throws the term around, using it (he thinks) as an argument.

Pretty much the same as someone would do when they throw around marketing terms from DAC vendors.

I'm not sure why anyone would take advice from people who refuse to educate themselves.
post #17 of 146
2/3/11 at 7:22am
Thanks again guys. Calling names, pulling the "fallacy" cards; you guys ought to know.

I give; I was always told don't try to argue with crazy people. I tell the guy to try for himself, and even that's wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

Of course the OP should try everything. He should just do it right.

That's not what was done, and the posts prove it.

"No, you're not missing anything. About the least useful thing one could do with $300-500 in your situation is to spend it on a DAC."

"Buy yourself a few hundred dollars worth of music instead."

Your side just told him not to do it, and he actually acquiesced. Then you start attacking me.

See, you attack our side for wanting people to act as we do; most of "us" don't say that at all. We simply say "trust your own ears". You guys are the ones who say "no...your ears suck; just do it our way".

Again, enuff; man, do you guys flock to these threads. Hard to compete with your numbers. Good luck OP.

CD
post #18 of 146
2/3/11 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I give; I was always told don't try to argue with crazy people.

I am sorry. Who is arguing? It seems you are the one running into threads insulting people. Besides, an argument usualy needs 2 sides. One of the sides here seems to be that DACs and for that matter cables when compared under proper conditions arent decernable. Whether someone wants to spend money on such things for prestiege or just because it makes them feel better its their money. Most people just want he simple answer and that is impossible to give on AVS these days because there are too many people chming in who dont know what they are talking about. Doing comparisons dosent work if someone does not know how to compare.

More importantly, who appointed you the protector of the subjectivists? If you are so concerned about people making thier own descisions then perhaps we should ask all of these posters looking for info (you know scientific info without actually doing the hard part) if they want you interfering with people answering their questions.

We get it. you think there is a difference in ____ gear and most people here are mean and insane and obviously have some agenda agaisnt the industry, or people spending money or whatver you have come up with.

The problem is that you going around acting like this (acting like you have in the past) isnt hurting the crediblity of anyone but yourself. You are the one that has insulted people and made childish remarks.
post #19 of 146
2/3/11 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

...Your side just told him not to do it, and he actually acquiesced. Then you start attacking me.

See, you attack our side for wanting people to act as we do; most of "us" don't say that at all. We simply say "trust your own ears".

What you don't get is that there is no "your side" or "our side"

There really is no debate. Just because there are a few audiophiles running around out there singing the praises of wires and DACS doesn't make it a debate. Facts are facts. And all the BS to the contrary doesn't change the facts.

If anybody can tell a sq difference between DACS then one of them is broken.

And for somebody who makes statements about trusting your ears, you show reluctance to put a blindfold on and actually put them to the test.
post #20 of 146
2/3/11 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

What you don't get is that there is no "your side" or "our side". There really is no debate.

I take back, and defend you guys against anyone saying you have no sense of humor. There really is no debate; you guys are hysterical.

CD
post #21 of 146
2/3/11 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I take back, and defend you guys against anyone saying you have no sense of humor. There really is no debate; you guys are hysterical.

CD

There you go again with "you guys" You really should get some help with that paranoia problem you seem to have. Watch out!!! "us guys" are watching you
post #22 of 146
2/3/11 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

There you go again with "you guys" You really should get some help with that paranoia problem you seem to have. Watch out!!! "us guys" are watching you

Must be nice to live in a world with such absolutes? There is no debate...because you say so. There are no sides...because you say so. I'm just paranoid...because you say so. All gear sounds the same...because you say so...lol.

Well, at least you have graphs and charts to back up that claim; so where are your statistics and studies to back up the others? I say my eyes...another "faulty" instrument of us humans...tell me enthusiasts and scientists have been having this same discussion for 50 years. So where's your DBT to the contrary?

CD
post #23 of 146
2/3/11 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

OP, I won't tell you it'll make a difference or won't make a difference.

You won't because you don't know. You can find out yourself and then post something about it. Until then, must you waste the forum pages with your usual babbling?

Blah blah blah... bully... blah blah blah...I'll leave you guys...blah blah blah...I won't walk away...blah blah blah...bully...blah blah blah...I don't know the first thing about EE...blah blah blah...live and let live...blah blah blah...bully...blah blah blah...
post #24 of 146
2/3/11 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Must be nice to live in a world with such absolutes? There is no debate...because you say so. There are no sides...because you say so. I'm just paranoid...because you say so. All gear sounds the same...because you say so...lol.

Well, at least you have graphs and charts to back up that claim; so where are your statistics and studies to back up the others? I say my eyes...another "faulty" instrument of us humans...tell me enthusiasts and scientists have been having this same discussion for 50 years. So where's your DBT to the contrary?

CD

Links to those tests have been provided to you already is the other threads you infect. Here's a great post from somebody that is spot on. Too bad you don't have the background to understand what it says:

Originally Posted by xianthax View Post
I think half this argument could come down to the definition of a 'DAC'. As an EE to me a DAC is a single IC that converts a digital format to an analog voltage or current and its associated reconstruction filter (and perhaps current to voltage converter depending on topology).

However half the "high end DACs" people are yapping around aren't DACs, they are signal processors.

They take in a digital signal, feed it through a DSP doing who knows what with 15 different "digital filter options" and only then hand to the real DAC IC to be converted to analog.

Reference the Berkeley Thread awhile back. Internal pictures were posted of it and its got a Analog Devices SHARC DSP on board, i mean that series is used in full surround sound decoding in home theater receivers, 8 in 8 out pro level signal processors, pro mixing consoles, etc and its sitting in a 2 channel "DAC" doing god knows what to the signal. If it were just a matter of passing the audio through you can do that with a $2 micro-controller, they clearly put that DSP in there to do something.

The actual DAC in that $5000 box in a $10 off the shelf Analog Devices IC.

So really the question isn't can you hear the difference between the $10 DAC in the $5000 "DAC" vs the $10 DAC in the $500 home theater receiver or $200 USB sound card....its extremely unlikely you can unless one of em screws up the design royally. The real question is can you hear whatever else the $5000 "DAC" is doing to the signal? Maybe? Probably? who knows, we'd have to actually figure out what the thing is doing to the poor signal.
post #25 of 146
2/3/11 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

You won't because you don't know. You can find out yourself and then post something about it. Until then, must you waste the forum pages with your usual babbling?

Blah blah blah... bully... blah blah blah...I'll leave you guys...blah blah blah...I won't walk away...blah blah blah...bully...blah blah blah...I don't know the first thing about EE...blah blah blah...live and let live...blah blah blah...bully...blah blah blah...

Kettle Black...meet geek.

CD
post #26 of 146
2/3/11 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by htcritic View Post

Links to those tests have been provided to you already is the other threads you infect. Here's a great post from somebody that is spot on. Too bad you don't have the background to understand what it says:

Originally Posted by xianthax View Post
I think half this argument could come down to the definition of a 'DAC'. As an EE to me a DAC is a single IC that converts a digital format to an analog voltage or current and its associated reconstruction filter (and perhaps current to voltage converter depending on topology).

However half the "high end DACs" people are yapping around aren't DACs, they are signal processors.

They take in a digital signal, feed it through a DSP doing who knows what with 15 different "digital filter options" and only then hand to the real DAC IC to be converted to analog.

Reference the Berkeley Thread awhile back. Internal pictures were posted of it and its got a Analog Devices SHARC DSP on board, i mean that series is used in full surround sound decoding in home theater receivers, 8 in 8 out pro level signal processors, pro mixing consoles, etc and its sitting in a 2 channel "DAC" doing god knows what to the signal. If it were just a matter of passing the audio through you can do that with a $2 micro-controller, they clearly put that DSP in there to do something.

The actual DAC in that $5000 box in a $10 off the shelf Analog Devices IC.

So really the question isn't can you hear the difference between the $10 DAC in the $5000 "DAC" vs the $10 DAC in the $500 home theater receiver or $200 USB sound card....its extremely unlikely you can unless one of em screws up the design royally. The real question is can you hear whatever else the $5000 "DAC" is doing to the signal? Maybe? Probably? who knows, we'd have to actually figure out what the thing is doing to the poor signal.

I saw that; what...need to bring it over from the DAC comparison thread? This is honestly the funniest post of all. So which is it guys..."most DACs have filters and DSPs that alter the sound", or "DBTs show people can't hear a difference"?

I really am walking away now; if for no other reason...been there, done that, and you guys are too easy. Now...go ahead and run me down, and slap hands in a virtual high-five...like you just won the Super Bowl (that's a big, football game guys)...because I have better things to do than continue this "non-debate".

CD
post #27 of 146
2/3/11 at 9:31am
Unfortunately you are not going to get a lot of opinions because your thread has been hijacked by the zealots. We are all ignorant and wrong. They are enlightened and right...., They have wasted their time digging up "proof" to dazzle you with. They'll post 15 replies telling you I'm wrong and that is OK.


With that being said... Try a DAC. You might see an improvement. I am not familiar with your receiver, but that is why a company like Emotiva has a in home trial period. Get thier DAC, try it out. If you like it keep it. If you don't notice am improvement with your system in your room then send it back, and I beleive all you are out is shipping back to them.

More music is an excellent suggestion also.

Good Luck and Enjoy the music.
post #28 of 146
2/3/11 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by brubacca View Post

Unfortunately you are not going to get a lot of opinions because your thread has been hijacked by the zealots. We are all ignorant and wrong. They are enlightened and right...., They have wasted their time digging up "proof" to dazzle you with. They'll post 15 replies telling you I'm wrong and that is OK.


With that being said... Try a DAC. You might see an improvement. I am not familiar with your receiver, but that is why a company like Emotiva has a in home trial period. Get thier DAC, try it out. If you like it keep it. If you don't notice am improvement with your system in your room then send it back, and I beleive all you are out is shipping back to them.

More music is an excellent suggestion also.

Good Luck and Enjoy the music.

Heretic! You forgot to provide links to 30 year-old studies...that give you the right to suggest the OP should try and decide for himself.

CD
post #29 of 146
2/3/11 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

...I really am walking away now...

Do you ever make an honest statement?
post #30 of 146
2/3/11 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I give...
Again, enuff...

CD

Then...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

I really am walking away now...

CD

Then...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Heretic! You forgot to provide links to 30 year-old studies...that give you the right to suggest the OP should try and decide for himself.

CD
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: 2 Channel Audio
This thread is locked  

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › 2 Channel Audio › Do i need an external dac with HK3490 + Vienna Bach Speakers