Do i need an external dac with HK3490 + Vienna Bach Speakers - Page 4  

The reason YOU are asked if you have done the testing is not because everyone else has done the testing already and now they expect you to run the same gauntlet in order to demonstrate your similar worthiness or credibility. It's asked of you because YOU are one of those who is making the claim for audible difference, which flies in the face of the available evidence. They aren't.

And the evidence is more fundamental than just the randomly quoted, 15-30 year old foreign DBTs you like to focus upon for derision. It's the decades of study which has examined the ability and limitations of the human ear. Included in that study is an understanding of what magnitude of change must be present before the human ear can detect audible differences. The understanding of JND, just noticeable difference, which should be a familiar term by now.

All properly functioning DACs and which are also straight DACs (i.e., apart from the occasional ones which intentionally introduce some deviation to the audio signal, as xianthax and mcnarus were referring to earlier), despite the difference brands & models, each using some different parts and supposedly presenting unique design concepts, all produce an audio result that falls below or under the threshold of the best human ear to detect any difference in output these various DAC models might possibly produce.

And again, just to be absolutely clear. No one is saying that these DACs will measure absolutely identical. But they will measure so very close enough that they are identical for all practical purposes. The practical purposes which include even the best, most experienced audiophile ear in the best audiophile room and with the bestest of best speakers.

As has been stated many times, digital to analog conversion is a solved problem and has been for a long time. And the possible reasons as to why people are often able to hear differences, even sometimes large differences, under uncontrolled circumstances has also been known for a long time too. And we've covered that ground time and time again, so I won't elaborate again there.

Nice argument, but if really you want it to sink in, you really need to consider using ellipses, and lots of them

Seriously, well said. I'm not sure how this can be misunderstood, but we'll find out.

The SQB Touch has a much improved DAC and Analog out section vs the old Squeeze box products. I spoke to one of the lead engineers at Logitech about it at length. Even they admit the older Squeeze Box products were lacking. DAC's can be implemented poorly.

Do yourself a favor and pick up a Cambridge or Benchmark DAC from a vendor that will let you trial it for 30 days in home and a no questions/hassle free return/rma.

Have someone switch it out randomly with your H/K. Form your own opinion. If you can follow a bouncing ball and it happens to sound better to you and it happens to be an external DAC then knock yourself out.

My hunch is you will end up with a random 50/50 ish sampling which means you were simply guessing.

Well...I better tuck tail between my legs, after such a scathing retort. I use lots of ellipses huh? Ouch...that really gets to me; and it's the first time your side has mentioned that in lieu of an argument.

Listen...CI makes a good argument; I understand burden of proof. After all, I did graduate high school. It's just the wrong argument.

I say "I think I hear a difference"; let me repeat that for those of you who are a little slow on the uptake...and use some more ellipses. I think I hear a difference. So the only person I'm speaking for is me; so the only person I have "burden of proof" to is...you guessed it...ellipses and all...me!

If I were ever to say "you'll hear a difference", then I would expect the ABX/DBT police to be all over me. Honestly guys; I have stronger words, but I know geek goes running to TOS every time he gets bested in an argument...so let me just say "I don't find your reasoning to be that strong".

I've liked debating with some of your cohorts; mostly this is boring.

CD

For the love of God, Mom and apple pie, CD. If nothing else, please please stop saying you're gonna leave a thread, that you're done, not coming back because you've grown bored, you've "won", no more to say, etc., because you've demonstrated dozens of times that you simply CANNOT keep yourself away. Learn at least that much about yourself from participating in these threads.


Thanks. Actually, I'm a recovering ellipses abuser myself. Takes all my will power to keep from going apeshit crazy using 'em. Damn, how I love those things.

As far as CDs participation in these types of threads go, I could respond each time with something **I think** could be potentially useful to him, but manage to successfully stop myself from doing so 98% of the time. It appears to be a fruitless endeavor to try, really. He's seems set on permanent kamikaze combat mode now.

Now, unlike him, I'm done with this thread. really.

I guess you missed this at the end of the sentence. It was meant as a joke.

Say, Audio Circle or Audio Asylum just to name couple out of many out there, you will love it and be loved. Bon Voyage.

+1
Try a DAC...I bought an Emo XDA and very much enjoy what it does. It sounds better then my 3 year old pre/pro did for stereo. I bought it as a pre-amp as well, considering both of my sources are digital in nature now anyway. As was mentioned above, if you don't like it, or hear an improvement, send it back. If you are like the majority of the crowd here, you will be buying/swapping audio equipment for the rest of your natural life. Bottom line, it's your money, spend it how YOU want to.

Well of course it's his money and he should spend it how he wants to. And frankly I don't disagree with a thing you posted even though some might label me from the "other side"

I wouldn't presume to tell you that you didn't hear a difference. I might enjoy a discussion with you as to why I believe you heard it and what the factors were that contributed to that perception. Or not if you have no desire to engage into a dialog. But as regards the OP I also want to let them know that there is a community that feels that there is nothing to be gained from different DACS, etc. And explain the reasons why that is. That they happen to be built on science and testing rather than just sighted listening is valid to bring up. Just as it's valid for you to say "I just heard a difference and I'm keeping the DAC"

I don't believe that makes me a zealot as the previous poster said. Nor do I think he is. I've never undstood why an argument has to become personal in nature. Can't it be enough to state a postion without the need to derride those holding an opposite point of view? I appreicated the fact you were able to do it without the paragraph long personal insult that Brubacca felt obliged to insert. It's also interesting to me that he doesn't even see how insulting it was. But it appears that you did as you were able to post without the insults. Congrats.

I don't believe you'd be missing anything. If you want to dramatically change the performance of your system, either change your speakers or modify your listening space. Provided your other gear is functioning properly and operating within its tolerances, endless swapping of pre-amps, amps, transports and DACs in-and-out of your system is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

However, your biases and expectations play a key role here. Having a dedicated DAC in your system may by the placebo that ends your journey along the upgrade path. There are reasons to own and use a particular piece of kit versus another, and those reasons may have nothing to do with performance.

If we're getting back on track, and actually offering advice to the OP...for the record...I completely agree with the notion that the most dramatic improvements can be made with upgrades at speaker, and treatments for the room. In general, I try to live by the rule-of-thumb that at least 50% of your system budget should go toward speakers, and/or that you should buy the best speakers you can afford ("best", not always meaning most-expensive of course) and worry about the rest as you can.

So it's always good advice. What I object to...obviously...is the idea that people can't be trusted to decide about DACs, or amps, or other electronics for themselves. I get shouted down...a lot...because people say "we don't want newbies listening to your unsubstantiated advice". I say all I ever tell people is try it for yourself. The objectivists say "that's still wrong...because by telling them to just take a listen, you're encouraging them to audition the wrong way".

I'm sorry; I've made my peace in the world...and I've always maintained you guys are free to live as you feel, and post what you like. But this is the height of arrogance and hypocrisy to me. I know I get accused of twisting arguments, and all that fallacy bullcrap...but I don't see how this is anything more than, in essence, saying "don't listen to a guy like CDLehner...he has no scientific proof on his side. And no, don't trust yourself to decide either; your ears and eyes will deceive you". No, here's what you do...OP soliciting advice...listen to me, because I'm the scientist...lol.

OP: "Oh...so you've done a lot of DBTs, and you've determined there's no difference"?

OB: "Uh no...I read a lot of studies though".

I mean, I don't really even see you guys saying this: "hey OP, try for yourself...but at least do it the right way; arrange a DBT/ABX or whatever". I still might not believe in that approach, but at least you're telling people to give it a shot. As you know, I've been in the middle of a lot of these threads...and all I ever see is "no...don't try that; it doesn't make a difference. Why? I said so...and don't argue with me, because I'm right...I have these studies".

CD

So OK. But then you go back into your obnoxious attack dog mode. You really are a blight on this landscape, you know.

That's right. The knowledgeable people here understand that casual comparisons almost inevitably lead to erroneous conclusions. You keep telling them, "Hey, go ahead and make the same dumb mistakes I did!"

No one should listen to CDLehner. He is expounding on empirical questions, for which science has discovered quite solid answers, and he does not know what he is talking about, nor has he shown any interest in learning.

Conducting a reliable DBT is not simple, especially for people without the relevant technical background. (And if you're even entertaining the idea that DACs might sound different, you lack the relevant technical background.) So advising them to try one is probably pointless. Besides, as a general rule, we do not have to conduct experiments for ourselves in order to learn from science. What sets people like you apart is your utter unwillingness to learn from the scientific work of others. What sets you in particular apart is your willingness to repeatedly demonstrate a profound level of scientific illiteracy on a public forum.

I'm not going back and forth with you Mac; obviously you haven't found peace. I'll give you a chance to edit your post. Otherwise, it's off to TOS. You have no right to say such things as

You really are a blight on this landscape, you know or

No one should listen to CDLehner...he does not know what he is talking about

You're entitled to your opinion, but not to attack me personally. Now...like I said; I think you should edit it.

CD

I understand...but then what you're saying is "the only way to test gear is DBT/ABX"...and then "a reliable DBT/ABX is all but impossible to conduct [for the average enthusiast]". I don't disagree; but where does that leave people?? Stuck?

No, no; just listen to you, right? OK, let me be more fair: if I'm interested in gear...how should I choose?

CD

But it's OK for you to say we are arrogant hypocrites?

Yes; I didn't say you were an arrogant hypocrite. I said to feel a certain way is to act as an arrogant hypocrite. I can express an opinion. You're not supposed to single anyone out. I never said anyone in particular was an arrogant hypocrite; but mcnarus singled me out (and with such vitriol. I wonder why he took what I said so personally?)

CD

So what...you're saying it's ok to the part that I agree with you on; but it's an attack, because I disagree with some of the rest?

Seriously my man; just tone down the rhetoric and don't make it personal. I'm not really posting here anymore. You guys are free to talk all the stats and specs you want (although it has nothing to do with the OP...so I don't know why the mods don't step in. They don't seem to enforce that OT thing very much, except when it suits them).

I just...foolishly I suppose...wanted to let you guys know that we see eye to eye on some things; speakers and room being very important...and I reiterated not so much on others.

CD

Short memory span, CDLehner? --> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post19946226

Not accusation, it's observation.


You may advise OP on things you understand. If you kept trying to advise someone on math after posting 1+1=2.5, you will hear something form others and you probably won't like it. But don't blame them because it's you who brought it onto yourself.

Geek, I've spoken my piece. You continue to demonstrate you really don't understand the nature of this hobby. You may know science (although I'm not so sure about that either), but to equate audio to 1 + 1 = 2.5...that's just plain silly.

I've already asked you what gear you have; I think it's relevant if I'm going to listen to you. After all, if I'm going to take movie advice from someone, I'd like to know what he tends to like; asking about restaurants, same thing. You've refused to answer...and I've coined my own, little saying...like you guys are so fond of: "Never trust an objectivist, who's afraid to tell you what he listens to"...lol.

You and your kind have said what gear you have isn't germane (that means relevant); ok...I don't agree, but I'll respect that. I've asked how to buy gear then? You guys have been SHOUTING about DBT, ABX, DBT; then Xianthax comes out and says he's never done one, and McNarus says they're next to impossible? Huh?

So I ask the simple question; how to buy gear? What's your 1 + 1 = x type equation, that leads me to the right amp? Now I know why I only see you guys in the 2-channel section; it's safety in numbers. It's the same old noise...and no facts or evidence...despite your many claims. You just know that if one of you says something, 3, 4 other guys...the same 3, 4 guys...will get your back, and you guys can high-five and dance around like...(leaving sentence unfinished to comply with TOS rules).

But I don't ever see you trying that stuff elsewhere. I've seen you challenged to do so, and flat-out refuse.

CD

Silly, isn't it. Like it or not, that's the equivalence you've been displaying here on your level of understanding DAC.


Given your displayed level of reading comprehension and understanding of DACs, why should I or anyone care what you think?

Oh geek-y; you really are like the kid on the playground, just making up crap, aren't you. Of course I can read. None of you has intimidated me intellectually. Quite frankly, many of you can't string together a very good sentence. Not exactly a big requirement when you're spending all that time in the lab, I would imagine.

You guys on the other hand; I've asked 3 very easy, yes or no type questions...and I guess your "reading comprehension" takes a powder when it comes time to answer those? No need; I really have lost my "edge" for this debate. You know how when you go from being angry at an adversary, to feeling sorry for them?

Although, I won't lie; I would still love to know what's the "right" way to try and buy new gear? Again, should be pretty easy to answer; just tell me what any one of you do, when it's time to pick a new component??

Isn't that me being willing to "learn"? Anyone??

CD

• Power adequate to drive the speaker load without distortion
• Features you need: Balance control, tone controls, phono pre-amp, built-in DAC, etc
• Brand you trust
• Aesthetics

What I don't understand is how you can get into an argument with a specific person and somehow manage to use the argument to make blanket insults against an entire group of people. And not even realize how insulting this is.

BTW you don't string together a sentence. You string words together to make sentences. Or you string sentences together to form paragraphs, etc.

You're right about that HT; I do tend to polarize the debate, and I'll admit that when one of you comes to the defense of another...against me...I kind of lump you into that group. My bad.

As for "stringing a sentence together"; you're wrong about that. It's a perfectly acceptable phrase http://www.usingenglish.com/referenc...+together.html...and kind of proves my point.

CD

"all produce an audio result that falls below or under the threshold of the best human ear to detect any difference in output these various DAC models might possibly produce."

Yet all you scientists fail to note that some packaged DACs may have been designed to intentionally alter the sound by emphasizing certain freqs as to make them sound "better". They even vary in output volume thus sounding different each time. It's all marketing and this is a consumer goods industry. Yet again proof that scientists yap all day not realizing that the real world isn't the same as an ideal utopia...

Well...this is when things went off the rails for me. I'd been arguing for weeks...maybe months...with people who said "all DACs sound the same"; when all of a sudden, the very same people started talking about how most "so-called" DACs...are full of filters and DSPs that do "who knows what" to the signal. So I was confused by the message; do DACs all sound the same, or are they full of things that alter the signal?

I mean, when any reasonable hobbyist speaks of DACs...as in "which of these DACs sounds better", or "what's the best DAC for X price"...of course they're talking about the whole box; input, processing, output. I don't think anyone's on record as saying they can hear a difference between this chip and that chip; there wouldn't even be a way to listen to a chip, without everything that's wrapped around it anyway, right?

So if the stuff "wrapped around it" can alter the sound, why can't DACs sound different?

CD

My theory, scientists argue all day to hide their inferiority complex with what they thought they knew best yet the real world is different and they refused to acknowledge that. You're just looking at them having orgasms doing these endless totally useless discussions. Move back a little from this site and see the world in a different way. I did and the last time I came here was a year ago. There are more important things in life anyway. Since they're so smart should use those brainpower to make money, create world peace, or enjoy the music instead of wasting time and electricity trying to convince people to buy cheap boomboxes cuz everything sounds the same. I'm sure these people aren't CEOs or owners of large corporations thus they can't think BIG or be creative.

Bottomline: if you got the $ be it cars, watches, audio... and just by owning and looking at them can make you happy then more power to you. Screw everyone else... they're just jealous. It's proof that form (emotion) is more satisfying than function (rationality). Why an expensive mistress is more fun than the wife... etc etc... why spoil someone else's fun?

Another audiophile who can't tell the difference between his mistress and his wife without looking at the pricetag.

Such products exist, but they are rare, even among DACs which make extravagant claims for their sonic superiority. Witness once again the many negative DBTs of DACs, and the relatively few positive ones.

Such products as also crap by design. We will gladly concede that all products that are crap by design will sound different from products which are not crap by design. That's why we typically say that DACs will sound the same unless they are broken or incompetently designed. This is what we mean by incompetently designed—that they are designed to do something a good DAC would not be designed to do.


So you've been here since 2008 and you've never encountered the term, "level matching"? You really ought to read more closely.

See...I told you guys I was fairly, comparatively moderate...lol.

CD