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The Official Silver Fire V.2 Thread. - Page 44

post #1291 of 1462
Thread Starter 
No...you have a dim bulb. It makes no sense whatsoever to try to ramp up your Mix / screen to service a Lamp that is pulling lumens from the dregs of 3000 hrs+.

With a new lamp, you can determine where you stand....with the old, you can have no real perception of such.

Is the cost of a new Lamp a serious issue?
post #1292 of 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

No...you have a dim bulb. It makes no sense whatsoever to try to ramp up your Mix / screen to service a Lamp that is pulling lumens from the dregs of 3000 hrs+.

With a new lamp, you can determine where you stand....with the old, you can have no real perception of such.

Is the cost of a new Lamp a serious issue?

I have a spare bulb, so swapping it out is not a problem. I have a feeling I have a setting off from when I was adjusting the colors and brightness. I am going to run through them again. I just wanted to make sure that I did not miss something with the paint. I will post back with results

Thank you
post #1293 of 1462
We'll it turned out I had the brightness set to low, the contrast set to high and color was off. I will hold off on changing the bulb for now. The bulb in there right now is at 3,300 hrs on economy mode and is rated at 5000. When I put it in normal lamp mode it was noticeably brighter.

Thank you
post #1294 of 1462
well a one quick question...
how much of the mix do you have left?
i may be able to help you make the most of what you have left and increase your brightness.

and usually a dull area like that is a result of not enough coverage... of metallics overlapping metallics.
post #1295 of 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

well a one quick question...
how much of the mix do you have left?
i may be able to help you make the most of what you have left and increase your brightness.

and usually a dull area like that is a result of not enough coverage... of metallics overlapping metallics.

I believe it is all sorted out now. I took the projector down and cleaned the optics and put in the spare bulb I have. Also adjusted the settings again and it looks good now. I took a few quick pics with my iphone and will post some soon. Thank you to everyone who has helped. I'm a happy camper now.

Thank you
post #1296 of 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

that is correct.
although what has changed is the recommendation to use Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte and the switch from Liquitex Silver to Martha Stewart's Polished Silver (available at home depot). The latter was used and been detailed my MM's thread... "another DIY 2:35 screen taking off"


Can anyone help locating the following in Canada (Toronto Area)?

 

Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte - Don't even see this on Rustoleum's Canadian website, sent email asking for local store, but no answer yet.

Martha Stewart's Polished Silver - Not at Lowes or HD

Behr 1850 UPW Flat -  No longer available in Canada...or at least the Toronto Area...this seems to be the consensus by a few people.

 

Or have good suggestions for alternatives.

 

Out of curiosity, is there any reason the mix isn't using the "Rustoleum Metallic Accents Sterling Silver" in place of the Martha stuff?  Is it too dark, big flake etc?

 

I have everything else, but may have to pull the plug on this if I can't get the rest of the supplies.  Still looking for a good sprayer, but won't be necessary if I can't find the rest.  Don't want to by a Wagner due to the new versions having the "fat" needle.

 

With all of this mash up of paints, does this still dry rock hard due to the Poly and remain very scrub-able?

 

Thanks,

G

post #1297 of 1462
you are welcome to use rustoleum's metallic accents sterling silver...as i have tested extensively with it
as for the Behr UPW... use a quality ultra pure white such as valspar, shermain williams, dutch boy, etc.
if you are unable to find rustoleum's ultimate poly matte... then go with minwax's polyacrylic - satin.
post #1298 of 1462

Thanks!

 

What should I expect with the substitutions in question.

 

I'm assuming the UPW it wouldn't matter too much,

 

With the minwax, I expect it to be a bit more glossy.  ??

 

Rustoleum sterling ?  Don't have a clue, should I expect the same results, darker, more reflections etc.

 

I'm already concerned about some comments on sparkles, so I was going to add the extra 3-6 oz of UPW to the mix that is suggested to avoid this. 

 

Was thinking to going with a mid level mix SF 2.5.(whatever version this mix would create) at level 2-3.  Want it light as mostly dark with some reflective light, but want some options for ambient light.

 

Any tips on this mix up would be greatly appreciated!  Thank you very much! 

post #1299 of 1462
in terms of shade... the MS and Rustoleum Sterling are very close... not visually noticable between them. unlike the liquitex.
the minwax has been the mainstay for years. the ultimate poly takes it to the next level of flatness.
the more upw the ever so slightly less gain and ambient you've have... so it's a bit of trade off to remove any sheen or graininess caveats.
i think you've got a pretty good handle of the components.
post #1300 of 1462
Here are a few screen shots. They are not the best quality due to my poor picture taking skills.




lights on


lights off







The pics are not the greatest. In actuality the colors are a lot deeper than what they show. I will try and take some better ones. Just want to say a BIG thanks to you guys for helping out.

Thank you
post #1301 of 1462

Thanks PB_Maxxx!

 

So to clerify 100% - It looks like substituting the MS vs. Rustoleum silver and/or the UPW for another good UPW won't make much difference, but if I can get my hands on the Ultimate Poly its a worthy upgrade, but will work with the Minwax..which I have found.

 

I've gone through dozens of pages of this and other SF threads, but I haven't seen any official comments on what the best base paint is when going straight to a wall.  I've seen a few comments just stating over a UPW, but not what sheen.  Is it just the same Flat UPW in the mix?  Would any white primer do?  I don't know how transparent this ends up being so I can't judge how important the starting base is, outside of being void of any imperfections.

post #1302 of 1462
buy a gallon of the quaility upw flat that you'll be using in the mix or a quality primer (sheen unimportant.
what is important to get the wall free of imiperfections/blemishes and baby butt smooth.

basecoats.
sand.
5 or 6 dusters.
sand.
finish with 3 dusters.
Edited by pb_maxxx - 11/13/13 at 6:38am
post #1303 of 1462

OK!  So now I have everything to make up the "Canadian" SF 2.X.

 

I picked up the Behr 1750 UPW.  I was getting mixed comments on this one.  One HD told me it wasn't as good as 1850, the other told me its was better then 1850.  Being a lower number I would think lower quality, but Behr's website list it as their top "Ultra" paint.  From what I can tell by reading Behr's technical documents, the main difference is the sheen is a bit lower on the 1750.  This could even benefit those who can't find the Rustoleum as the added "matte" from the 1750, may bring the sheen down on the Minwax to the same level as the Rustoleum.  Unless someone yells for me to stop, I don't want to over think this and will just go with the 1750.  I'll likely be pulling the trigger (on the sprayer ;-)  this weekend.

 

On another note, I've seen little in the way of comments on spraying with a compressor based spray gun.  Any reason you can't use this with a 1.4mm needle, .5Liter air sprayer?  Is the mica too large?  Latex dry in the gun? 

 

I see some old threads where people were doing it, but not much since the new turbine airless sprayers have taken over.  Is it just because the air setup costs much more if you don't already have it?

 

I would think this method would give you as good if not better "finishing" level fine spray.

 

Also, anyone use Floetrol in place of some of the water?


Edited by AXCL - 11/21/13 at 12:30pm
post #1304 of 1462
I was fortunate enough to have my employer buy an X-Rite i1 Pro 2 Spectrometer for some un-related work that I'm doing.

The good thing about this device, is that it's able to take spectral measurements, and do these both in emissive mode (for measuring displays, including images from projectors, and light sources), and reflective mode, for measuring colour patches. On some another forum, they've used these measurement tools to evaluate many paint mixes, but I wanted to run these tests myself as there is some potential variability in mixing, as well as in application.

I've now managed to paint test panels in the following mixes, and take measurements for each of them with the spectrometer.

  • Silver Fire v2.5.2* 3.0
  • Silver Fire v2.5.2* 4.0
  • Valspar Tinted 'Veil' Black Widow Ultra 4:1
  • Jo-Anne's Black Out Cloth (Un-painted)





This data and plots are quite interesting, and show quite clearly the slight blue push that Silver Fire exhibits. The amount of blue push is very slight however, and though the data does show that it is indeed there, I'm positive that any projector worth it's salt could be calibrated to eliminate it. In fact, the amount of blue push is significantly less than would be present from a badly calibrated image, or I'm sure from most projectors and displays out of the box!

I'm still not sure that Silver Fire is the right paint mix for me, but it certainly has some very impressive qualities.

Now that I've had a chance to compare Silver Fire to Black Widow Ultra (which, as claimed, does have a more neutral reflective spectrum), I can see that Silver Fire has a darker appearance (perhaps similar to a ~N6 grey), but results in brighter whites than Black Out Cloth! It's not for everyone, and is not without side effects, but the performance in higher amounts of ambient light is the best of the DIY paint mixes I've seen so far.
post #1305 of 1462
During my search for the ideal DIY paint screen for my viewing environment, I've learnt some valuable lessons that I think value being shared here as well...

I do almost all of my viewing at night, in a room that is nearly completely dark (with my JVC RS56 image blanked, I can see shadows on my screen), but I have white walls, cream carpet and a cream sofa. I was looking for a screen to help with this situation, because I can't paint the walls and I've basically failed to find a solution that I'm happy with so far.

Having white walls and ceiling are a nightmare to be honest, and much has already been said about the issue, but to re-iterate, the short story is:

Reflected light will wash out the blacks, to the extent of the average picture level of the scene. Dealing with Ambient light is much easier, because you can raise the black level in your calibrations (or more basic settings), to account for the consistently elevated black levels. Depending on the choice of screen, this can result in some really good pictures, although obviously nothing beats a truly dark environment.

Calibrating, or adjusting, for reflected light is basically impossible, because the elevated black level from the reflections is constantly changing, and with white walls, this will be changing A LOT, and will also be reflecting A LOT. You could potentially calibrate for this, by raising your black level to account for perhaps a 30% average picture level, but your contrast ratio with white walls will be very low (around 50:1 in my testing) if you do this, and that's really not an acceptable solution.

To put this into perspective...

As I showed a few posts back, I found that I was able to increase my ANSI contrast ratio (50% picture level) to about 65:1 with a Silver Fire v2.5.2 3.0 and white walls, which is an improvement, but only an 18% improvement, and the black level is still all over the place!

I've now installed black curtains that I pull out to cover a large portion of the side walls, and I've also added a very short (~18") section above the screen, a bit like a roof. The result is a much much more stable black level, and an ANSI contrast ratio on an un-painted BOC screen of 120:1; a 120% improvement over white walls.

If you are simply not prepared to change your viewing environment, you'll need to find a screen that is 'retro-reflective' which means that it reflects light back mostly in the direction from which it came. You'll need to be careful with the placement of your projector, and commercial versions of these types of screens are very expensive. Silver Fire is probably the best DIY option I've come across, but it's not a cure all, and is not able to replace some minor improvements to your viewing environment.

And so to summarise:

  • The viewing environment has an enormous impact on the performance of the system, and changes to the screen can improve things... but only so much
  • You can dramatically improve the performance of the system by reducing reflections in your room, and there are permanent and tempory solutions for this
  • It is much more difficult to deal with reflected projection light, than static ambient light
  • The latest versions of Silver Fire seem to offer an amazing balance of dark (relatively) neutral grey, and reasonable gain
  • As gain is increased, viewing cone and/or hot spotting also increases, as do sparkling artefacts; the best screens aim to reduce these compromises
post #1306 of 1462
Just to clarify... it is very difficult for a screen to provide a measurable improvement in contrast ratio, and although I stated that an 18% improvement wasn't much in my previous post, it's incredible from a screen, particularly for a DIY screen!

A neutral grey screen might provide you with some perceived contrast ratio gains, but measurements will show that there are no gains at all, and just that the overall levels at every point have been attenuated (which does have benefits in some cases).

I simply wanted to make the point again, that Silver Fire is an impressive paint mix.
post #1307 of 1462
nezil, I think you have compiled some excellent data. Appreciate all the hard work you have put in to show hard data.

Will contact you in PM to see how you did this so I can see if I can replicate them with paints in Malaysia.

Thanks
post #1308 of 1462
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AXCL View Post


On another note, I've seen little in the way of comments on spraying with a compressor based spray gun.  Any reason you can't use this with a 1.4mm needle, .5Liter air sprayer?  Is the mica too large?  Latex dry in the gun? 

I see some old threads where people were doing it, but not much since the new turbine airless sprayers have taken over.  Is it just because the air setup costs much more if you don't already have it?

I would think this method would give you as good if not better "finishing" level fine spray.]/quote]

Expense is certainly a primary issue, but also important is the likelihood of water condensation that is present in the Tank and hoses,as well as Rust in the tank, both necessitating the use of a good Water / Rust Filter to avoid "Fish-Eye" spots caused by water droplets embedded in the sprayed paint, and nasty little "rust-icles"..../little spots of black rust.

And...unless your Compressor is "Mighty Mighty" in capacity (25 gals. + ) it will have issues maintaining the consistent pressure at the gun required to achieve a perfectly even lay-down of paint from Top-to-Bottom & Side-to-Side.

Even so, the "PITA" of coping with all the hoses, filters, Gun and Regulator settings makes the use of such almost silly.....unless is really proficient in their use, owns everything needed, and simply wants / is gonna use 'em.

I personally have a 32 Gallon Compressor and a couple of the best HVLP Guns made...and they have lain dormant since 2007
Quote:
Also, anyone use Floetrol in place of some of the water?

No. And don't. Floetrol is intended to condition paint and help it to flatten out when rolling. It only interferes with the viscosity index when added to a sprayed-on mixture.
post #1309 of 1462

Thanks MM! 

 

By the time I received your post, I already had my compressor and everything in my HT room.  I have a small tank, but a high output compressor for the size, so it will maintain the CFM's I need.  My turn on pressure is 90PSI and it will hold that steady while outputting 5.1 CFM @ 50PSI , so I cold paint until my compressor blows out!  I've already sprayed down some of the 1750 which went fairly well.  I certainly need to thin it some more for the next couple of coats.  I mixed up the base of SF to check the viscosity and it is much thinner then I currently have the UPW I was spraying.

 

Does anyone have pics of the new SF pre colorant, as well as the new colorant?  My SF base looks much darker, more gray then the silver in the other pics I've seen, but I believe they were all with the Liquitex Silver.  I'm using the Rustoleum as per PB_MAXX's suggestion that it was the same as the MS Silver.

 

also my colorant looks like a dark purplely brown, not gray like the other pics.  I have enough to try again, so should I just scrap it, or is it salvageable?  Is there a good tool for measuring these out, or are most still using the measuring spoons?

 

MM, I thought, I've seen your suggestions to use the Squirrel Cage on the colorant, but how?  With such a small amount you'd need a container just bigger then the cage itself to get it to mix...or is there a trick I'm missing.

post #1310 of 1462
I wouldn't be concerned about the base mix... you'd have to make a huge mistake to screw that up.
As for the colorant mix... that does sound a bit green/yellow deficient... we can address that later.
(given the hard data and consistant with several recent descriptions of the raw colorant mix... i'll address the colorant mix and make a slight update)

As for your mix... go ahead with the complete mix... and report back and we can address it from there.

as for viscosity... note how you said the UPW is nearly twice as thick SF base...
well,.. with a 1.5mm tip... you'll want it to more like 3 to 4x thinner than the UPW.
post #1311 of 1462
Silver Fire Colorant Update

The following is an update to the Silver Fire v2.5 mix and applies to the colorant components.
Given the independent hard data... and descriptions froim indendent SF users making screens for themselves...
I am compelled to make these minor changes and make SF even more RGB nuetral.

(Components) - update 11/27/13

100ml - filtered/distilled water for rinsing color components from utensils
50ml - Liquitex Basics - Napthol Crimson Red
25ml - Liquitex Basics - Phthalocyanine Green
14ml - Liquitex Basics - UltraMarine Blue
10ml - Liquitex Basics - Cadmium Yellow - Deep Hue
post #1312 of 1462
Thread Starter 
The Changes to the Colorant formula listed above have been posted on the first page.
post #1313 of 1462
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AXCL View Post

Thanks MM! 

By the time I received your post, I already had my compressor and everything in my HT room.  I have a small tank, but a high output compressor for the size, so it will maintain the CFM's I need.  My turn on pressure is 90PSI and it will hold that steady while outputting 5.1 CFM @ 50PSI , so I cold paint until my compressor blows out!  I've already sprayed down some of the 1750 which went fairly well.  I certainly need to thin it some more for the next couple of coats.  I mixed up the base of SF to check the viscosity and it is much thinner then I currently have the UPW I was spraying.

Does anyone have pics of the new SF pre colorant, as well as the new colorant?  My SF base looks much darker, more gray then the silver in the other pics I've seen, but I believe they were all with the Liquitex Silver.  I'm using the Rustoleum as per PB_MAXX's suggestion that it was the same as the MS Silver.

also my colorant looks like a dark purplely brown, not gray like the other pics.  I have enough to try again, so should I just scrap it, or is it salvageable?  Is there a good tool for measuring these out, or are most still using the measuring spoons?

MM, I thought, I've seen your suggestions to use the Squirrel Cage on the colorant, but how?  With such a small amount you'd need a container just bigger then the cage itself to get it to mix...or is there a trick I'm missing.

The latest iterations of SF using the MS Silver are all noticeably darker so no worries there.

As for the Colorant, take some on a spoon and slowly rinse it into a sink, or into a very small amount of water in a glass. It should look Brown. Otherwise report back.

When I mix colorant I do so in 1/2 gallon quantities so I can use the Squirrel cage easily. Using a 32 oz cup, something like a 7-11 "Plastic" soda cup, the Squirrel Cage can break down to 1/2 it's depth...it snaps apart in the middle. You use it then at a relative slow speed, after first using a Flat stirring stick (...a Butter Knife works great...) to do the initial mixing.
post #1314 of 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

I wouldn't be concerned about the base mix... you'd have to make a huge mistake to screw that up.
As for the colorant mix... that does sound a bit green/yellow deficient... we can address that later.
(given the hard data and consistant with several recent descriptions of the raw colorant mix... i'll address the colorant mix and make a slight update)

As for your mix... go ahead with the complete mix... and report back and we can address it from there.

as for viscosity... note how you said the UPW is nearly twice as thick SF base...
well,.. with a 1.5mm tip... you'll want it to more like 3 to 4x thinner than the UPW.

I'll try to mix up a new colorant batch using your new formula and I'll let you know how it goes.  Too paranoid to mix it completely as I don't want to trash the entire batch. 

 

Re "3 to 4x thinner", my statement was just an that it "was thinner", but I certainly get your point.  After thinning the UPW a couple of times to get the base to lay down right, I'm wishing I would have just waited to get a turbine.  I'm in this far...I know it will work, I just have to figure out the consistency.  I started the SF with the 24oz of water.  Based on your comment, I'm assuming this is not enough.  Any suggested starting point for my 1.4mm tip (actually smaller then I thought).

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post


The latest iterations of SF using the MS Silver are all noticeably darker so no worries there.

As for the Colorant, take some on a spoon and slowly rinse it into a sink, or into a very small amount of water in a glass. It should look Brown. Otherwise report back.

When I mix colorant I do so in 1/2 gallon quantities so I can use the Squirrel cage easily. Using a 32 oz cup, something like a 7-11 "Plastic" soda cup, the Squirrel Cage can break down to 1/2 it's depth...it snaps apart in the middle. You use it then at a relative slow speed, after first using a Flat stirring stick (...a Butter Knife works great...) to do the initial mixing.

 

Glad to hear my darker batch is normal.  If I wanted the old 3, should I now go with a 2 mix or stick with the guide.

 

I'll try your Colorant test prior to mixing up my new batch and if I try the new mix, I'll see what I can come up with to use the Squirrel to mix the colorant.

 

pb_maxx/MM, You guys both ROCK!  To join a forum with guys as dedicated to helping people as you are is fantastic.  Please let me know if either of you are ever in the Toronto area as I owe you both a few good Canadian Beers!

post #1315 of 1462
i wouldn't be so stuck on the older 3.0 visual color (lighter) vs the new 3.0 visual color (darker).

the darker the visual color.. the lower the black level floor will be as ambient light level increases... which can easily happen from even as little as a bright scene followed by a dark scene. but realize the latest mix is also more reflective... so it maintains the same and/or better white level ceiling as the older mix. with the overall effect being slight improved contrast levels over the older mix.. and for the uneducated... this simply means it maintains more of the PJ's available contrast.
post #1316 of 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

i wouldn't be so stuck on the older 3.0 visual color (lighter) vs the new 3.0 visual color (darker).

the darker the visual color.. the lower the black level floor will be as ambient light level increases... which can easily happen from even as little as a bright scene followed by a dark scene. but realize the latest mix is also more reflective... so it maintains the same and/or better white level ceiling as the older mix. with the overall effect being slight improved contrast levels over the older mix.. and for the uneducated... this simply means it maintains more of the PJ's available contrast.


Makes sense

 

Here's my room, a 14x17 fairly light controlled area.  Projector =  Epson 3020 at 13' with Cinema Eco enabled to a 120" Diag screen (just short of the closest possible distance for 120").  Room will be painted a darkish gray, possibly including ceiling.  Most viewing will be done with lights out, but some gaming/company over viewing will have some back controlled (vertical) lighting.  I can already tell my biggest lighting issues will be ambient from the screen/projector, not anything else.

 

SF 2 or 3 is what I'm debating over.  I also have worries about the "sparklies" some people have commented on.  So I planned on adding a bit extra UPW to the mix to combat this.

 

What do you recommend?

post #1317 of 1462
Hi all. I'm going to try using Silver Fire v2.5 4.0 for my new (and first) screen. MM helped me decide this over in this thread, if anyone is interested in my particulars.

I've put together my shopping list, and I've got a couple questions:

  1. What's the best way to measure the ingredients? All those mL's and oz's. In particular, those colorant tubes look a bit tricky. Do I use a measuring cup, kitchen style? Or is there some other method for paint? (Little spoons or scoops?)
  2. I've got a Wagner sprayer. I really don't want to have to buy a different one. I have the Wagner 518080 Control Spray Max HVLP Sprayer. I gather that these sprayers have the equivalent of a 2mm "needle", and that this isn't ideal. Can I make it work anyway? Dial back the air pressure, make sure the paint is well thinned, and fiddle with the trigger position until the mist is as misty as I can get it? Any advice on this front would be hugely appreciated. The only thing I've ever painted with that thing is my screen porch.

[EDIT] I went out and purchased most of my ingredients. I asked my wife how she thought I should measure those thick "colorants". She recommended a syringe. So, we stopped at our vet's office on the way home and purchased a 60mL syringe. (It's also marked with ounces.) Two bucks. I think it's going to work really well. Not sure if I'll be able to suck paint out of the tubes directly, or if I'll need to remove the plunger and fill the syringe from the back.

Michael's was out of the gold, so I'm ordering that from Amazon, along with the Rust-Oleum Metallic Accents White Pearl stuff. Oh, and a squirrel cage mixer. HD/Lowes didn't have that type of mixer.

And a copy of Pacific Rim. $8! smile.gif

Still hoping for some advice on how to use my Wagner.
Edited by DaveNagy - 11/29/13 at 1:49pm
post #1318 of 1462
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AXCL View Post


SF 2 or 3 is what I'm debating over.  I also have worries about the "sparklies" some people have commented on.  So I planned on adding a bit extra UPW to the mix to combat this.

What do you recommend?

6 oz. outta do it.
post #1319 of 1462
Question: Masonite or "Thifty White"?

I checked my local Home Depot and Lowes for paint-able screen materials, and both stores seemed to have the same two options:

  1. That stuff that looks like pegboard, except without the holes. Dark brown. Nice finish on both sides. Comes in two thicknesses. I'd go with the thicker one.
  2. Another material that Home Depot calls "Thifty" board, or something like that. Very shiny and smooth white coating on one side of the sheet. I didn't notice the thickness of the substrate.

Which is better? The Thrifty board is likely a bit smoother, but I'm not sure how well paint will adhere.
post #1320 of 1462
I am using the brown Masonite board for a screen. You will need to do a few coats of primer. If you are attaching it to a frame make sure it has support in the middle because it can sag a bit. If it is just being attached to the wall then you are ok.
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