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High end PreAmps, Theta CBIIIHD.

post #1 of 66
2/2/11 at 5:49pm
Thread Starter 
Well I am about to pull the trigger on a preamp and being a noob in higher end theater equipment and trying to do some due diligence. When I started on this Journey to a dedicated theater I though Bose was the way to go, fortunately I found this site (well if you ask my wife it is unfortunate! ) and I need a little advise. I asked a question about other preamps compared to the Theta in the Theta thread , but was told that I should make my own thread. I want it to be know, I don't mind topic of discussion and nothing is off topic, but lets keep the personal jabs to a minimum.

I am all but set to buy the Theta CBIIIHD, but the the fact that there is no room EQ so to speak is bothering me a little. I was always from the start going to go with a separate EQ system for the lower frequencies (which is still to be decided). My room is fully treated and is pretty flat down to about 200hz , except for a little null around the 700hz mark(will be working on getting rid of that) Will room EQ make any difference or should I be looking at different Preamps? I don't listen to two channel at all, I am a multi channel person and I want a great surround processor that is HDMI. I obviously have been looking at other processors like the meridian, ADA Mach4 and the cheaper Denon A1HDCI. So what makes a good SSP?
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post #2 of 66
2/2/11 at 6:07pm
Depending on your requirements, I would also add the Dirac A20 and the Classe to your list.
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post #3 of 66
2/2/11 at 6:07pm
Do you have a budget on a SSP???????

Does your wife have to approve your decisions on gear? Does she know the gear's actual cost?

All of these factors may be equally pertinent as your sonics?
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post #4 of 66
2/2/11 at 6:20pm
When you say you're a multichannel person, does that mean movies only? Or do you rock the multichannel music as well?

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about room eq from the standpoint of an automated system, because you should be able to get the same results from a good calibrator with the proper equipment and software ( think commercial sound service providers- SMAART, EASERA pro, etc. Earthworks mics, so on. )

Yes the ADA has the advantage of the Trinnov, but 17k plus the processor puts you into the range of 25k total investment. Yeah you could make a CBIIIHD spun-out at that price and have better music performance, but for movies- you will not hear a difference.

My money would be on Rhapsody M4, and a really good DSP plus professional calibration. I think that gives you the best value overall.

Not marketing as ADA dealer either, I can just as easily sell Theta- I'm being truly agnostic with my recommendation.

Dan
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post #5 of 66
2/2/11 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Depending on your requirements, I would also add the Dirac A20 and the Classe to your list.

The problem is, I need to know why these are good choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Do you have a budget on a SSP???????

Does your wife have to approve your decisions on gear? Does she know the gear's actual cost?

All of these factors may be equally pertinent as your sonics?

Don't really have a budget so to speak, but I do want something that is upgradeable. I looked at the mark Levinson 502, but that unit could possibly be phased out like the previous model.

My wife dosen't need to know what this will cost or get her approval. I have an overall budget for the theater and a high end preamp should not put me over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

When you say you're a multichannel person, does that mean movies only? Or do you rock the multichannel music as well?

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about room eq from the standpoint of an automated system, because you should be able to get the same results from a good calibrator with the proper equipment and software ( think commercial sound service providers- SMAART, EASERA pro, etc. Earthworks mics, so on. )

Yes the ADA has the advantage of the Trinnov, but 17k plus the processor puts you into the range of 25k total investment. Yeah you could make a CBIIIHD spun-out at that price and have better music performance, but for movies- you will not hear a difference.

My money would be on Rhapsody M4, and a really good DSP plus professional calibration. I think that gives you the best value overall.

Not marketing as ADA dealer either, I can just as easily sell Theta- I'm being truly agnostic with my recommendation.

Dan

No music, a movie guy.


Can't really get a good calibrator here , unless I fly someone over from the states.(I live in Japan) I have seen the dedicated home theaters here and even had a proffesional installer give a quote and what his ideas on a good room was. Suffice to say he was going to treat the whole room with 5mm thick panel that was finished like a rough plaster finish and that was going directly onto soild concrete walls(my room is a bunker). His reasoning was that movies are all digital so you won't hear the difference.WTF Sure some of these brands are sold here , but not many people will have the knowledge to set them up. Which is why I am a little concerned that there is not automatic Room EQ.

I could certainly try harder find someone that could do the setup.
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post #6 of 66
2/2/11 at 6:45pm
My opinion is that if the movie room is primarily for movies, spending $20K - $30K on an SSP for Blu Ray is a complete waste of funds (unless you simply have to spend that amount to feel good). But those dollars elsewhere are better for the theater experience. DSP and EQ will give you a more precision in your freq response and, hence, more accuracy and better soncis. I'm a firm believer and have implemented such in my theater.

Todays world does not justify a $20000 (or more) SSP unless it has a lot goodies on board (PEQ, etc). As Dan alluded to, the Trinnov piece is excellent (@$15K). I demo'd it a couple times at CEDIA - what an impact! The Dirac looks promising a thend QSC pieces are tried and true and also a very good value for far less dollars than the Trinnov.

The ADA, Classe are two pieces that represent state fo the art, but $10K for an SSP is yesterday's $15K - $20K. For movies, more than $10K simply unnecessary in my opinion.

If you have an extra $10K or $20K burning a hole in your pocket, put it into front projection which will pay far more dividends than a high priced SSP..Spending at least $30K on a projector or an auto masking screen or a sophisticated control system is better value.
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post #7 of 66
2/2/11 at 9:47pm
You know, Dave, you SHOULD consider flying someone over from tue states. What's airfare? A couple grand round trip? Plus accommodations and fees - you're still probably only 60% of the coat of the big Trinnov. Figure a good 8x8 DSP from a company like Biamp or BSS or Symetrix is going to run 5k retail....all in, costs are pretty close; could be less depending on the calibrator.

Food for thought

Dan
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post #8 of 66
2/2/11 at 10:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

My opinion is that if the movie room is primarily for movies, spending $20K - $30K on an SSP for Blu Ray is a complete waste of funds (unless you simply have to spend that amount to feel good). But those dollars elsewhere are better for the theater experience. DSP and EQ will give you a more precision in your freq response and, hence, more accuracy and better soncis. I'm a firm believer and have implemented such in my theater.

Todays world does not justify a $20000 (or more) SSP unless it has a lot goodies on board (PEQ, etc). As Dan alluded to, the Trinnov piece is excellent (@$15K). I demo'd it a couple times at CEDIA - what an impact! The Dirac looks promising a thend QSC pieces are tried and true and also a very good value for far less dollars than the Trinnov.

The ADA, Classe are two pieces that represent state fo the art, but $10K for an SSP is yesterday's $15K - $20K. For movies, more than $10K simply unnecessary in my opinion.

If you have an extra $10K or $20K burning a hole in your pocket, put it into front projection which will pay far more dividends than a high priced SSP..Spending at least $30K on a projector or an auto masking screen or a sophisticated control system is better value.

It is not that I have an extra $10K or $20K burning a hole in my pocket, I do have the money, but like you I am not one to waste it. The reason why I am looking at SSP's in this range is b/c I seem to be quite sensitive with my hearing. I have an Integra DHC-80.1 right now, I bought it so I could at least watch a movie while I get things setup in the theater. Suffice to say, listening to it is like taking sandpaper to your ear drums. I then had a rep from Denon set up a Denon A1HDCI and listened to that for a while. That sounded quite good and was a lot, lot better than the integra.

But I can't imagine the Denon being better than say an ADA Mach4 , theta CBIIIHD or any of the higher end SSP's. And even if I get a marginal improvement, if it makes my listening experience that much more comfortable I am more likely to spend the money.

One brand I haven't mentioned is Krell 707, why I haven't is b/c of all the internal trouble they are having right now (Please correct me if I am wrong) and b/c I tried a 1200 and I didn't like the sound.

So basically that is where I am at right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

You know, Dave, you SHOULD consider flying someone over from tue states. What's airfare? A couple grand round trip? Plus accommodations and fees - you're still probably only 60% of the coat of the big Trinnov. Figure a good 8x8 DSP from a company like Biamp or BSS or Symetrix is going to run 5k retail....all in, costs are pretty close; could be less depending on the calibrator.

Food for thought

Dan

Problem I keep thinking of is, whenever I change a component in the chain, will I have to have the calibrator come and adjust the changes? And I know that may only be once in a blue moon, but you never know what will happen and I may need recalibration several times in a few years. At least with something automatic with ability to tweak I will covered. It is a tough decision.
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post #9 of 66
2/2/11 at 11:28pm
What speakers do you intend to use?
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post #10 of 66
2/3/11 at 3:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

It is not that I have an extra $10K or $20K burning a hole in my pocket, I do have the money, but like you I am not one to waste it. The reason why I am looking at SSP's in this range is b/c I seem to be quite sensitive with my hearing. I have an Integra DHC-80.

Problem I keep thinking of is, whenever I change a component in the chain, will I have to have the calibrator come and adjust the changes? And I know that may only be once in a blue moon, but you never know what will happen and I may need recalibration several times in a few years. At least with something automatic with ability to tweak I will covered. It is a tough decision.

I didn't know the Integra was in your rack. I can assure you that anything will sound better than the Integra - don't feel you have to go so far as the Krell or Theta for a significant improvement. It is an easy preamp to beat. The Denon is well liked around here but it is at least 5 years old.

If movies are your primary thing, you've got lots of good choices.

Near Detroit? You can demo mine.


Also, most SSPs are set and forget it. I'd worry more about video changes when adding new sources.
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post #11 of 66
2/3/11 at 3:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

What speakers do you intend to use?

I will be using Mark Seatons Catalysts and sparks for surrounds.
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post #12 of 66
2/3/11 at 3:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I didn't know the Integra was in your rack. I can assure you that anything will sound better than the Integra - don't feel you have to go so far as the Krell or Theta for a significant improvement. It is an easy preamp to beat. The Denon is well liked around here but it is at least 5 years old.

If movies are your primary thing, you've got lots of good choices.

Near Detroit? You can demo mine.


Also, most SSPs are set and forget it. I'd worry more about video changes when adding new sources.

Unfortunately in Japan. I have a Yamaha DSP-Z9 and the sound on that is not too bad, I would like better.

I honestly have no Idea what you have for a preamp, all I know it is not a Theta.
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post #13 of 66
2/3/11 at 4:09am
Hi. I paged through your room.. Fantastic!!!

Seaton sound speakers, a 14' wide micro perf! Very, very similar to my own set up. I have a 14' wide screen and speakers and subs very similar to yours. In fact my main row seating and overall room dimensions are very close to your own! The esthetics of your room are gorgeous!

I us an ADA Mach IV B... If you haven't figured it out.. When I was shopping it was that or the Classe - another stellar performer. I'm sure the Theta would sound nice but for me it is twice the price of what it should be - especially if you're HT minded.

Congrats!
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post #14 of 66
2/3/11 at 4:53am
Thread Starter 
Thanks,

And here I thought you were pushing for units like the Integras, I will let you know how my crow tastes. Have you thought about the Seaton speakers? I don't know what exactly you have now except for the Bdeaps. I wish my basement had higher ceilings though.

The ADA with the Trinnov looks very interesting, but as DanFrancis said, that would make the unit around $25K for the 12 channel. Hmmm....
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post #15 of 66
2/3/11 at 5:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Thanks,

And here I thought you were pushing for units like the Integras, I will let you know how my crow tastes. Have you thought about the Seaton speakers? I don't know what exactly you have now except for the Bdeaps. I wish my basement had higher ceilings though.

The ADA with the Trinnov looks very interesting, but as DanFrancis said, that would make the unit around $25K for the 12 channel. Hmmm....

I'll likely be adding the Trinnov to my set up, too.

Integra?? Doesnt' Best Buy sell them??

I have thought of the Seaton speakers. Talkeed to Mark about them. Mark, in fact, recommended and installed my LCRs and subs. Philosophically, Mark and I are on the same page. Lots of power, head room and big dynamics! I run 700W to my L and R speakers, 2400W to my center and 400 to each surround (2500W to each sub). All Equitech balanced power ('cept the subs). My system has never sounded better. So, that said, I will not swap out as though I'd likely get a bit better performance, it is too much a lateral move. I think cost wise, my LCRs are on par with the Catalysts (if you include amplifier) but the Catalysts are clearly an improvement over mine.

However, after my two oldest leave for college in 3 years, we'll likely be selling our home to down-size and so another HT to design. That's when I'd make a move on new speakers / subs.


But tell me, I have a 14' wide microperf (1.3 gain) scope set up like you... How bright does that Vango LED light it up? How many ft lamberts in brightness? I use a Lumis / HOST and get around 14 Ft Lamberts with (ISCO lens in place) in lowest lamp mode (230W) according to my calibration report (calibrated at 400 hours on lamp).
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post #16 of 66
2/3/11 at 6:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I'll likely be adding the Trinnov to my set up, too.

Integra?? Doesnt' Best Buy sell them??

I have thought of the Seaton speakers. Talkeed to Mark about them. Mark, in fact, recommended and installed my LCRs and subs. Philosophically, Mark and I are on the same page. Lots of power, head room and big dynamics! I run 700W to my L and R speakers, 2400W to my center and 400 to each surround (2500W to each sub). All Equitech balanced power ('cept the subs). My system has never sounded better. So, that said, I will not swap out as though I'd likely get a bit better performance, it is too much a lateral move. I think cost wise, my LCRs are on par with the Catalysts (if you include amplifier) but the Catalysts are clearly an improvement over mine.

However, after my two oldest leave for college in 3 years, we'll likely be selling our home to down-size and so another HT to design. That's when I'd make a move on new speakers / subs.


But tell me, I have a 14' wide microperf (1.3 gain) scope set up like you... How bright does that Vango LED light it up? How many ft lamberts in brightness? I use a Lumis / HOST and get around 14 Ft Lamberts with (ISCO lens in place) in lowest lamp mode (230W) according to my calibration report (calibrated at 400 hours on lamp).

Ok, so you have quite a bit of power there! Mark definitely knows his stuff and I wish I could have lived a little closer and have him calibrate my system, but it is what it is.

I don't think I am getting a lot Ft Lamberts, but if it was calibrated how it was in Jason from AVS's review, I should be getting about 10fL. But if it was done like some others are doing with the PJ, I may only be getting 6fL. But image is definitely not lacking , much better than my friends JVC 950 and looks just as bright and he only has a 11' wide screen.


Sounds good with the new room.
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post #17 of 66
2/3/11 at 7:07am
Dave, an audio calibration should be inclusive of room/speakers primarily, sources should be level matched, and then finally- if needed- the sources should be eq'ed to match each other, but I don't see that being necessary with most higher end pieces available today. Other than Blu-ray, what do you use for sources?

If you're using Mark's stuff; my strong recommendation would be something like the Rhap4, a Symetrix Jupiter8 and proper calibration. Depending on the deal you get on the processors, you may be able to get setup for right around the price of the Trinnov alone.

Dan
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post #18 of 66
2/3/11 at 12:52pm
Japan Dave

You mentioned UPGRADEAILITY. If you want or need this, not a bad idea IMO, this will eliminate many of the lower priced units like the ADA and others. IIRC only Theta, Meridian, Krell(?), and Lexicon (limited) offer upgrades and only Theta has taken their product from day one to today. Theta IMO is the best company to support upgrades to their SSP, Casablanca, much to the chagrin of some here. They also offer DAC upgrades and options as well. You can also choose crossover types and placements for each speaker and up to 8.4 speakers as well. True fully balanced through and through, not some band-aide add on as others often do.

I hope this helps.
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post #19 of 66
2/3/11 at 2:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Dave, an audio calibration should be inclusive of room/speakers primarily, sources should be level matched, and then finally- if needed- the sources should be eq'ed to match each other, but I don't see that being necessary with most higher end pieces available today. Other than Blu-ray, what do you use for sources?

If you're using Mark's stuff; my strong recommendation would be something like the Rhap4, a Symetrix Jupiter8 and proper calibration. Depending on the deal you get on the processors, you may be able to get setup for right around the price of the Trinnov alone.

Dan

I mainly use Bluray, but sometimes there may be a DVD thrown in there but that would be for the kids, and they don't know the difference between the two. I only watch bluray now.

Thanks for the suggestion , the jupiter8 looks like a nice bit of gear, but it still means I need a calibrator.

I think I am going to see what my options over here are for calibration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Fleener View Post

Japan Dave

You mentioned UPGRADEAILITY. If you want or need this, not a bad idea IMO, this will eliminate many of the lower priced units like the ADA and others. IIRC only Theta, Meridian, Krell(?), and Lexicon (limited) offer upgrades and only Theta has taken their product from day one to today. Theta IMO is the best company to support upgrades to their SSP, Casablanca, much to the chagrin of some here. They also offer DAC upgrades and options as well. You can also choose crossover types and placements for each speaker and up to 8.4 speakers as well. True fully balanced through and through, not some band-aide add on as others often do.

I hope this helps.

That is what originally drew me toward the Theta, upgradability and of corse the quality DAC's with a huge selection of channels.

Could ask a question if that is ok, could an end user setup the CBIIIHD? I know that is a difficult question, b/c it would depend on the skill level, but what I am asking is, does it need a proffesional with years of experience or could someone with a bit of time a patience master it?

Just posing another question, what are the options for automatic room EQ on a Theta CBHDIII?

Thanks
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post #20 of 66
2/3/11 at 2:59pm
Dave,

With that super, duper sub set up you're installing, you will need a calibrator on site. Auto cal would likely be pretty good (in the right SSP) for your main 7 speakers but not the subs. My experience is that you have to have an expert on site or the results will be random. My Halcro had a great Auto Cal mode. Great for everything but the subs. No automatic room eq will do it near justice to the type of subs (and their configuration) in which you installing. Mark Seaton spent hours tuning my subs with a TEF analyzer. THey were brilliant when he was done. It is a major deal for subs, particularly with your particular set up. I would simply plan on flying someone out. Once you do it, you won't ever have to change it unless you change speakers, subs. Moreover, they can save particular bass settings output, crossover,s etc into separate memories in a DSP unit. I think the Trinnov has almost 30 memories. Curt Hoyt (Trinnov) spent time with me at CEDIA going through it. I asked him about his own fee, and though he couldn't be precise, it looked like $1K for the day. Or consider having Mark fly out.
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post #21 of 66
2/3/11 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

That is what originally drew me toward the Theta, upgradability and of corse the quality DAC's with a huge selection of channels.Just posing another question, what are the options for automatic room EQ on a Theta CBHDIII?

Thanks

The Dirac has some strong advantages over any of these SSP, and a disadvantage. The DAC design has a family resemblance with the Theta, only it is far more current with newer and better DACs. It offers more channels, if offers digital out for every channel, it has integrated parametric EQ, and unlike the Theta it offers an excellent room eq. Although it is not upgradable (the Theta is perhaps the best unit out there from that perspective), the cost of the latest Theta HDMI upgrade and a couple of upgraded DACs will cost you more than the total cost of the Dirac A20 with Dirac Live.

Regarding Dirac Live, you might want to look at the thread, Peter from CINERAMAX (who only deals with extremely expensive equipment) was flabbergasted by its ability to room eq (he thought it was better than the Trinnov). In the event that you prefer your own EQ you could use the AP20's own parametric eq, or you could use its digital outs and use an external EQ, without needing to do a double conversion of analog to digital.

That being said, the AP20 does have what some may consider a serious short coming. Although their next firmware update will have matrix surround, it does not have PLIIx. If you that option is important to you, then the AP20 is none starter. If you think you may be able to do with their surround matrix (which will probably be excellent considering the people developing it), then you may want to investigate it further. In that thread you can ask questions from a couple of people directly involved in the design of the AP20 and Dirac Live, Carl Huff and Chris Ahlen.
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post #22 of 66
2/4/11 at 7:55am
Dave
Given enough time and a good ear I think anyone with reasonable sense could set up a CBIII and be very happy with it's results.

When it comes to acoustic work in a room this is best left to folks who know and even some of them are clueless when it comes to PROPER room speaker and listener seat setup. While many on this forum POO POO two channel set up first, it is in fact the only best way to determine where speakers need to go and the seat to hear them from. If all one is doing is nailing the front 3 on the wall and firing them through a perfed screen then understand how many limitations you have imposed on your systems sonics.

While having the speakers behind the screen has it's few debatable advantages overall it is a HUGE sonic crippler. This can be EASILY demonstrated with an A/B of good two channel music where so much depends on a proper setup to deliver sonic ecstasy. Why two channel? Because it is easier to hear what is going on and even a dull sense of hearing should be able to pick out the improvement. Once trained by better sonics they will become acute listeners and will be able to listen with intelligence and not needing 130db peaks to wow there dull sense of hearing.
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post #23 of 66
2/7/11 at 5:24am
Dave: Sign me up as agreeing with The Bland. DO NOT purchase any SSP without some kind of EQ. That leaves out the Theta but includes some very well respected brands.

In most rooms, a lower "quality" SSP with some form of EQ will be a better decision than a higher "quality" one with no EQ. And by lower quality, I don't mean some piece of crap. An example would be the Theta versus Classe (or ADA). Forget Theta.

In a room like yours with what you have invested, don't stop short. And while a room acoustician might be some help, passive treatment can only go so far when you started with some physical constraints in the first place (e.g. ceiling height). And Dennis Erskine has designed you a nice room. And since your speakers are "built in" moving speakers around is not an option.

Buy an EQ enabled SSP and have it calibrated by a knowledgeable person.
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post #24 of 66
2/7/11 at 6:05am
+1

It seems clear the the CBIII is rational choice for an SSP:

1. If you already have an old one and upgrade for $4K
2. Room doubles for music and HT is #2 in importance
3. Not acoustically treated for home theater
4. Prefer teflon
5. If you can live without the benefits of EQ
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post #25 of 66
2/7/11 at 6:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Dave: Sign me up as agreeing with The Bland. DO NOT purchase any SSP without some kind of EQ. That leaves out the Theta but includes some very well respected brands.

In most rooms, a lower "quality" SSP with some form of EQ will be a better decision than a higher "quality" one with no EQ. And by lower quality, I don't mean some piece of crap. An example would be the Theta versus Classe (or ADA). Forget Theta.

In a room like yours with what you have invested, don't stop short. And while a room acoustician might be some help, passive treatment can only go so far when you started with some physical constraints in the first place (e.g. ceiling height). And Dennis Erskine has designed you a nice room. And since your speakers are "built in" moving speakers around is not an option.

Buy an EQ enabled SSP and have it calibrated by a knowledgeable person.

I want to thank everyone so far with all the help and advise.

Ok, I have been on the net night and day trying to get every bit of information I can get on the pros and cons of no room EQ and this is what I have come up with so far. By no means does it mean I am correct and feel free to correct me if I am mistaken on anything. I think most people are in agreement that solely relying on an automated system is not idea and ultimately will need to be tweaked to get the desired results.

This means that if you are going the route of room EQ you will need something with flexibility and especially in my case with different size subs and having them needed to be crossed within the LFE channel. So I have come to the conclusion that for me at present stage I need something with EQ. But, I can't be flying in someone from the States to re-calibrate if something changes in my system. So where does that leave me?

I have looked a ADA and Classe and that was the direction I was going to go, especially the ADA with the Trinnov package. But I am now looking at the AP20 with the Dirac live room EQ that Raul GS mentioned earlier. I have talked quite a bit with Carl Huff who is one of the designers and it seems like a great piece of machinery, it has 16 channels that are all customizable and works with the Dirac live software which I think is a RTA to obtain a custom curve. And with my speakers being unmovable, this kind of flexibility is very welcome.

I know it is the road untraveled ,being something that has just made its way into the consumer market, but from what I have read and from talking to people who have heard the unit, it sounds fantastic. So that is where I am at right now.
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post #26 of 66
2/7/11 at 6:35am
The Dirac stuff looks very promising to me... but it appears very beta. is it a fully analog device? Is there HDMI?

I won't dissuade you from the Dirac as it has piqued my curiosity as well but it appears to be heavy on growth and updates and the last thing you want are unpromised features, bugs, and some real world testing... That said, fun stuff!

Perhaps, Carl can comment more on it.
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post #27 of 66
2/7/11 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

+1

It seems clear the the CBIII is rational choice for an SSP:

1. If you already have an old one and upgrade for $4K
2. Room doubles for music and HT is #2 in importance
3. Not acoustically treated for home theater
4. Prefer teflon
5. If you can live without the benefits of EQ

If those items are separated by "AND" then I agree. Otherwise I still would not consider the Theta.
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post #28 of 66
2/7/11 at 7:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

The Dirac stuff looks very promising to me... but it appears very beta. is it a fully analog device? Is there HDMI?

I won't dissuade you from the Dirac as it has piqued my curiosity as well but it appears to be heavy on growth and updates and the last thing you want are unpromised features, bugs, and some real world testing... That said, fun stuff!

Perhaps, Carl can comment more on it.

No it is digital with 4 HDMI 1.3, video has full pass through capabilities. It has been solely used for commercial applications which did not need to have consumer audio formats, but the promising thing about this machine is that formats like the new DTS NEO X (which it does not decode yet) can be upgraded at any time if the demand is there. And seeming as they are just starting to get into the consumer side of things I can say that I believe it will only be a matter of time until they decided to implement it. Also as the Dirac live get added features, you can update them as they come. I don't know a Room EQ, that will say add bass management and then allow you to upload that new data. With Audessey , you need to buy a whole new machine when I new feature is added.

I admit , it looks like a beta product for the consumer side of things, but with the background Carl has and being a piece of pro gear, I am not concerned.

If you read the data on the flexability on the Room EQ, you can do just about anything you want. It even will correct probelwms associated with the speaker itself. a quote from some literature Carl gave me.



I don't know, other room eq may also be able to do this, but from what I have seen nothing can. Again if I am wrong please let me know.
LL
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post #29 of 66
2/7/11 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

The Dirac ... appears very beta. is it a fully analog device? Is there HDMI?

Thebland,

You have to remember there are two units. A newer unit that is an analog input only (apparently this summer they will come out with a digital input version), and it serves only as a Dirac Live unit (i.e. a stand alone sophisticated room eq). Then there is the AP20, a SSP, that up to now was geared (and generally still is) for professional use. Accordingly, its only real disadvantage is the lack of PLIIx. They are supposedly in the process of developing a matrix themselves, which will likely be decent if not excellent (remember the players have a pretty good record in the industry). Also, as JapanDave noted, if there is a demand, they will be able to update the unit with commercial applications such as Neo. The process should be fairly painless, lets hope there is a demand for the Neo.

This unit is incredibly flexible. Not only can the user setup each output channel with x-overs and eq, but it can output the signal digitally if one chooses to have an outside DAC or something like a Trinnov (no need to convert the signal multiple times). However, as you noted, it is quite new in the consumer space, and despite its apparent ease of setup, you better than most now that these units rarely escape the bug parade. That being said, the unit can be updated in the field by the user, so that should help matters as bugs surface. The players involved (pros in the industry) suggests that they should be able to support this device. But still, there definitely is an element of risk, as there is in everything else. Hopefully, it will be my turn to take a risk with this unit in the summer.
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post #30 of 66
2/7/11 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Thebland,

You have to remember there are two units. A newer unit that is an analog input only (apparently this summer they will come out with a digital input version), and it serves only as a Dirac Live unit (i.e. a stand alone sophisticated room eq). Then there is the AP20, a SSP, that up to now was geared (and generally still is) to professional use. Accordingly, its only real disadvantage is the lack of PLIIx. They are supposedly in the process of developing a matrix themselves, which will likely be decent if not excellent (remember the players have a pretty good record in the industry). This unit is incredibly flexible. Not only can the user setup each output channel with x-overs and eq, but it can output the signal digitally if one chooses to have an outside DAC or something like a Trinnov (no need to convert the signal multiple times). However, as you noted, it is quite new in the consumer space, and despite its apparent ease of setup, you better than most now that these units rarely escape the bug parade. That being said, the unit can be updated in the field by the user, so that should help matters as bugs surface. The players involved (pros in the industry) suggests that they should be able to support this device. But still, there definitely is an element of risk, as there is in everything else. Hopefully, it will be my turn to take a risk with this unit in the summer.

Gotcah,

I f I understand this correctly, there is a newer analog only unit that is DIRAC LIVE only (DSPs). This is a full DSP like the TRINNOV, QSCs with all types of filtering, time alignment, etc??. So, being analog it contains A/Ds and D/As. This would be a unit, if I was interested, that would connect in after my SSP and I think I read there is a balanced version coming, too.

I imagine the digital version will only be TOS... no HDMI. Though digital would be great, I'm only HDMI in output (or is there a HDMI to multi channel TOS converter)?

Thanks...
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