Battlefield 3 - Page 244

The Platoon shows no pending members. Try again I guess. ECA-AVS is the name.

Already here, we drove that's why I tried taking it. Can't get on xbox live and from some quick research it may be because they are blocking certain MAC addresses. I don't really have the desire right now to try and figure it out so I will either play SP or just watch the tube.

USAS-12 with Frag Rounds....WOW

Haha this is pure awesome.

Sometimes this games is INFURIATING!

I'm not going to take the time to quote all of the posts I originally intended on replying to, rather I'll just throw my 2 out there...

There are different types of spawnkilling, some that I find extremely distasteful/f'ing lame, others that are simply a matter of dominance. Have I ever done it? Yes, and under certain circumstances (i.e. Valpo BC2) on the attackers side of it, well, there really wasn't much else to do. We'd push the enemy team until it became a game of killing them until our tickets were close to running out...in that scenario, it was a matter of our dominance of the other team, and I never really had a problem with that.

On the other hand, there is the kind of spawnkilling that I absolutely abhor, and have NOT taken part in, despite having many opportunities to do so. I am referring here to the jet whoring that some folks love to do. How f'ing lame of Dice to allow this sort of OP B.S, and shame on anyone who repeatedly exploits it. Face it, there is NO defense for a good pilot that wants to be a douche and spawnkill the opposing team's jet/vehicles. None. AA gun? Are you kidding me? Javelins? Nope, too slow. AA rockets? Not effective against someone who knows what they are doing. The only thing that can keep the jet off of your team's ass is your jet, which will never have the chance to take off when someone like Zath is on the other team. I have quite a few hours in the jet, and I can count on one hand how many times I have destroyed the enemy jet while it was on the ground. There is a code of ethics I try to play by, and I don't think it's foolishly utopian of me to do so. Am I naive enough to believe everyone I play with will share my views? No, but it certainly effects who I want to play this game with, and who I do not.

Agree 100%. Great post.

Well said, I agree completely.

Battlefield 3 Code of Ethics, as written by AVS forum:

1. Thou shalt not spawnkill.
2. Thou mayest spawnkill if thine enemies are weak and full of suck.
3. Thou shalt not play hard if on thine enemy team.
4. Thou may not MAV roadkill.
5. Thou shalt not use frag rounds on thine USAS.
6. Thou shalt not use the FAMAS with suppressor and foregrip.
7. Thou shalt not communicate a problem in thine party.
8. Thou must rather communicate a problem on thine Internets.
9. Thou may not utilize thy MAV as an elevator.
10. Thou must make it a point to sound holier than thou on said Internets.

Which is why I stopped playing with you, you asshat!

Okay here is the deal, and this is not trying to convince anyone to say spawnkilling is okay, but rather to show you another side to it.

It sucks, yeah I hate getting shot down in the plane while I'm taking off. When I played BF1943 it was SOP to spawnkill jets in the vast majority of games I played, both with friends and with randoms. The point of the game is to win, I understand that some of you don't think you should use spawnkilling to win, but still the point remains, you want to win the game. Air superiority is something that is earned, not just taken with cheap tactics. At the beginning of the round (in most cases, CQ) there are equal amounts of jets/vehicles on both sides (exceptions I know). More than likely if you are getting spawnkilled in a jet it is because the first pilot or two have been shot down by superior players on the other team. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it sounds like people are jealous of others skills and want them to not play to the best of their abilities.

Think about it this way, if a player like Zath always allowed jets to take off (and he generally does when I've played with him), he still gets the kill or the other pilot bails. What's the difference if he kills him in the beginning or 10 seconds later? That's 10 seconds he could have used to make another strafing run on enemy ground units to help his team win.

I don't really see much difference in spawnkilling a jet, versus a really good tank driver repeatedly killing another vehicle that comes into it's view of the spawn. Tanks spawnkill way more than jets in my experience.

While infantry and you see an enemy soldier looking away from you, do you wait for him to line his sights on you and fire before you fire to give him a fair chance? I know it's not exactly the same but the general premise is.

I'll ask again, WHEN is it okay to engage a jet or vehicle that is leaving the spawn area? And if there is some arbitrary point you are allowed to engage, who decides when that point is?

And lastly, here are some potential fixes to this issue, even though I don't think anything really needs fixed, but would be fine with either way.

1) Make jets invulnerable for the first 10 seconds after a pilot gets in. Won't be spawnkilled, but I'll be damned if I'm not going to try and stay on their tail for those 10 seconds so when they become invulnerable I blast them away.

2) Buff AA stationary units and add a mobile AA to more maps.

3) Make SOFLAM/Javelin combo more effective. Either by guaranteeing it is a OHK, or making it to where jets can't outmaneuver stingers/javelins as easily.

Given the atmosphere of the last couple pages, this does not appear to be a very well thought out post. I know it is in jest, but......to soon?

You don't think anything needs to be adjusted in regards to jets/choppers?

Nothing needs to be down as far as protecting the spawn. If they allow jets to be shot down in the first place then that will in itself protect the spawn.

The games been out for a while now, many more people are getting the aircraft unlocks and it's becoming a much more frequent thing to run into good pilots. The situation is only getting worse and it's almost impossible to shoot them down.
It's BS that a jet can blow up a tank with it's machine guns almost before the tank driver has a chance to react.
The problem is if you run into a good jet pilot (or even a chopper) it effectively renders every enemy vehicle useless and there isn't a single thing anyone on the opposite team can do to stop it.

We have had 5 guys dedicated to shooting down a jet with no luck. 1 person soflamming, 2 people with javelins, 1 person with a stinger and sometimes another dropping ammo.
That combination should be able to shoot down a jet. end of story.

If i could make changes related to spawn issues......

1. There should be an invisible line from the ground up at the spawn.

2. You still have the 10 seconds to exit this area.

3. If you are in the out of bounds zone you can not do anything offensive. No weapon use, no repairing.

The last match of the night there was this guy that I was gunning for in the chopper. He flies back to enemy spawn at Kharg and waits on the ground for the enemy jet to spawn and takes it out. During this time i politely sent him a message. He replied back about its not about spawn killing its about air superiority, so we dont get shot down by the jet like we did when you were flying....I replied back that he is a chickensh*t.

There's dominance spawnkilling, and then there is camping spawnkilling. I've got no problem with the first, either giving or receiving, but the second is just asshattery of the highest order.

If you (and your team) are just so damn good you've managed to push the other team's **** in - then that's on them. If you fly a helo to the enemy jet spawn, set down behind it, and then just shoot jets when they spawn, that's weak.

To use an example from TF2, where the line is a little clearer (and that is part of the problem here - if you are on the receiving end of a Zath ass-raping, it probably feels remarkably unfair. But if you watch the videos, taking out the enemy air assets are a tiny fraction of what he's doing, and doing so makes him more effective in providing CAS), if your enemy sets up a turret outside of one of your spawns, that's on your team for letting them pull that off, and it's on your team to bust out. If someone on the other team is exploiting a loophole in the rules to have one of your teammates (who is in on the exploit) heal him as a spy so he can enter your spawn and stab players the instant they spawn... that's troll level 1,000,000 douchbaggery.

I think we can all remember games of Rush in BF:BC2 where, as defenders, we were able to keep the attackers in their spawn area (or worse, when it happened to you). I remember trying to pick off players as they would parachute into the spawn, because there was literally nothing else to do.

Haha man this thread. Talk about a cycle. I can't remember which topic will come up next but it will be the 3rd or 4th time it does. Same as this one.

You can spawn in a jet, take off and come in behind the guy as he goes through the middle of the map but he can't keep an eye on when you are in the air.

Not to bash on you guys but I've yet to EVER<--- ehh about 6 years of BF now.... had a problem with those that are spawn camping. The chopper/jet will get blown up on the pad once or twice (3 if he is lucky) and it won't happen again. Sorry but it's truth. Ask lowgn, kabob, harpua, orange, uhhh insert anyone else in THAT "circle" that plays alot but just because you can't make it happen.. We do.

outside of that.. That's fine with me if people hate it, nothin wrong with that. Just more in the game, forces people to do what they are good at. Especially those randoms. I hate frag rounds and LMG's that handle like SMG's but oh well, I'll live.

I understand the frustration, I really do. Not many pilots can totally dominate the skies and ground like Zath do. If it's that much of an issue simply find another server like you did. People are going to play the game the way they want to play, they paid for the game just like everyone else. If DICE deems jet spawnkilling a problem they will fix it. The fact that they haven't says a lot to me.

This is epic douchbaggery. (The guy camping to kill the jet spawn.) It is fundamentally different from what Zath does. And it's exactly the example I was thinking of, as I've seen that happen on Kharg before. I don't think you can easily do much about it, since you can't get up there on foot, I don't think, and the AA can't see stuff that has landed on that road.

Still would like somebody to chime in when it is okay to engage a pilot or vehicle leaving the spawn.

9/10 times I will if I shot him down but he bailed before I got the kill. Don't care. If he didn't I usually won't. I pretty much only play conquest btw.

My whole argument really is more of the fact that there are huge imbalances with aircraft that cannot be countered. It's not really about "you" but more the game.

The reason the match with you stuck out was because of the entire situation. The "flying practice", half the team not going for MCOMs, being killed instantly when entering vehicles, etc. It was a very frustrating position to be in for us lowly folks on the ground. The only reason I responded to it on here is because you posted saying that we left and were pissed. If I had said something about it in game it would not have gone over well. I was pretty pissed off at that point and leaving to find another server was taking the high road.

The big issue I had was you were playing against a team of AVS'ers, you chose to not switch teams, and you proceeded to spawn rape us. I'm sorry but that's a douche move. Perhaps I should have said something in the party chat, but I didn't. If you try to see it from our perspective we were pretty pissed off, leaving just made sense. In a normal match I would have left IMMEDIATELY but being that it was a room full of my friends that I play with regularly I tried to stick it out. Was a huge mistake on my part.

I don't really care about any of the other stuff on the list, the USAS with frags is a bit overpowered and should be nerfed but IMO doesn't bother me that much.

No I don't mean when is it okay to kill them in the spawn, I mean at what point during their egress from spawn is it okay to try and take them out?

I still don't think your focusing on the real problem.
The only counter to a jet is a jet currently. The reason people get pissed off about spawn raping is because they are helpless.

Allow us to shoot down jets/choppers with teamwork. I make sure to emphasize teamwork because I don't think one guy with a stinger should be able to take down a good jet pilot.

If we are able to shoot down the enemy jet that's raping us then our jet can get in the air and hopefully provide support. If not we will have to shoot down the enemy jet again.

The difference between a jet spawn raping and beating a team so bad that you push them back into their base is that a jet can spawn rape while still losing the match. There's a big difference.

I get the point, the problem is it can just be hard to take down a really good jet pilot. That's just the way it is. I think what you are running into is a jet pilot with ECM jammer, if they are running this then no combination of javelin/soflam/stinger will work while that is activated. It is also the last unlock in the jet and should be powerful. Now maybe it is just a bit too powerful, but I've seen Zath taken down using SOFLAM/JAVELIN. I seriously don't care if it is changed or not, but if they buffed the AA gun and extended the range of the SOFLAM it could make it a bit easier to take out a really good pilot. But that is the nature of the beast, a really good pilot is a really good pilot, and sometimes they just are so good you can't take them out. Take your lumps and move on. I just don't see this problem as being so prevalent to be a real big issue. It happens occasionally but not enough for me to think the game needs to be changed.

This. These.

In its current state, the entire game comes down to the first wave of vehicles. I find it neither fun nor entertaining to know the match is won or lost in the first 20 seconds of the match, depending entirely upon the random chance that a pro or noob got the 0.0000000137 second jump on getting in said vehicle(s).

By making (air) vehicles invulnerable for a moment, a true pro could at least have a chance to turn the tide if noob/idiot got the first jet or heli. Imo, this should extend to tanks and other land vehicles as well.

The AA gun is practically worthless right now. 25% of your screen is blocked by rocks, another 10% by trees that you can't shoot down ala BC2, and another 15% has you looking directly into the sun. So, you've got 50% of your field of view to work with. Plus, the vertical movement is slower than hell. Any good pilot just goes vertical and you're screwed.

One jet and/or heli can put an entire team on lockdown. It's simply not fair that 6 guys (half a team!) can't take down one vehicle, regardless of their methods. I don't care if the pilot is good or even great, that shouldn't happen. Land vehicles can't do this, why should air?

Now, I know it's fun to fly around and kill everything in sight without a care in the world. I do it myself sometimes, if I'm lucky enough to have the opportunity. I've spawnkilled others that spawnkilled me. Is it fun? Yes. Is it fair? No. Do I do it to randoms? Yes. Do I do it to friends? NEVER.

Something should be done, these are a start in the right direction. Some will argue that spawnkilling is fine in that it's earned, but if a person, driver, pilot, or team is truly that good, adding invulnerability, better AA, or greater chance of air defense shouldn't change a thing...other than an occasional turning war, different flight route, or occasional repair. Not a big price to pay for a little fairness, imo.

Given the fact that I've been turned into the AVS Battlefield 3 devil/troll/d-bag, I feel I'm well within my rights to point out how stupid this is becoming. 5 years ago, I probably would've started flaming away at people, but I realize that there's no point to it.

I am getting tired of all these veiled attacks, though. Especially since I barely even do the things I'm constantly accused of. I have 5,700 jet kills. Yet people have the nerve to tell me I didn't earn them because I play below some imaginary ethical standard. I earned my 46th jet service star last night. I should be proud of that achievement, but now I'm wondering if it's even worth it to play anymore. I got spawnkilled myself by a guy with 2,500 jet kills. 2nd time I took off, blew him away, and he quit to find easier prey. I remained, took out vehicles on the ground, took out the jet whenever it came up to challenge me, etc etc etc. I didn't spawnkill. But no one knows because they weren't there.

And to whoever put on the following tags, thanks a lot. Definitely makes me feel warm inside.
-iflyjetsandlivewithmymom
-zath=raginghomo?
-zathstopwpawnkilling

WTF is this crap? Seriously? Are you guys like 10 years old? Grow the hell up and start acting like adults.

We can have a civil discussion about the game without resorting to this junk.

Please tell me your definition of spawn rape. To my knowledge, I killed you twice. One time I shot your tank when it was on the highway on Caspian. That is outside of your base and precisely where defending tanks will push up given the opportunity to spawntrap. The second time I killed you was while you were on foot by 2nd MCOM A. That is outside of your base. Both times I apologized because I didn't want to be a dick. You could've easily said something but chose to leave. Is there any other time I killed you?

Hoosier has chewed me out in the party before for spawntrapping his team in Grand Bazaar. So I switched tactics. We're still friends (I think). If you're that pissed off, just say so. Get it off your chest. I'm a grown adult. I can take it.

I agree jets shouldn't be able to spawnkill. FWIW, I have found the AA gun to be a pretty good deterrent, especially with another person using a stinger. Enough that I don't wander into the enemy base on Kharg or Firestorm rush (and all conquest maps) unless I'm trying to prove a point.

Totally agree with those that have mentioned balance issues. It is very frustrating how imbalanced the jets are. It is literally impossible to shoot down a reasonable/good pilot. Yet he can rape every vehicle you have in a single pass, and the better ones can rape you as you try to run around on foot as well. Every vehicle you have is rendered useless, and you can barely run around to take cover (if it's one of the best pilots).

You might say that it's fine, they are just good players and that's the way it goes -- that they are just better than you. I would almost tend to agree with that, HOWEVER, the way the jets are set up, it's practically impossible to even become a good pilot. You just can't get enough flying time unless you spawn camp the jet time after time (which gives no one else a chance at it). Not to mention that you literally need certain unlocks if you want to not get shot down instantly (air radar), which are hard/impossible to get becuase you can't get any flying time and the time you do get you spend getting shot down because you don't have the unlocks. It's a vicious cycle. The best pilots always seem to get into the jets in the first place, because in order to practice up, they had to get very accustomed to how and where they spawn, and how to whore their teammates out of getting into one. Since they have so much practice doing this, they almost always get the jet. Since they always get the jet, they have all the best unlocks and are naturally better at using it and have a very low likelihood of getting shot down, meaning they are in it the entire match, not allowing their teammates a turn to try it and hone their own skills, and not allowing the enemy team a chance to do much of anything. I don't consider this well balanced. At least if you could shoot them down, it could give other people a chance, and bring the ace pilots back into balance. If EA or anyone else wants to hide behind the "they are just better pilots/players than you, quit whining" excuse, then the very least they could do is offer a practice mode where you can learn to fly outside of MP. Then at least it could come down to skill as a pilot, instead of skill at being good at camping to get into the jets and ignoring the objectives and the rest of your team.

Choppers are actually becoming the same way as people unlock the best perks and learn how to use them. The viper with ECM is damn near impossible to shoot down as well if the pilot is using the right strategy and has the right gunner. Luckily most people are not super great with the chopper yet, so it's still possible to shoot down, but mark my words, in another month or two, if they do not make balance changes, the chopper will be as bad as the jets are now. People are just starting to learn the best ways to make them invulnerable and I've been seeing it more and more where even a full squad fo 4 cannot shoot them down (only time for one lock during their pass, and they ECM it and don't come back into range until ECM refreshes).

IMHO there are a couple balance changes that would go a long way:

1) Increase the range at which a stinger and/or javelin can lock onto a jet and chopper. This way you can get out at least 1 rocket more often, if not a couple, to increase your odds of shooting down the jet. IMO the jets and choppers should be fun and powerful, but a full squad of 4 people all coordinating together should be able to rape them out of the sky repeatedly and easily. This would seem fair to me. Jet and chopper whores could still get their fix in, just has to be against crappier teams, not against coordinated teams who know what they're doing.
2) When a jet is on the ground, whether occupied or not, it is invulnerable until it has been in the air for 10 seconds. During this timeframe, the weapons of the jet that is taking off are disabled. This gives the jets a real chance to get in the air, do some evasive maneuvers to shake their tale, and really makes it more about skill, so the player who is better at flying and fighting in a jet wins, not the player that is better at being a douchebag and spawn raping jets before they take off.

That's it IMO. Those two changes would take care of most of the balance issues I've seen. If they implement those, then things like the jet killing my tank in one pass feel more like it's my fault that I didn't shoot the jet down instead of EA's fault that it's impossible to avoid (because you can't shoot down the jet). But as it is, the games is only getting worse as more and more d-bags unlock the necessary perks to exploit the crap out of the air power. I like the game much better when it launched, when no one knew how to use the choppers and jets to great effect. I still remember the first time a jet killed me in a tank in one pass. It was shocking to me, and it happened more than a month after release. Now it's more surprising if I actually get to survive in a tank for more than a few seconds before I'm killed in a single pass.

I don't remember every time I died, it was the night before last and my memory isn't that good. I do know I was killed at least 2 times inside of the base, one of those I had only moved maybe 10 feet from the tank's spawn location. Honestly I don't want to go back and forth over this match anymore what's done is done, we can talk about game balance/tactics or whatever all day but this won't accomplish anything.
I'll just stand by my statement that playing against a group of AVS'ers in that manner is not cool.

Serious question though: Can you tell me what tactic we can use to take you down? Either in a jet or a chopper with all the unlocks.
Kabob has gotten very good in a chopper and it was pretty hard to take him down last night. I'm assuming they were running ECM jammer and the gunner had flares.
Are we not doing something right by having 2 javelins/soflam and even a stinger? It seems like the jet/chopper either flies outside of our range or outruns the javelins until eventually they make a pass and kill our soflam.

I'm with you PJ on a different mode to learn jets. Something like BF 1943's air superiority mode would be awesome in this game.