AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Floorstanders for big room, corner placement, 2.1 music, $2k budget
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Floorstanders for big room, corner placement, 2.1 music, $2k budget

post #1 of 64
2/4/11 at 8:13am
Thread Starter 
I'm looking for suggestions and recommendations for a pair of floorstanding/tower speakers to replace my Energy RC-30s. The Energies sound OK, but I feel they are too wimpy for the massive room in which they sit. Our main floor is basically completely open, nearly 30x60, with 10 foot ceilings. The living area is roughly 23x27. Because of the somewhat awkward floorplan, the TV + speakers have to go in the corner. I know this is sub-optimal for any speaker, but that's why I'm here. I'm looking to get some ideas of speakers that are known to be less sensitive to placement, and also have enough "guts" to fill a huge room.

The top of my budget is about $2k for the speakers, although I'd prefer to spend less.

These speakers will be used for music, games and TV/movies, but the emphasis is on music. We listen to just about everything: classic rock, blues, metal, classical, flamenco, trance, etc.

Almost everything is sourced from the home theater PC: SPDIF into a Harman Kardon HK-3490, acting as a pre-amp. A QSC RMX 2490 acts as the power amp. I also have an old Paradigm PDR-10 sub, also slated for replacement (but that's another discussion).

As much as I'd like to say looks don't matter, I unfortunately can't. The ideal look is understated, and the ideal finish is a matte black. The look and black ash finish of the current RC-30s works just fine.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 64
2/4/11 at 8:41am
JBL 6332. JTR T8.
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 64
2/4/11 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_garman View Post

I'm looking for suggestions and recommendations for a pair of floorstanding/tower speakers to replace my Energy RC-30s. The Energies sound OK, but I feel they are too wimpy for the massive room in which they sit. Our main floor is basically completely open, nearly 30x60, with 10 foot ceilings. The living area is roughly 23x27. Because of the somewhat awkward floorplan, the TV + speakers have to go in the corner. I know this is sub-optimal for any speaker, but that's why I'm here. I'm looking to get some ideas of speakers that are known to be less sensitive to placement, and also have enough "guts" to fill a huge room.

The top of my budget is about $2k for the speakers, although I'd prefer to spend less.

These speakers will be used for music, games and TV/movies, but the emphasis is on music. We listen to just about everything: classic rock, blues, metal, classical, flamenco, trance, etc.

Almost everything is sourced from the home theater PC: SPDIF into a Harman Kardon HK-3490, acting as a pre-amp. A QSC RMX 2490 acts as the power amp. I also have an old Paradigm PDR-10 sub, also slated for replacement (but that's another discussion).

As much as I'd like to say looks don't matter, I unfortunately can't. The ideal look is understated, and the ideal finish is a matte black. The look and black ash finish of the current RC-30s works just fine.

In a space that large I think you're gonna have to look at high efficiency designs. There may not be too many choices in your price range that can fill up a room that size so you may want to check out the used market(audiogon and so on). The ones that come to mind right now are JTR S8's and Klipsch Heresy's. I'm certain there are others but right now I'm drawing a blank(can't wait to get home I guess).

Also, you may want to at least check out some speakers used for sound reinforcement. Like these for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

JBL 6332. JTR T8.

As much as I like these choices, they're a little too expensive unless he can find them used.
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 64
2/4/11 at 10:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

JBL 6332. JTR T8.

Those look nice, but unfortunately, break my budget (note that my budget is for the pair of speakers, not each).

Also, I'd prefer floorstanders... I'm not completely opposed to bookshelves, but they add the extra cost for stands.
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 64
2/4/11 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_garman View Post

Those look nice, but unfortunately, break my budget (note that my budget is for the pair of speakers, not each).

$2200 for the JTRs & $1900 for the JBLs.
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 64
2/4/11 at 10:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post

In a space that large I think you're gonna have to look at high efficiency designs. There may not be too many choices in your price range that can fill up a room that size so you may want to check out the used market(audiogon and so on). The ones that come to mind right now are JTR S8's and Klipsch Heresy's. I'm certain there are others but right now I'm drawing a blank(can't wait to get home I guess).

Is high efficiency absolutely necessary? Can low efficiency be compensated for with more power?

I'll say that right now, I'm actually powering the Energies directly with the HK-3490 (the power amp is on order). The sound isn't bad by any means, but on some sources, the HK has to be pushed near the max volume for adequate sound. And I'm really only concerned about having things sound good in the living area.

FWIW, here is the floorplan of our house, and here is a detail of the living area.

I'm not trying to set any SPL records or anything. What I'm really looking for is a huge soundstage, or at least big enough to mostly fill the living area. I know this requires careful speaker placement and room treatments... but, unfortunately, we just don't have any options with regards to placement. And as for treatments, that's something I have yet to read up on and have more scrutiny with regards to WAF. So I figure it's easiest to start with a shortlist of hopefully forgiving speakers.

Quote:


As much as I like these choices, they're a little too expensive unless he can find them used.

I should have mentioned that I am open to buying used.

Thanks again!
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 64
2/4/11 at 11:55am
Goldenear Triton 2, it's so hot, you might have to pay the MSRP $2.5k to get a pr.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 64
2/4/11 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_garman View Post

Is high efficiency absolutely necessary? Can low efficiency be compensated for with more power?

High efficiency speakers sure make it a lot easier (and cheaper in my book) Do some math. Take 98 db speakers and 104 db speakers. How loud do you want it "X" feet away. I don't remember the math, I think you double the watts to gain 3 db's BUT, you lose 6 (I think) db's of sound for every doubling of distance. Add up the cost of the speakers AND the bigger amps you need verses the more efficient speakers.

I'll say that right now, I'm actually powering the Energies directly with the HK-3490 (the power amp is on order). The sound isn't bad by any means, but on some sources, the HK has to be pushed near the max volume for adequate sound. And I'm really only concerned about having things sound good in the living area.

That's essentially my point. Mate that SAME HK with some 104 db speakers and you will have to turn it up far less.

I'm not trying to set any SPL records or anything. What I'm really looking for is a huge soundstage, or at least big enough to mostly fill the living area. I know this requires careful speaker placement and room treatments... but, unfortunately, we just don't have any options with regards to placement.

It also requires a speaker that is large enough (and strong enough) to move the appropriate amount of air. I'd suggest you look into a used pair of Klipsch LaScalas. All horn loaded, VERY efficient, about 104 db's with 1 watt input AND, the wife can put doilies on top of them or maybe a lamp!

You should at least hear what something like LaScalas can do before ruling them out. Get them now....add a subwoofer later and you will put me into your will!
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 64
2/4/11 at 2:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post
Is high efficiency absolutely necessary? Can low efficiency be compensated for with more power?

High efficiency speakers sure make it a lot easier (and cheaper in my book) Do some math. Take 98 db speakers and 104 db speakers. How loud do you want it "X" feet away. I don't remember the math, I think you double the watts to gain 3 db's BUT, you lose 6 (I think) db's of sound for every doubling of distance. Add up the cost of the speakers AND the bigger amps you need verses the more efficient speakers.

I'll say that right now, I'm actually powering the Energies directly with the HK-3490 (the power amp is on order). The sound isn't bad by any means, but on some sources, the HK has to be pushed near the max volume for adequate sound.

That's essentially my point. Mate that SAME HK with some 104 db speakers and you will have to turn it up far less.
Understood, that makes sense. I can't remember what the quietest setting on the HK is, but the loudest is 0, and we often run it around -20. So there's definitely still some headroom left. But my preference would be for our typical listening to be around 1/3 to 1/2 of max volume (i.e. I want a fair amount of headroom).

We can simplify the math, since distance is fixed (can't re-arrange anything). I'm looking at changing the power amp section from the HK's 125 WPC at 8-ohms to the QSC's 450 WPC. That's practically doubling the wattage twice, so in theory a 6 dB gain with the same sensitivity speakers (the RC-30s are 92 dB / 8 ohm). The QSC is well over 4x as powerful as the HK at 4 ohms.

My point here is that it looks to me like going up in speaker efficiency certainly won't hurt me at all, but it may not be necessary. My current setup is loud enough, but I feel it's lacking in presentation and/or sound stage. How does loudness relate to those qualities?

These are honest questions/comments, I'm not trying to argue, just relay my thinking---hoping to be set straight if I'm off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post
It also requires a speaker that is large enough (and strong enough) to move the appropriate amount of air. I'd suggest you look into a used pair of Klipsch LaScalas. All horn loaded, VERY efficient, about 104 db's with 1 watt input AND, the wife can put doilies on top of them or maybe a lamp!

You should at least hear what something like LaScalas can do before ruling them out. Get them now....add a subwoofer later and you will put me into your will!
They are too wide. If you take a look at the schematic I posted above, I really don't have much room on either side of the media console. I'd say the speakers can't be much over 12" wide.
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 64
2/4/11 at 2:41pm
The rc-30's just *aren't* big and powerful enough for that room. A more powerfull ampflier is going to really push those speakers the max and they may have trouble handling that much power. I'd say go with a set of these:
http://www.jr.com/klipsch/pe/KLP_RF83_hy_CH/

It was tough to find the sensitivity of them but I found a reference to 100db.
With 3 8" woofters and high sensitivity I have no doubt these will fill your room better and sound better than the energy speakers (although that is subject to preference).
I've heard lots of good things about the klipsch reference speakers.
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 64
2/4/11 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_garman View Post
They are too wide. If you take a look at the schematic I posted above, I really don't have much room on either side of the media console. I'd say the speakers can't be much over 12" wide.
My apologies...I missed that until after I posted. They would indeed become.... well, the word roadblocks comes to mind?

Reply
Reply
post #12 of 64
2/4/11 at 3:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post
My apologies...I missed that until after I posted. They would indeed become.... well, the word roadblocks comes to mind?
No problem! I didn't put it in the drawing, but the the front door to the house is at the bottom center. That shallow area between the door and the actual living area (with the stairs on left/closet on right) is like a little foyer.

So having the entertainment center spill out into the foyer might not fly with the wife. In fact, I don't think I could tolerate that even for a bachelor pad!
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 64
2/7/11 at 8:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

$2200 for the JTRs & $1900 for the JBLs.

Where can a pair of LSR6332 be found for $1900?
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 64
2/9/11 at 6:05am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

JBL 6332. JTR T8.

I did some reading on these two suggestions (mostly the Triple 8). What concerns me is low-end frequency handling. The Triple 8s only go down to 70 Hz and the 6332s down to 60 Hz. So with these speakers, a sub becomes a necessity, rather than an option (as with a full-range speaker).

As I said, I currently have a wimpy sub, and am planning on buying a "real" sub (thinking along the lines of HSU VTF-3 Mk 3). My original thinking was that my speakers would provide most of the frequency spectrum, and the sub would just be there to "help" with the low-end. But in this pro monitor scheme, the sub's duty isn't just to "help" but actually be completely responsible for the lows.

So then I wonder, with this massive room (basically the whole ground floor of the house, nearly 60x30x10), will one sub be enough? I think most people would say that if I want to do it right, one sub would not be enough. Unfortunately, I have neither the budget nor the room (nor the wife approval) for more than one sub.

In short: would bass be lacking using two pro monitors and one sub? That is, compared to two full-range speakers (e.g. towers) and one sub?
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 64
2/9/11 at 6:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwolfe38 View Post

The rc-30's just *aren't* big and powerful enough for that room. A more powerfull ampflier is going to really push those speakers the max and they may have trouble handling that much power. I'd say go with a set of these:
http://www.jr.com/klipsch/pe/KLP_RF83_hy_CH/

It was tough to find the sensitivity of them but I found a reference to 100db.
With 3 8" woofters and high sensitivity I have no doubt these will fill your room better and sound better than the energy speakers (although that is subject to preference).
I've heard lots of good things about the klipsch reference speakers.

Klipsch seems to be one of those polarizing brands, people love 'em or hate 'em.

Many years ago, when I was shopping for my first "real" speakers, there were only two small audio shops in my town (not counting Best Buy and Circuit City). One sold Paradigm and the other sold Klipsch. This is back before I read AVS Forum, and didn't know one brand from another. I took my own CDs to the shops, and just sat and listened to speakers for long periods of time. I still remember finding the Klipsch's overly bright.

On the one hand, I put a lot of stock in that audition from many years ago, because it was an "honest" listen---I didn't know enough about brands or anything to be biased. On the other hand, my budget was much lower then, and I'd like to think my listening skill have continued to refine ever since.

Anyway, point is, I'm sure they deserve another listen, but I can't help but be biased. I dabbled in DIY speaker building a couple years ago, and built some speakers that were definitely overly bright. That was the first time I truly experienced listening fatigue and it sucks! After about 30--45 minutes of listening to my poorly tuned DIY speakers, the music ceased to be enjoyable, and I'd start to get a headache.
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 64
2/9/11 at 6:27am
Thread Starter 
I thought for sure that soliciting suggestions for floorstanders with a $2k budget would result in at least one mention of the Salk Songtower. At least it seems that they come up in every other similar thread. Anyway, it's hard not consider the Songtower, given the overwhelming number of glowing reviews. Their design and user commentary also suggest they are less sensitive to placement than other speakers. My only concern: only two five inch drivers---superficially, not much difference than my current Energy RC-30s. And lower efficiency. Would the Songtowers be able to keep up in my big room?
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 64
2/9/11 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_garman View Post

I thought for sure that soliciting suggestions for floorstanders with a $2k budget would result in at least one mention of the Salk Songtower. At least it seems that they come up in every other similar thread. Anyway, it's hard not consider the Songtower, given the overwhelming number of glowing reviews. Their design and user commentary also suggest they are less sensitive to placement than other speakers. My only concern: only two five inch drivers---superficially, not much difference than my current Energy RC-30s. And lower efficiency. Would the Songtowers be able to keep up in my big room?

Matt,

I am listening to my SongTowers as I type and they are excellent speakers IMO. But my room is much smaller than yours at 14' D x 17' W with the room opening into another room on one side. I would suggest you call Jim Salk and talk to him about your room size and what you are looking for in a speaker. You could also join over at the Audio Circle and post your questions in the Salk speaker circle as well.

http://www.salksound.com/

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=82.0

Bill
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 64
2/9/11 at 7:01am
Well, there is always the option of just stepping up to the RC-50's. They are very very cheap at wwstereo right now. Not sure if they would be a big enough step up for you, but it would leave with plenty of money left to get yourself a nice sub for music like a Rythmik F15 or FV15.
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 64
2/9/11 at 7:05am
How about some Klipsch RF-7 II's?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....s-Free-shippin
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 64
2/9/11 at 8:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicHSAD View Post
Well, there is always the option of just stepping up to the RC-50's. They are very very cheap at wwstereo right now. Not sure if they would be a big enough step up for you, but it would leave with plenty of money left to get yourself a nice sub for music like a Rythmik F15 or FV15.
I'm actually sort of kicking myself now, as when I bought the RC-30s, I wasn't aware of the deal on the RC-50s. The 30s were bought quickly, as we needed something quick to go with the new media console (and TV), and I saw the RC-30s advertised for the $400/pair closeout deal. Had I looked a little closer, I would have seen the RC-50 deal as well.

I'm on the lookout for a deal on the RC-70, but those seem few and far between as of late.
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 64
2/9/11 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_garman View Post
I'm actually sort of kicking myself now, as when I bought the RC-30s, I wasn't aware of the deal on the RC-50s. The 30s were bought quickly, as we needed something quick to go with the new media console (and TV), and I saw the RC-30s advertised for the $400/pair closeout deal. Had I looked a little closer, I would have seen the RC-50 deal as well.

I'm on the lookout for a deal on the RC-70, but those seem few and far between as of late.
Yeah if you could find a good deal on the RC-70's it would be ideal. I have them myself and they are really good. The RC series is so cheap nowadays that it is hard to find a better value elsewhere.
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 64
2/9/11 at 9:37am
You should also consider some of the Swans line; Diva 6.1 or 6.2, for example.
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 64
2/9/11 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_garman View Post

I did some reading on these two suggestions (mostly the Triple 8). What concerns me is low-end frequency handling. The Triple 8s only go down to 70 Hz and the 6332s down to 60 Hz. So with these speakers, a sub becomes a necessity, rather than an option (as with a full-range speaker).

As I said, I currently have a wimpy sub, and am planning on buying a "real" sub (thinking along the lines of HSU VTF-3 Mk 3). My original thinking was that my speakers would provide most of the frequency spectrum, and the sub would just be there to "help" with the low-end. But in this pro monitor scheme, the sub's duty isn't just to "help" but actually be completely responsible for the lows.

So then I wonder, with this massive room (basically the whole ground floor of the house, nearly 60x30x10), will one sub be enough? I think most people would say that if I want to do it right, one sub would not be enough. Unfortunately, I have neither the budget nor the room (nor the wife approval) for more than one sub.

In short: would bass be lacking using two pro monitors and one sub? That is, compared to two full-range speakers (e.g. towers) and one sub?

The limited frequency response on these boxes serves a few purposes, not least of which is power handling. A full range speaker will not do reference levels at the edges of its rated frequency response without threatening the life of the speaker. Basically, your requirements have priced you out of full range speakers.
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 64
2/9/11 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post

Where can a pair of LSR6332 be found for $1900?

Looks like they fixed it . Gigasonic had them for $1900/pr. I wonder if anyone got the deal.
Reply
Reply
post #25 of 64
2/9/11 at 1:31pm
Matt,

Looking at your floor plan it looks like you have the room to pull all of your furniture closer to the media center. You could swap around the sofas placing the larger one where the smaller one is. Then put your recliner to the right of the smaller sofa (replacing the end table). This would place all the seating areas closer to the media center and placing the recliner closer to the sweet spot. It seems you have plenty of room to get creative. I have seen quite a few pictures of large rooms setup this way. Its worth a shot.

Bill
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 64
2/9/11 at 1:50pm
How about a pair of these: http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/...ed07aa70af2596

Did a bit of research and these look like they dig deep and can fill a large room (especially for the size).
Reply
Reply
post #27 of 64
2/9/11 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

Looks like they fixed it . Gigasonic had them for $1900/pr. I wonder if anyone got the deal.

Dammit, already own three of them and would have bought 7 more at $950 each.
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 64
2/9/11 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggie View Post

You should also consider some of the Swans line; Diva 6.1 or 6.2, for example.

Yes, those look interesting. However, the 6.x isn't available in black. I've been watching the Swan owner's thread. The Diva 5.0 and D50 were just announced, and the appear to have the matte black finish I'm looking for. Since I'm not in a big hurry, I'll wait and see what folks' impressions of them are.
Reply
Reply
post #29 of 64
2/9/11 at 5:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

The limited frequency response on these boxes serves a few purposes, not least of which is power handling. A full range speaker will not do reference levels at the edges of its rated frequency response without threatening the life of the speaker. Basically, your requirements have priced you out of full range speakers.

Makes sense. But what do you think about my other question: can I get by with the pro audio speakers (with their deliberately limited range) and only one sub?
Reply
Reply
post #30 of 64
2/9/11 at 6:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

The limited frequency response on these boxes serves a few purposes, not least of which is power handling. A full range speaker will not do reference levels at the edges of its rated frequency response without threatening the life of the speaker. Basically, your requirements have priced you out of full range speakers.

Actually, looks like JTR makes something that might be the best of both worlds for me: the Quintuple. Basically the Triple 8 with two more 8 inch speakers. Same high efficiency as the T8, but a claimed low-end of 56 Hz. And ridiculous power handling.

If only they were a bit cheaper... or maybe I could stretch my budget a bit...
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Floorstanders for big room, corner placement, 2.1 music, $2k budget