The official "Theta" thread

So, just curious, has anyone had any experience with the new CBIII-HD??


Jim

Just curious, has anyone had experience with the Theta Generation VIII Series 2 DAC with the C3 HD?

Steve:

Fedex the Gen 8 to me and I will let you know

You can't afford one???

Are you doing two channel or music via the CB3 HD, or have you got a separate stereo preamp with home theater bypass??

No I can't, I still have my six shooter with my Theta compli

I have my HD upgrade for about a week and it has been flawless in a 5.1 setup with 2 extreme dacs and no Gen 8, but I suspect I will be getting one. The setup was easier than before and sound pure Theta, although I am hampered by having no sub right now--out for amp repair. Dialogue is clean and sharp with movies and red book CD's 'vibrant' with HDMI. I have a sixshooter which will be integrated into the system soon, but am enjoying it just as it is right now. I was using the Classe 800 prior to this, and while the Classe is very good(much better than the 600), for me the Theta gets the nod. Probably doesn't hurt that I am using all Theta amps, Citadel 1.5's for the front, enterprise center, and high power dreadnaught for the sides. Theta did their homework on the operating software--no clicks, pops, freezing up, or whatever.

Note: Just got this DAC off Audiogon used and it arrived 2-4-2011. I am gonna post stuff as I do stuff with it. For now my Theta CB3 SSP and Six shooter is out of my system, as is my PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (PWD) and Bridge. I am awaiting my upgraded Theta CB3 HD! I am not necessarily AB comparing the PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport (PWD) & PWT or Marantz UD9004 & PWD combos and how they sound to using the PWT or UD9004 with the Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC (Gen 8 V2). I know how my system sounds and if I am moved and really like how something sounds. My concern is long term happiness and enjoyment. Lets see if the Gen 8 V2 gives me this nirvana in two channel!


MY 2011 THETA DIGITAL LOG - Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC

1-30-2011

Took my components in my three Michael Green audio video racks out completely. Took out all cables and power cords. Unscrewed, adjusted shelves, and rescrewed to fit components on how I wanted to rearrange them. Put everything back up. My right hip and legs hurt a good two days doing this but is it worth it – YES!

Right Michael Green AV rack, top to bottom: Marantz UD9004; PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport; Integra HD DVD player; DirecTV HD DVR #1; PS Audio Power Plant Premier.

Center Michael Green AV rack, top to bottom: CB3 HD (will be placed there when comes back from Theta); HVC D-VHS VCR; DirecTV HD DVR #2.

Left Michael Green AV rack, top to bottom: Lumagen Radiance XE (above top shelf); Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC (will be placed there when arrives, just purchased on Audiogon); Theta Six Shooter; APC S15 power conditioner.

I am not running anything using the Six Shooter for now.
.
2-3-2011

Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC arrived today!

I connected to the Theta Generation VIII V2 DAC:
1 – coaxial digital – Marantz UD9004
2 – balanced digital – PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport (PWT)
3 – toslink – DirecTV HD DVR (set to stereo PCM)
4 – pair of balanced analog cables – Marantz UD9004

I went into the DAC’s setup menu and changed what I needed to. I set the DAC to use jitter jail instead of the standard reclocking.

After maybe 2 hours of playing in stereo, I started to do some listenin’.

Listened to CD of Roseanne Cash “The List” initially via UD9004 digital coxial. Easily as good or better than I remember via long term memory when I used the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (PWD). I noted that the volume seemed to go higher, cleaner, more effortless. Had to go out for a few hours. Came back, played same CD using PWT, also sounded great. Which one is better? Heck if I know. I am just enjoying and not worrying about comparing for now.

However, I tried a Reference Recordings HRX 176-24 disc via PS Audio PW Transport, connected by Cardas balanced digital cable, but no sound. Theta’s website says the Gen VIII V2 has 24 bit/192 KHz DA conversion. So why doesn’t it handle the HRX 176-24? This is not a deal breaker for me – I have 8 HRX discs. I found a Secrets of Home Theater review online in this regard:

"JVS: Can the Gen. VIII handle 24/176.4 and 24/192 files?
DR: No, only because it’s limited by a receiver chip that’s on its own little board. That’s one of the things we’re looking at changing, which would take it up to 176.4 and 192"

I played the Neil Young blu ray disc of his 1971 live concert, “Live at Massey Hall”, via UD9004, the PCM 2.0 track (the blu ray menu says they offer a 192-24 stereo and also a 96-24 stereo track if the blu ray player can’t play 192-24.) over coaxial digital cable. Sounds great! Certainly as good as when I did this analog out from the UD9004 into Six Shooter. I also tried this same blu ray disc, via UD9004, the stereo analog XLRs. But the Theta DAC is easily just better, more relaxed, cleaner. Wonderful! And the stereo analog XLRs is no slouch at all, and sound like I remember it pre Gen VIII V2 DAC.

Now for “Flute Mystery”, Norwegian 2L’s blu ray & SACD combo package. I put on the blu ray disc. UD9004’s menu shows LPCM 96-24. Sounds great! Again I briefly tried the UD9004 XLR analog out but doesn’t sound as good to my ears! Though the analog sounded like it did via the Six Shooter when I had my CB3 Six Shooter combo. Can’t wait to get the CB3 HD back so I can play the DTS HD Master track!

Good night!

2-4-2011

Played some of AIX DVD-A 96-24 disc “Cheryl Bentyne”. The PWT won’t play this disc, the Marantz does play this disc. I selected stereo 96-24 track and I set the volume levels of the coaxial digital and analog stereo XLR inputs to the Gen 8, from the Marantz, approximately the same by using the “offset” feature in the Gen 8 setup menu. With equalized volume, I couldn’t differentiate between the two inputs.

Next, played the DVD-A disc of Emmylou Harris “Producers Cut”. Again, only playable on the Marantz. I selected the stereo 96-24 track. Sounded as good as ever via the coaxial digital input to Gen 8. Again, I really couldn’t differentiate between the coaxial digital and stereo analog XLR inputs. They are equally outstanding.

I continue to feel that the overall sonics are somewhat better and volumewise more effortless than when I had the Six Shooter in the system paired with the Marantz – but I will not know for sure unless and until at some point I decide to put the Six Shooter back in at least for demo purposes.

2-5-2011

Playing CD of Emmylou Harris “Spyboy”. I alternated between playing some cuts on the PWT and the Marantz, with the later alternating between coaxial digital and analog stereo XLR. Just as in my system prior to the Theta Gen 8, when I used the Six Shooter, the Marantz is better – voices are more “microphonic” like a live performance (this is a live performance), Everything just sound more “right”. Yea, the Marantz is simply more “magical”. And the Marantz whether by analog stereo XLR or coaxial digital sounds marvelous but I defy anyone to differientiate between the two, they sound the same to me.

Now for the XRCD of Jacintha “Here’s To Ben”. My audiologic-brain response is the same as for “Spyboy” above, except perhaps even more so due to the top notch recording quality of this XRCD.

Keep in mind since for now I am “only” two channel with no subwoofer, that I am letting my brain ignore the added kick to low bass I get when my Aerial subs are in use. I know from experience that this is a real advantage to using digital v. analog stereo out of the Marantz. And of course the CB3 HD, when I get it, will allow me to have Extreme DACs for the rest of 5.3 channels (front left and right, front center, surround left and right, three subs) “synthesized” per DPL2 or DTS Neo.

Now to try a SACD – Doobie Bros “Takin’ It to the Streets”. One of my all time favorites since my second year of law school when it came out. Playing the SACD stereo track via Marantz, via stereo analog XLR, sounds very nice. If I switch to coaxial digital, I get nothing, since I am playing the SACD stereo track and as the Gen 8 doesn’t convert DSD. Switching to the CD track, still is very nice and listenable, but not as good as SACD! Whats interesting though is that playing it in redbook, the Marantz’ internal DAC conversion, analog XLR out, sounds equivalent to coaxial digital from the Marantz with the Gen 8 doing the conversion. In my “prior” setup with the Marantz to PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (PWD) via coaxial digital, then analog XLR out to Six Shooter, vs Marantz stereo analog XLR out to Six Shooter, the Marantz digital out was easily superior musically. But now with CD the sonics are virtually indistinguishable. Is this due to the superiority of the Gen 8 over the Six Shooter as an analog preamp???

Now been listenin’ to Steely Dan “Two Against Nature” DVD-A in stereo 96-24 via Marantz, switching some between coaxial digital and stereo analog XLR. Again, the two inputs are simply indistinguishable. Sounds as good or better than ever! Probably better than ever as I’m only playing the stereo track, where in my prior CB3 and Six Shooter system using Marantz multi-channel analog out I listed in multi-channel DVD-A. Just think how much even better it will be when I get the CB3 HD so with the CB3 HD & Gen 8 V2 combo I will be able to do multi-channel DVD-A including whatever hi pass/low pass bass crossover I choose!!! And being able to throw my Aerial subs in the mix. WOW!

Now listenin’ to Steely Dan “Gaucho” SACD in stereo via Marantz stereo analog XLRs. Again, simply outstanding. Can’t wait to make it even better once I get the CB3 HD so I can play in 5.3 (I have three subs) multi-channel SACD!!! AGAIN WOWEE! This is really nice!!@@@ Next I played some of the CD (Mobile Fidelity) of “Gaucho”. Most important, though sounds great, played by Marantz, sounding equivalent whether using Marantz analog stereo XLRs or coaxial digital, clearly not as good sounding as the SACD was. But if I wasn’t comparing SACD v CD the CD would still be excellent and moving!

The more I listen to stuff, the more I see that I will be selling both the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and Transport. The Marantz coaxial digital out is clearly superior on redbook used with the Gen 8 compared to the PWT. And using the Gen 8 as a preamp, the Marantz coaxial digital out vs the Marantz stereo analog XLR out sounds the same via the Gen 8. The Marantz is most impressive indeed as is everything about the Gen 8 (except that the Gen 8 currently doesn't do 176-24 or 192-24, though my understanding is that Theta simply needs to replace a receiver chip to accomplish this and hopefully at some point in the near future Theta will do this, so that the Gen 8 can play everything. Nice if Theta would add a port like USB, firewire, etc for music from a computer. My initial research indicates that per a Secrets of Home Theater Gen 8 review in 2009, the Halide Design USB to SPDIF Bridge (up to 96-24) for $450.00 works well for quaity sonics. They also noted the Wavelength 192 kHz Bridge, but thats more expensive and the Gen 8 currently can only do up to 96-24.

I have a deal for a Gen VIII series I. Not sure if you guys remember but the original Gen VIII was still better than the Xtreme dacs. Of course I plan to have it upgraded to series 2. Yeah, I b'en talking to Steve.

So what's the deal with the Gen VIII pre/DAC combo for sound quality?

From what I gather, we use a CIII-HD, no DACs inside, a digital output card (or two) that has two channels assigned to each output, and each output is fed to one Gen VIII which in turn acts as the DAC and volume control?

The Theta is the master volume, the Gen VIII is the per-channel volume/DAC, effectively bypassing the rather crappy volume controls found in home theater processors? If so...sounds good.

That is it exactly. Ultimate set-up. One could add something like the Z-systems digital parametric EQ on the digital outs as well before the Gen VIII dacs.

Man, it was so nice for the few days that there were no Theta posts.
Ken

Bulldogger, just be careful here. You must update the Gen VIII to V2 if you plan on using it as a Pre/DAC, as the Preamp section of the original was not very good. We tested one back then, and loved it as a DAC, but the Pre was mediocre at best. This was verified by John B at Theta. They didn't anticipate at that time that it would be used as the Analogue control center of a system, and so didn't put the $$$ in the Pre section. We were recommending the DAC only model back then. The V2 is another animal as now these types of components are often used as a true High End Pre/DAC. If the whole enchalada makes sense, go for it. Probably the ultimate SSP combo extant. Norm

Am I kidding?

More observations (I edited my previous above post on my listener "observations" today
to include all info below):

2-5-2011

Playing CD of Emmylou Harris “Spyboy”. I alternated between playing some cuts on the PWT and the Marantz, with the later alternating between coaxial digital and analog stereo XLR. Just as in my system prior to the Theta Gen 8, when I used the Six Shooter, the Marantz is better – voices are more “microphonic” like a live performance (this is a live performance), Everything just sound more “right”. Yea, the Marantz is simply more “magical”. And the Marantz whether by analog stereo XLR or coaxial digital sounds marvelous but I defy anyone to differientiate between the two, they sound the same to me.

Now for the XRCD of Jacintha “Here’s To Ben”. My audiologic-brain response is the same as for “Spyboy” above, except perhaps even more so due to the top notch recording quality of this XRCD.

Keep in mind since for now I am “only” two channel with no subwoofer, that I am letting my brain ignore the added kick to low bass I get when my Aerial subs are in use. I know from experience that this is a real advantage to using digital v. analog stereo out of the Marantz. And of course the CB3 HD, when I get it, will allow me to have Extreme DACs for the rest of 5.3 channels (front left and right, front center, surround left and right, three subs) “synthesized” per DPL2 or DTS Neo.

Now to try a SACD – Doobie Bros “Takin’ It to the Streets”. One of my all time favorites since my second year of law school when it came out. Playing the SACD stereo track via Marantz, via stereo analog XLR, sounds very nice. If I switch to coaxial digital, I get nothing, since I am playing the SACD stereo track and as the Gen 8 doesn’t convert DSD. Switching to the CD track, still is very nice and listenable, but not as good as SACD! Whats interesting though is that playing it in redbook, the Marantz’ internal DAC conversion, analog XLR out, sounds equivalent to coaxial digital from the Marantz with the Gen 8 doing the conversion. In my “prior” setup with the Marantz to PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (PWD) via coaxial digital, then analog XLR out to Six Shooter, vs Marantz stereo analog XLR out to Six Shooter, the Marantz digital out was easily superior musically. But now with CD the sonics are virtually indistinguishable. Is this due to the superiority of the Gen 8 over the Six Shooter as an analog preamp???

Now been listenin’ to Steely Dan “Two Against Nature” DVD-A in stereo 96-24 via Marantz, switching some between coaxial digital and stereo analog XLR. Again, the two inputs are simply indistinguishable. Sounds as good or better than ever! Probably better than ever as I’m only playing the stereo track, where in my prior CB3 and Six Shooter system using Marantz multi-channel analog out I listed in multi-channel DVD-A. Just think how much even better it will be when I get the CB3 HD so with the CB3 HD & Gen 8 V2 combo I will be able to do multi-channel DVD-A including whatever hi pass/low pass bass crossover I choose!!! And being able to throw my Aerial subs in the mix. WOW!

Now listenin’ to Steely Dan “Gaucho” SACD in stereo via Marantz stereo analog XLRs. Again, simply outstanding. Can’t wait to make it even better once I get the CB3 HD so I can play in 5.3 (I have three subs) multi-channel SACD!!! AGAIN WOWEE! This is really nice!!@@@ Next I played some of the CD (Mobile Fidelity) of “Gaucho”. Most important, though sounds great, played by Marantz, sounding equivalent whether using Marantz analog stereo XLRs or coaxial digital, clearly not as good sounding as the SACD was. But if I wasn’t comparing SACD v CD the CD would still be excellent and moving!

The more I listen to stuff, the more I see that I will be selling both the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and Transport. The Marantz coaxial digital out is clearly superior on redbook used with the Gen 8 compared to the PWT. And using the Gen 8 as a preamp, the Marantz coaxial digital out vs the Marantz stereo analog XLR out sounds the same via the Gen 8. The Marantz is most impressive indeed as is everything about the Gen 8 (except that the Gen 8 currently doesn't do 176-24 or 192-24, though my understanding is that Theta simply needs to replace a receiver chip to accomplish this and hopefully at some point in the near future Theta will do this, so that the Gen 8 can play everything. Nice if Theta would add a port like USB, firewire, etc for music from a computer. My initial research indicates that per a Secrets of Home Theater Gen 8 review in 2009, the Halide Design USB to SPDIF Bridge (up to 96-24) for $450.00 works well for quaity sonics. They also noted the Wavelength 192 kHz Bridge, but thats more expensive and the Gen 8 currently can only do up to 96-24.

Absolutely!!!@@@

Be sure to have your Gen 8 V2 in your system if you don't already have the CB HDMI 1.4 upgrade - that way while the CB3 is out of your system for upgrade, you still have two channel music, etc with the Gen 8. LIKE ME!

So its all my fault. Since my Gen 8 posts yesterday, several Gen 8s have sold on Audiogon.
WOW! And I don't even have my CB3 HD back yet to 100% confirm that the hi rez blu ray tracks transmitted by bitstream from the player to the CB3 HD and decoded therein play at full resolution on the Gen 8. WOWEE!!!@@@

No,it's not as many as it seems. I screwed up and bought one before the first guy got back to me. One will be re-listed at my expense of course. So hold off on the chest beating for now.

Just curious. Has it been confirmed that outboard DACs will have access to raw PCM from HDMI sources feeding the CB-IIIHD? Is the sample rate conversion the key to this?

As I guessed Steve bought a Gen VIII V2. Congratulations & welcome to the other side!!

The Gen VIII v2 paired with CB3 brings it to another level even if your using the Extreme Dac's. But best of all the two were designed to work together. They are truly seamless.

I've owned the v2 since it was released in 2008. It has always been integrated with my CB3. As Steve has relayed the 2 channel preamp section and Dac are as amazing basically eliminating his need for his PWT/PDW(as I also predicted). I've compared the Gen VIII Dac with my Esoteric UX3PI and find that there are very close. Both are excellent but offer slight differences. Neither Bad. Really boils down to your taste. Not surprising because I think they are using the DAC.

My preamp section is connected to my Art Audio Vinyl Ref Phono stage yielding amazing results for my Vinyl Rig.

All this talk about 2 channel.....wait until you folks hear the HT processing side!

Yes it has been confirmed by Theta. I was told there was plenty of bandwidth.

Thanks, but bandwidth is not the issue. It's HDCP. Would hate to see all these expensive Gen VIII V2 DACs fall silent when playing HDMI sources.

Roger,

All I can tell you is I asked this exact question and was told that Theta was using a CB3 HD with a Gen VIII v2 (via digiout card) and everything worked. Everything meaning SACD, DVD-A ect..

I certainly do not want to spend the money to get this thing upgraded and not be able to perform those functions. Issue is we are still waiting for a report from someone that got the upgrade and is using a GEN VIII to report in.

Yes, once I get my CB3 HD back I will hopefully be able to quickly verify this!!!@@@

But I don't think that the Gen VIII displays the bit rate of the signal that it's processing. How do you know whether it's being transferred at 96khz as opposed to 48 khz?

The Gen 8 doesn't tell you the bit rate. Either does the Marantz. Neither did the Oppo 83 I no longer own. But my understanding is that when a blu ray player converts bitstream to PCM, that the PCM is output at 96-24.

Steve, what about the many BDs recorded at 48/24?

I just looked at the Marantz manual. In the menu, you can set the player to downsample PCM to 48k, or otherwise I assume the player outputs full rate PCM - whatever the rate is on the blu ray. If 96k is on the blu ray disc, then it outputs 96k. If the blu ray has only 48k, then it outputs 48k,

BD players should be outputting HDCP 96/24 sources over S/PDIF as 48/16.

The Marantz user selector for output sample rate is just to achieve compatibility with external devices that cannot handle 96/192 kHz. It will not override HDCP requirements.

ETA: Tried some 96 kHz DVD-A discs in the Oppo, and even with the PCM sample rate limit set for 96 kHz, it outputs 48 kHz from the S/PDIF while outputting 96 kHz from HDMI, at the same time. So I guess the issue is not silence from outboard DACs, but sample rate (and maybe bit depth). Even with 48 kHz source material, the CB-IIIHD upsamples to 96 kHz and runs all post-processing and the DACs at that rate. Taking that back to 48 kHz to feed the external DACs will indeed still present audio. I guess it will all become clear(er) very soon.