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The official "Theta" thread - Page 127

post #3781 of 5073
4/23/12 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post

I told my architect to include a 34x24x14 room aside for me that I can carve up any size I want with the framing. Extra detail is going in to ensure that the room is correct, with hope that only minor eq'ing will be needed for seats that matter most. So if my sound guy comes in to do the work, would I need Theta's Dirac? Or would it be best to just use Theta's without any other EQ from my sound guy in the signal path from the preamps to the amps?

I would use Dirac for everything above the crossover point for sure. My issue with outboard devices is the additional analog to digital to analog conversion. The Theta solution will be done in the digital domain. I would suggest you make your room conform to dimensions that will provide you with the best sound. I know Steve Bruzonsky designed his room that way.

You may still want to use other EQ for subs. I do not know if Dirac can yet handle multiple subs individually. You can effectively EQ all subs by treating them as one. I have done it effectively myself in the past.
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post #3782 of 5073
4/23/12 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

Dirac Question...
What is the use of Dirac if you have a top notch calibrator visits your home theater / listening space and calibrates the room using his equipment?
Thanks in advance..
Ash

Ash, the new room correction technologies are able to address stuff like reflections and speaker driver alignment that PEQ can not. I have not heard an implementation of Dirac yet. Several demos of the Mcintosh MX150 though, which uses a different tech but also a new approach, seem to offer a quality, a oneness to the sound field, that I have not heard before. The room was well treated with extensive bass traps. The bass traps do not account for what I heard however.

Another factor that will have an impact is personal preference. Few people, actually like the room to be EQ flat. Given the option to have a custom curve set to your preference, you likely will embrace it.
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post #3783 of 5073
4/23/12 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I just spent quite a bit of time with my CB3HD listening to 2CH music. Anyone have opinions of their CB3HD high frequency performance? Please PM me. I'd like to take the discussion off line to compare notes.

Thanks.

Jim, I believe the "shelf EQ," still works. Try that and see what results you get.
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post #3784 of 5073
4/23/12 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Just talked with my Theta dealer Craig Shumer/VGI!

Craig said the upcoming Dirac upgrade, which includes the new DSP which runs at 192-24 (but if you use the Dirac it will run at 96-24 if you engage Dirac)

Also, with the new Digiout card, yes, Craig confirms the CB3 HD is processing incoming 96-24d, adding subs and other channels if one likes, as 96-24 and then out the new Digiout card. Its not downrezzing 96-24.

We don't know enough about what Theta is actually doing to have reach conclusions counter to what you are observing. I could think of several technical reason why the Digi out card would not need to down-sample but we could speculate forever. The bottom line is that is you are hearing an improvement, with the new card. I have been in your room with you and know how critical a listener you are. I am also happy to see that the improvement you obtained with the Bryston BDP did not diminish when when routed through the i.
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post #3785 of 5073
4/23/12 at 10:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Jim, I believe the "shelf EQ," still works. Try that and see what results you get.

I will look for it tomorrow. I also e-mailed John with my findings. I hope to speak with him in the morning.
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post #3786 of 5073
4/24/12 at 2:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post


It would be interesting to hear what Craig has to say about downsampling/upsampling versus native 96/24 processing. I have a hunch he will plead the fifth.

He's a great supporter of Theta and appears to offer good support for his customers. I don't think he's reliable for tech info. A direct response from Theta will be the only way to clarify this.
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post #3787 of 5073
4/24/12 at 6:09am
I thought Craig said that with the new Digiout card, 96-24 from my Bryston BDP-1, even using the CB3 HD's crossovers/bass management, is not downrezzed, but is processed as 96-24! Mebbe I head what I wanted to hear?

My ears clearly told me that straight stereo, CB3 HD digiout new card to Gen VIII, front left and right, stereo only, no subs, sounds about the same, as great, as the Gen VIII S3 alone. EGADs! If indeed the "old" DSP is merely processing 48-24 (until the new DSP and Dirac come out hopefully this summer or later this year) and with the new Digiout card its upsampled to 96-24 and sounds this good - WOW! This means we are in store for even better when the new DSP comes around!
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post #3788 of 5073
4/24/12 at 6:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Craig says that with the new Digiout card, 96-24 from my Bryston BDP-1, even using the CB3 HD's crossovers/bass management, is not downrezzed, but is processed as 96-24!
As my ears told me, too. I mentioned this in the thread yesterday. Craig's been too busy to come back on the forum the past few days, particularly with folks calling wanting - you guessed it- Theta gear and those with Gen VIIIs the new Digiout card.

Steve,

Just to clarify, so anything that comes up to this new digi out card regardless if it's HDMI, Spdif, BNC, TOS ect...will be outputted at 96/24 (Left and right channels) to the Gen VIII s3? Correct?

Got a few Bluray audio and concert discs that have a 2 channel 96-24 option that I will be trying.

Just ordered the new digi card and upgrade from S2 to S3 for my Gen VIII should have it very soon.

stick
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post #3789 of 5073
4/24/12 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stick70 View Post


Just ordered the new digi card and upgrade from S2 to S3 for my Gen VIII should have it very soon.

stick

Cool. Both are great upgrades. You will certainly need the new Digi out card going forward. It would not surprise me if the old Digi out card does not work after the move to 24/192.
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post #3790 of 5073
4/24/12 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Cool. Both are great upgrades. You will certainly need the new Dugi out card going forward. It would not surprise me if the old Digi out card does not work after the move to 24/192.

Hey BD,

Yeah my thoughts exactly. I figure I'd better keep up with some of these upgrades as they come along especially if they are going to effect the Gen VIII. I'd rather spread the cash over a few upgrades rather than one fair large lump to get up to the latest. Anxious to hear what this upgrade will do for Bluray 2ch 96/24 channel now with bass management. Another project I've started is digitizing some of my rare vinyl using a Focusrite Scarlett 96/24 interface. Should be interesting to hear once my upgrades are completed.

stick
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post #3791 of 5073
4/24/12 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Most audiophile's worst nightmare is having reached the "end of the upgrade road".

God - how many times have I been there? It's so depressing
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post #3792 of 5073
4/24/12 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

God - how many times have I been there? It's so depressing

It is the same feeling as the crackhead finishing has last rock.
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post #3793 of 5073
4/24/12 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I would use Dirac for everything above the crossover point for sure. My issue with outboard devices is the additional analog to digital to analog conversion. The Theta solution will be done in the digital domain. I would suggest you make your room conform to dimensions that will provide you with the best sound. I know Steve Bruzonsky designed his room that way.

You may still want to use other EQ for subs. I do not know if Dirac can yet handle multiple subs individually. You can effectively EQ all subs by treating them as one. I have done it effectively myself in the past.

Hi Bulldogger

Yes, room size is a concern and I do want to make sure I get it right. This room is going deep underground. I've got a stairway going down another 6-7 feet...while already in the basement so as not to raise the house up too high. I spec'd a 14ft height so I can get the greater depth and width, with poured concrete around all four sides (two are inner walls.) I can then frame specific sizes from there based on the room design...and I was advised on this LxWxH and I've put a large projection/rack/electric/HVAC room at the back of the room because I just don't want the projector and noise in the room with me...I've been eyeballing these DCI Barcos and will "plan" for that capability, but we'll see based on my wants and needs when the time comes closer. I'm still a year off to breaking ground for the new house, and that's fine by me...probably better that way...so theater construction will be closer to fall of 2013 once the house is up and I can't imagine equipment going in until around Jan. 2014...and Theta upgrades and intentions for 4K source/projection should be much clearer by then.

I've seen Steve's impressive thread. I've gone over it a few times for ideas. It served as a model for where I wanted to go with the room...now considering going the 11.2 route...would probably sound great in such a large room. Now I feel more confident taking it in the direction I want. Hopefully I'll get a chance to hear some Theta HD with Dirac before then. I don't think there's anywhere within 7 hours of me that actually carries Theta. Craig's the closest!

Oh yes, forgot to mention...I am also scared of putting other "EQ" equipment between the CIII-HD and my Enterprises. That makes me a bit uncomfortable. With a well designed, well treated room, I'm wondering if I'd actually lose more by throwing something else in the fully-balanced signal path (which would probably kill that benefit right off the bat) and be best on using Dirac in Theta's digital domain.
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post #3794 of 5073
4/24/12 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

God - how many times have I been there? It's so depressing


I thought I was at the end of upgrades back with the CB3, Six Shooter, and Marantz UD9004. Man was I WRONG! Thank you Morris Kessler and ATI Theta Digital - also Bryston for the BDP-1 Media Player and its Apple iPad3 controller!!!
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post #3795 of 5073
4/24/12 at 10:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stick70 View Post

Steve,

Just to clarify, so anything that comes up to this new digi out card regardless if it's HDMI, Spdif, BNC, TOS ect...will be outputted at 96/24 (Left and right channels) to the Gen VIII s3? Correct?

Got a few Bluray audio and concert discs that have a 2 channel 96-24 option that I will be trying.

Just ordered the new digi card and upgrade from S2 to S3 for my Gen VIII should have it very soon.

stick

Yes Sir Mr Stick !! 24/96 baby !!

Enjoy and keep us posted !
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post #3796 of 5073
4/25/12 at 12:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

.... will the Dirac software allow me (or someone who knows what they are doing ) to configure each individual sub to get the best results?

Does anyone have an thoughts?

Sean

I decided to ask the question directly to Dirac Research. The answer was,"
Dirac Live RCS already supports individual sub calibration but there has to be a bass management/mixing scheme in place before the Dirac Audio." The Casablanca has extensive crossover and multiple sub support. I would consider this a ,"yes," answer. Nice!
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post #3797 of 5073
4/25/12 at 12:07am
I had to resort to using the Shelf EQ for the 1st time ever. I never had to use it with my CB3. Has anyone else used it, and what setting did you settle on?

I was teetering between 2 & 3. 2 - Cymbals were crisper, but 3 seemed more enjoyable for the larger variety of music.

If you haven't adjusted it before, the attenuation increases at 2K fq by display number. 1 offers less attenuation than 4 (Max). To get to the settings, press Balance on Remote, then A-D. Then it's menu 3 "EQ".

I found it easiest to adjust it by listening to cymbals in 2CH Music.
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post #3798 of 5073
4/25/12 at 1:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I just spent quite a bit of time with my CB3HD listening to 2CH music. Anyone have opinions of their CB3HD high frequency performance? Please PM me. I'd like to take the discussion off line to compare notes.

Thanks.

kinda wish you could discuss it right here
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post #3799 of 5073
4/25/12 at 1:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

kinda wish you could discuss it right here

I would love too, however I don't want to state something- and be wrong, and then others take it as fact. That is not my intent.

Honestly, no one responded. So every CB3HD owner on the forum must be happy and doesn't have a problem. I am trying to discern if what I am hearing is a legitimate problem or not. Perhaps a setting? I just want to make certain my unit is performing up to Standard.
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post #3800 of 5073
4/25/12 at 1:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post

Hi Bulldogger

Yes, room size is a concern and I do want to make sure I get it right. This room is going deep underground. I've got a stairway going down another 6-7 feet...while already in the basement so as not to raise the house up too high. I spec'd a 14ft height so I can get the greater depth and width, with poured concrete around all four sides (two are inner walls.) I can then frame specific sizes from there based on the room design...and I was advised on this LxWxH and I've put a large projection/rack/electric/HVAC room at the back of the room because I just don't want the projector and noise in the room with me...I've been eyeballing these DCI Barcos and will "plan" for that capability, but we'll see based on my wants and needs when the time comes closer. I'm still a year off to breaking ground for the new house, and that's fine by me...probably better that way...so theater construction will be closer to fall of 2013 once the house is up and I can't imagine equipment going in until around Jan. 2014...and Theta upgrades and intentions for 4K source/projection should be much clearer by then.

I've seen Steve's impressive thread. I've gone over it a few times for ideas. It served as a model for where I wanted to go with the room...now considering going the 11.2 route...would probably sound great in such a large room. Now I feel more confident taking it in the direction I want. Hopefully I'll get a chance to hear some Theta HD with Dirac before then. I don't think there's anywhere within 7 hours of me that actually carries Theta. Craig's the closest!

Oh yes, forgot to mention...I am also scared of putting other "EQ" equipment between the CIII-HD and my Enterprises. That makes me a bit uncomfortable. With a well designed, well treated room, I'm wondering if I'd actually lose more by throwing something else in the fully-balanced signal path (which would probably kill that benefit right off the bat) and be best on using Dirac in Theta's digital domain.

You're a good 1.5 years out from installation. I think you're doing the right thing so far by going through the thread and selecting the theaters you like the best. I would also add that since time is on your side, don't make any decisions until you absolutely have to. The technology changes so fast anymore that it seems to work better that way these days.

As far as EQ between your CBIII HD and the Enterprise is concerned, I would get the Dirac system in, get it setup right, and use it as a baseline to compare against any other changes you may want to do in the future. There will be plenty of time to think about adding in new stuff down the road.
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post #3801 of 5073
4/25/12 at 1:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I would love too, however I don't want to state something- and be wrong, and then others take it as fact. That is not my intent.

Honestly, no one responded. So every CB3HD owner on the forum must be happy and doesn't have a problem. I am trying to discern if what I am hearing is a legitimate problem or not. Perhaps a setting? I just want to make certain my unit is performing up to Standard.

Well Jim - This being the Official Theta Thread - As long as it's about Theta and you're not threatening a terrorist attack or anything like that, you can bring your ideas up and discuss them. So what's up?
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post #3802 of 5073
4/25/12 at 1:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

well jim - this being the official theta thread - as long as it's about theta and you're not threatening a terrorist attack or anything like that, you can bring your ideas up and discuss them. So what's up?

+1
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post #3803 of 5073
4/25/12 at 2:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

You're a good 1.5 years out from installation. I think you're doing the right thing so far by going through the thread and selecting the theaters you like the best. I would also add that since time is on your side, don't make any decisions until you absolutely have to. The technology changes so fast anymore that it seems to work better that way these days.

Aside from working back and forth with the architect, we've been consulting with other "experts" to look at the practicality of the design of the plans (e.g. kitchen) for those who will be doing custom work. Sometimes architects don't always think practicality...you never know! Time is being spent on all aspects of the house right now in terms of selecting what we plan to put in it once it's being built. The last thing I want to do is start researching when I actually need it. Anyways, ditto for the theater. I'm following so I'm not walking in blindly. I almost jumped on a CIII last year, but decided since "digital" products change so rapidly, it makes no sense so I bought all of my amps instead. That was the safer buy!!
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post #3804 of 5073
4/25/12 at 6:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post


Well Jim - This being the Official Theta Thread - As long as it's about Theta and you're not threatening a terrorist attack or anything like that, you can bring your ideas up and discuss them. So what's up?

I just don't feel the sound is as comfortable as my original CB3. Now I did adjust the EQ shelf and it helped, but I never had to do that with my original CB3.

What I hear is for lack of a better word a subtle artifact only present at what I call a certain frequency (by ear). Some voices are distorted. At first it sounded similar to guitar amp distortion, but very subtle. It is not in your face obvious. It was enough that I would be focused on a task, or talking to to someone, and the sound would be enough to distract me from what I was doing, look at speaker array and say, "what was that"? I sent my unit back to Theta, they made some changes, sent it back. It seems better, but I believe it to still be off especially with cable TV HD programming. I understand not all broadcasts are good.

Then I tested movies. I found Super-8 had a moment that sounded odd. Additionally sounds may not be naturally recorded and could be low sampled sounds mixed in. I have not had a chance to re-watch super-8 yet.

Then I turned to 2 channel music from CDs as they are not high resolution; to get closer to apples to apples comparison. After listening to 2.5 hours it was clear I could hear the sound was hot/harsh. I found myself questioning myself until I really listened to a rock band with real cymbals vs synthesized. Queen Platinum Collection was one. Genesis was another.

I then put Cable HDTV back on immediately after, and I experienced a "Hot veil" that you could feel more than you could hear specifics. Overall it sounded hot.

Bulldogger reminded me about the Shelf EQ, and I also went power cable direct to wall upon suggestion. Power cable to wall didn't make a discernible difference. The EQ did change the sound; which led to my previous post teetering on setting 2/3.

Source components:
Oppo 95 via HDMI - bitstream audio
HTPC with Lynx16 ASIO BITPERFECT via AES
Dune player via HDMI - bitstream audio.
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post #3805 of 5073
4/25/12 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post


I just don't feel the sound is as comfortable as my original CB3. Now I did adjust the EQ shelf and it helped, but I never had to do that with my original CB3.

What I hear is for lack of a better word a subtle artifact only present at what I call a certain frequency (by ear). Some voices are distorted. At first it sounded similar to guitar amp distortion, but very subtle.

I have heard that sound with a Six Shooter. I removed my gear to paint the room. When I set everything back up it sounded as you describe. One of the volume control card in the SS had popped up, just a little. Pushing it down solved the problem. It seemed barely up and I did not think that could possibly be it. It was. Try pushing down on those cards on your dacs. Two users that I count, both sent overseas however, have had to reseat parts.

I believe the new board handles material input via HDMI and the new high Rez codecs. Try regular DD input by coax and see if the problem remains.


You might also want to try reassigning the channels on one dac card to another to eliminate the possibility of a defective dac.

Do you have another preamp that you can place in the system? It is possible that the problem exist down stream of the Casablanca.

What kind of cables are you using? I had a cable,XLR that I terminated cause a distorted sound. A stray strand from the shield was making contact with one of the signal wires. Again that seemed like a small issue but it was causing the problem.

Lastly, is the sound in all channels? Have you tried playing noise in each channel? I have had damaged drivers, center channel midrange,cause distortion. A malfunctioning amplifier has to also be eliminated.
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post #3806 of 5073
4/25/12 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I have heard that sound with a Six Shooter. I removed my gear to paint the room. When I set everything back up it sounded as you describe. One of the volume control card in the SS had popped up, just a little. Pushing it down solved the problem. It seemed barely up and I did not think that could possibly be it. It was. Try pushing down on those cards on your dacs. Two users that I count, both sent overseas however, have had to reseat parts.

I believe the new board handles material input via HDMI and the new high Rez codecs. Try regular DD input by coax and see if the problem remains.

You might also want to try reassigning the channels on one dac card to another to eliminate the possibility of a defective dac.

Do you have another preamp that you can place in the system? It is possible that the problem exist down stream of the Casablanca.

What kind of cables are you using? I had a cable,XLR that I terminated cause a distorted sound. A stray strand from the shield was making contact with one of the signal wires. Again that seemed like a small issue but it was causing the problem.

Lastly, is the sound in all channels? Have you tried playing noise in each channel? I have had damaged drivers, center channel midrange,cause distortion. A malfunctioning amplifier has to also be eliminated.

I was told Theta made brackets for volume cards to hold in place especially during shipping. They are locked down.

What is holding me up is nothing changed except upgrade.

I took my material to another client that has same speakers but Lexicon processor. It doesnt sound as good in 2CH, but it wasn't as hot either. I had adjusted the tilt in the processor (lex) during the calibration. Didn't offer Theta at the time as there wasn't an HDMI solution.

Yes sound is in all channels. I only have front 4 on while in my temp space. All speakers are good. Nothing is blown. Some music sounds FANTASTIC. But I know they are A+ masterings.

I will break out Sencore 395 and Audio generator to inject pink noise around 2k and perform a RTA test. Will also do frequency sweep to see how flat the frequency response is. BUT, I don't have before graphs to compare.
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post #3807 of 5073
4/25/12 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I was told Theta made brackets for volume cards to hold in place especially during shipping. They are locked down.

What is holding me up is nothing changed except upgrade.

I took my material to another client that has same speakers but Lexicon processor. It doesnt sound as good in 2CH, but it wasn't as hot either. I had adjusted the tilt in the processor (lex) during the calibration. Didn't offer Theta at the time as there wasn't an HDMI solution.

Yes sound is in all channels. I only have front 4 on while in my temp space. All speakers are good. Nothing is blown. Some music sounds FANTASTIC. But I know they are A+ masterings.

I will break out Sencore 395 and Audio generator to inject pink noise around 2k and perform a RTA test. Will also do frequency sweep to see how flat the frequency response is. BUT, I don't have before graphs to compare.

To isolate the problem you may also want to run the Oppo analog into the CBIII with a harsh sounding CD. I believe this will use the analog volume control on your mains DAC card, but obviously bypass the digital circuitry. If the harshness remains, your analog volume control is likely to be the problem. If it goes away, it is in the digital circuitry.

I would also run coax into the CBIII and compare with HDMI using the same source. If only the HDMI source has the problem, you narrowed down the problem area to new HDMI board. If both have the problem, it is more likely to be the DAC.
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post #3808 of 5073
4/25/12 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post


To isolate the problem you may also want to run the Oppo analog into the CBIII with a harsh sounding CD. I believe this will use the analog volume control on your mains DAC card, but obviously bypass the digital circuitry. If the harshness remains, your analog volume control is likely to be the problem. If it goes away, it is in the digital circuitry.

I would also run coax into the CBIII and compare with HDMI using the same source. If only the HDMI source has the problem, you narrowed down the problem area to new HDMI board. If both have the problem, it is more likely to be the DAC.

As far as initial distortion problem, I had tested analog direct via patch cables, coax spdif, and HDMI from Oppo. Hard to test due to volume differences as spdif was loudest, HDMI was next, followed by analog. Nothing changed between the 3.

Theta made a change and sent it back. Honestly the distortion type sound seems to not be as present as a modulated noise I first reported. I have to listen again with EQ on 3 and see if I hear anything out of ordinary.

Testing for "hot" sound is via AES "Spdif". Sound from my HTPC is better than Oppo 95 for 2 channel recordings. Oppo can't play HRX to my knowledge. Perhaps I'll go buy a SACD and try that. Any suggestions?

Ultimately I want to know my processor is in perfect working order, is it more detail that I'm hearing which I don't like? I don't know for certain. I knew I had issues with loss of sound that so far is fixed. I had legitimate reasons for sending it back which I also reported on audio. They made changes and are like me trying to get to bottom of it. I just don't want to drive someone crazy if I am mistaken; hence my reaching out to the group to get their honest feedback and not intended to bash Theta at all. They have been very helpful, understanding, and accommodating. This is my daily frustration in my head.
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post #3809 of 5073
4/25/12 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

As far as initial distortion problem, I had tested analog direct via patch cables, coax spdif, and HDMI from Oppo. Hard to test due to volume differences as spdif was loudest, HDMI was next, followed by analog. Nothing changed between the 3.

You can easily match levels for each input with the CBIII - make sure to map each source to a different input, get out the SPL meter and presto.

Irrespectively, if all three sources (including analog) have the same problem this rules out all things digital in the CBIII. The analog volume control card as BD suggested could be the issue.
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post #3810 of 5073
4/25/12 at 10:45am
John also pointed out they are using KEF speakers that are more forgiving than Genelecs. Genelecs don't hide anything which may be why I am hearing more than others. More of a bad recording/mix is even worse. I have to consider that as well, and does make sense as there are recordings that sounded like garbage due to the mastering; played on original CB3.

I wished I would have done testing with graphs prior to the upgrade but honestly never thought I would have needed to.

John and I have formulated steps for obtaining additional data. To confirm my unit is performing correctly.
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