AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › The official "Theta" thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The official "Theta" thread - Page 128

post #3811 of 5067
Jim, over the years, I have had crazier stuff occur than you describe here. All too often I went through all sorts of tests to try to figure out the problem, and most of the time if I had just followed the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) philosophy I would have found the problem a lot quicker. Most of the time.

I feel for you. I've been there. Its no fun.
post #3812 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I will break out Sencore 395 and Audio generator to inject pink noise around 2k and perform a RTA test. Will also do frequency sweep to see how flat the frequency response is. BUT, I don't have before graphs to compare.

No need for "before" graphs. Run the sine sweeps and look not only for flatness but distortion or other spuriae.
post #3813 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post


Oh yes, forgot to mention...I am also scared of putting other "EQ" equipment between the CIII-HD and my Enterprises. That makes me a bit uncomfortable. With a well designed, well treated room, I'm wondering if I'd actually lose more by throwing something else in the fully-balanced signal path (which would probably kill that benefit right off the bat) and be best on using Dirac in Theta's digital domain.

When I asked about using diffusion in my room, the response I got back matched what I have gotten when I have asked of other companies that sell RC technology. The advice was to first treat the room as much as possible, position speakers and subs in the best locations, and use room correction LAST. Also, you don't have to use correction over the entire frequency response. For example, I was advised that you can only correct the bass response if you do not want to alter the rest of your speaker's response. One of the benefits of the Casablanca is that you can sell parts that you no longer want or need. If you decide to purchase Dirac, and do not like it, sell it.

With it being done in the digital domain, I plan to use it. I am pretty much a purist. Steve recently mentioned Stevie Wonder. For years, Stevie would call my wife's family at Christmas to wish the family merry Christmas. My wife's uncle recorded one of his albums that won a grammy. I think I heard a million times about how good he was at that and how Stevie had won that grammy. When I first married my wife, the family informed him that I was, "into stereo." He came over and was immediately impressed with the sound. However, seconds later into our listening session, he kind of started to shake his head back and forth and gave me a "look." The recording I had used was a Mobile Fidelity recording which I loved. His comment was that the recording was great for ,"Cats like you, into stereo." However, he said a great recording needed to sound great even on a portable radio. At first, I did not realize what he was saying. What he meant was that the recording had too much dynamic range. He liked compression because that's the way he recorded for the masses. He loved the music and was surprised at how good a home system could sound. We never agreed on the compression but I understood his position. We audiophiles are different,"beast," from the rest of the world. My wife's sentiment was basically how could I have higher standards than her uncle??

The situation before was that you felt that you had to compromise on the sound quality of the electronics in many cases, just to have room correction. I have been listening to gear with and without room correction for the last decade or so. The tech is finally getting there were I don't see ANY downsides to using it. It's still not the ,"magic bullet," that everyone wants it to be. It also is still no sub. for the stuff that comes before, purpose built room if possible, room treatments, seating locations and speaker positioning. That is basically the advise I got from Dirac but not so strongly worded.

Over the years, I have had friend curious about Mcintosh preamps. Some of the more purist audiophiles have an issue with tone controls. One of my buddies toyed with the idea of getting a Mac preamp for years. It always came back to the same thing, the tone controls. For years I explained that the tone controls could be defeated and taken out of the signal. Finally he relented and loved the preamp that he purchased. A couple of weeks later, I came back over. Guess what? He was using those tone control. My experience that given the opportunity to have control over the audio and suit it to personal taste, even the diehards buckle.
post #3814 of 5067
Trying to be positive about the processor but when I watch two music shows and both have major audio problems I go crazy.

I watched the result show of "The Voice" from Tuesday night, on NBC HD. At the 13 minute mark when Tony was announced he was saved, the amount of overdriven distortion was enough for me to just turn everything off. I might as well had used my old old Pioneer receiver back from Highschool. It would not have made the horrendous distortion any worse.

Then American Idol came on tonight on Fox HD. Queen is a special guest, I was off to the right in the dining area and was kinda listening. There was someone talking near the beginning about Queen I believe, and all of a sudden it had a heavy metallic compression sound to the dialogue. I was like WTF!

Both program's audio distortion/artifact was NOT SUBTLE.

So two different shows on two different HDTV stations sounded terrible, not sure who produced them. Will have to look at the credits. Am I doomed to never enjoy TV again? First Comcast compresses the HD video so that anything with fast pans looks like a psychedelic checkerboard due to too much video compression. Now it seems TV show Audio is equally poisoned.

I swear the picture on a B&W Zenith Console CRT back in the 70's looked clearer and sounded better than this garbage.

Any chance anyone else suffered through the same experience I did tonight or recording of The Voice from last night?
post #3815 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

When I asked about using diffusion in my room, the response I got back matched what I have gotten when I have asked of other companies that sell RC technology. The advice was to first treat the room as much as possible, position speakers and subs in the best locations, and use room correction LAST. Also, you don't have to use correction over the entire frequency response. For example, I was advised that you can only correct the bass response if you do not want to alter the rest of your speaker's response. One of the benefits of the Casablanca is that you can sell parts that you no longer want or need. If you decide to purchase Dirac, and do not like it, sell it.

With it being done in the digital domain, I plan to use it. I am pretty much a purist. Steve recently mentioned Stevie Wonder. For years, Stevie would call my wife's family at Christmas to wish the family merry Christmas. My wife's uncle recorded one of his albums that won a grammy. I think I heard a million times about how good he was at that and how Stevie had won that grammy. When I first married my wife, the family informed him that I was, "into stereo." He came over and was immediately impressed with the sound. However, seconds later into our listening session, he kind of started to shake his head back and forth and gave me a "look." The recording I had used was a Mobile Fidelity recording which I loved. His comment was that the recording was great for ,"Cats like you, into stereo." However, he said a great recording needed to sound great even on a portable radio. At first, I did not realize what he was saying. What he meant was that the recording had too much dynamic range. He liked compression because that's the way he recorded for the masses. He loved the music and was surprised at how good a home system could sound. We never agreed on the compression but I understood his position. We audiophiles are different,"beast," from the rest of the world. My wife's sentiment was basically how could I have higher standards than her uncle??

The situation before was that you felt that you had to compromise on the sound quality of the electronics in many cases, just to have room correction. I have been listening to gear with and without room correction for the last decade or so. The tech is finally getting there were I don't see ANY downsides to using it. It's still not the ,"magic bullet," that everyone wants it to be. It also is still no sub. for the stuff that comes before, purpose built room if possible, room treatments, seating locations and speaker positioning. That is basically the advise I got from Dirac but not so strongly worded.

Over the years, I have had friend curious about Mcintosh preamps. Some of the more purist audiophiles have an issue with tone controls. One of my buddies toyed with the idea of getting a Mac preamp for years. It always came back to the same thing, the tone controls. For years I explained that the tone controls could be defeated and taken out of the signal. Finally he relented and loved the preamp that he purchased. A couple of weeks later, I came back over. Guess what? He was using those tone control. My experience that given the opportunity to have control over the audio and suit it to personal taste, even the diehards buckle.

That is pretty nifty about Stevie Wonder, who was no doubt born a musical genius. But although Stevie wrote and sang the song "Higher Ground", it appears you standards are a "Higher Ground" when it comes to fidelity.

But I gotta tell you. The Stevie Wonder gold CDs that I have, and the 96-24 Innervisions, sound marvelous. I also have the "plain" CD set "At the Turn of the Century" or something like that and the sound is compressed and poor in comparison.

I 100% agree, get everything else first, the room, acoustic treatments, etc - EQ comes last. Dirac means digital EQ, which we will be able to tinker with to our tastes or use or not use as we see fit - it will be another wonderful tool which may help get us that much closer to sonic perfection!!
post #3816 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Trying to be positive about the processor but when I watch two music shows and both have major audio problems I go crazy.

I was like WTF!

Both program's audio distortion/artifact was NOT SUBTLE.

Am I doomed to never enjoy TV again? Now it seems TV show Audio is equally poisoned.


I hesitate to say that there is nothing wrong with your processor because of what you say you've heard with DVD but as far as DirecTV and cable audio goes, I've heard very distinct audio distortion for years.
It is much worse with some speakers then others.
Most people do not notice it even when I point it out.

I heard it with my Levinson preamp as well as with the original Casablanca using Magnaplaner speakers with ribbon tweeters.
I heard it with the CB-III before the HD upgrade, using different DirecTV boxes with optical cable and now with the CB-IIIHD using HDMI.
I hear it more with the Magnaplaner speakers then I do with the Aerial Mdl. 9's, the ribbon tweeters make it stand out much, much more. And with the Magnaplaners, I can isolate the sound to the tweeters by removing the midrange fuses, it is unmistakable.
I own three pairs of Magnaplaner speakers so it is not a bad ribbon or a bad speaker.
I've tried to reduce the amount of audible distortion with very limited success with the CB-III's shelf eq and with resistors of different values across the tweeters.

I don't know how to describe it exactly but with the ribbons, it's like crosstalk from an old tape recorder where the sound of one track is bleeding through to the other track....backwards!
With conventional tweeters it is not nearly as dramatic, it is probably what you hear as well.
I am surprised that more people here have not chimed in with regards to hearing TV with audio distortion in the hi-freq's.

I think that now that you've heard this sound you may never be able to unhear it.
You may very well be doomed.
post #3817 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Well I went to my Client's Cinema. My speakers are not bad, as the "sound" was "about" the same. Maybe more subdued with proper treatments, than my temp condo with no treatments.

I may be over critical too? There is a human factor to consider (psychological)..

What did your client say?
post #3818 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post


What did your client say?

I took one movie, "Resident Evil - Afterlife 3D BD" over to listen to the opening score to verify if there was a speaker problem. His speakers played the score very similar to mine. He actually said that he may have thought the same thing if he played this for the first time by himself. If you hook up a bd player to a TV speaker or computer monitor you can hear the the same thing as its in the recording. The Genelecs are dynamic, when you turn it up, it can give the impression that your center channel driver has gone bad/blown. You get confirmation that it isn't with crystal clear dialogue narration right after. See if you can rent it, just don't start Chapter 1 with the volume cranked up.
post #3819 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post


I took one movie, "Resident Evil - Afterlife 3D BD" over to listen to the opening score to verify if there was a speaker problem. His speakers played the score very similar to mine. He actually said that he may have thought the same thing if he played this for the first time by himself.

Does that mean he has played it before with his processor and got the same result?
post #3820 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I took one movie, "Resident Evil - Afterlife 3D BD" over to listen to the opening score to verify if there was a speaker problem. His speakers played the score very similar to mine. He actually said that he may have thought the same thing if he played this for the first time by himself. If you hook up a bd player to a TV speaker or computer monitor you can hear the the same thing as its in the recording. The Genelecs are dynamic, when you turn it up, it can give the impression that your center channel driver has gone bad/blown. You get confirmation that it isn't with crystal clear dialogue narration right after. See if you can rent it, just don't start Chapter 1 with the volume cranked up.

I had a similar experience when I watched Alien on blu-ray for the first time on my CBIII HD.

At times the dialogue sounded harsh and distorted, something I have never noticed in my many previous viewings on my CBIII w/out HDMI. I immediately thought something was up! I've since just concluded that maybe it's in the soundtrack and I just never heard it before. I'm finding the dramatic change in SQ from the CBIII to the HD is making previously familiar content quite different, sometimes not in a good way . There are sound effects that I have never heard in all the years I've watched Alien on DVD that are suddenly there. The CBIII without HD audio just didn't reveal these details IMO.

99% of the time it is a positive improvement.

Sean
post #3821 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Does that mean he has played it before with his processor and got the same result?

No he had not watched this movie before. I knew there was the distinct distortion sound but not like I heard it with the CB3HD. I watched it with CB3 before.

I was going crazy and sometimes in the heat of the moment, you stop thinking rationally. I wanted to verify that I wasn't crazy and to rule out speakers being defective. His sound was similar but not as "hot" as mine. Granted he has full room treatments, while I have none. To test I took the Genelec Tweeter level down another 1dB (from -2 to -3) and it made no discernible difference in the sound that I stated about the 2 music shows' audio.
post #3822 of 5067
Great Stevie Wonder story. It seems to be a mixture of opinion regarding dynamic range compression between artists, recording engineers, and producers. Who's ears are hurting? While I love such a wide variety of music, I do get fatigued sitting through a whole album beginning to end. I find this especially with much of the newer stuff...not only are my senses tired, but I feel emotionally drained too - almost to the point that I'm just *not interested* in listening to the album anymore that's full of good music. I'm just tired of listening and can only handle a track or two at a time.

I calibrated a TV for a guy who did some sort of music mixing or mastering...and he talked about how after a mix is done, the song sample or songs are played back on a wide variety of devices, notes are taken in terms of strengths and weakness on each device, and then adjustments were made back in the studio to make the final product "better" for playback systems of all kinds. A very compromised approach, so "Cats like us, into stereo" really get left in the dust...

So I'm happy to take the approach of treating the room as best as possible. I assumed that most of the work with EQing would be in the bass region. Yay!
post #3823 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Does the digi out card just feed Theta DACs or other DACs as well. I assume if other DACs are included, the non-Theta DAC output would need to go into the volume control box since Theta only does analog volume control? Is this correct?

I can not see the vol.data on the new digi-out card like on the old dig-out card. Is this not more nessecary?
post #3824 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raypete View Post

I can not see the vol.data on the new digi-out card like on the old dig-out card. Is this not more nessecary?

You use the vol data output on the bottom of the digital input card. I asked Craig the same question and that was the only 'issue' I had installing the new digital output card, which, in my non technical description, sounds fabulous.
post #3825 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgsdds View Post

You use the vol data output on the bottom of the digital input card. I asked Craig the same question and that was the only 'issue' I had installing the new digital output card, which, in my non technical description, sounds fabulous.

Okee, thanks. Not that I'm having a Gen8, but I just bougt a CBIIIHD and I'm considering buying a Gen8S3, now that the new digi-out card is out.
post #3826 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgsdds View Post

You use the vol data output on the bottom of the digital input card. I asked Craig the same question and that was the only 'issue' I had installing the new digital output card, which, in my non technical description, sounds fabulous.

I noticed the lack of any vol data output on the new Digiout card right away but forgot to post. I simply connected the Gen VIII's vol data connection to the one on the CB3 HD's digital input card, all worked fine,and didn't think about it again until I read the above post. HA!
post #3827 of 5067
I am going to try to eliminate Lumagen Radiance as potential problem with audio. Anyone else troubleshoot possible Lumagen issue? Not saying there is; I just want to rule out.
post #3828 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I am going to try to eliminate Lumagen Radiance as potential problem with audio. Anyone else troubleshoot possible Lumagen issue? Not saying there is; I just want to rule out.

I run all HDMI sources to my Lumagen Radiance, with HDMI out from Radiance to CB3 HD (which has new Digiout card to Gen VIII S3 DAC).
I setup the Radiance menu for audio via HDMI out. I have no issues at all. Sounds same as when I ran from source first into DB3 HD and then out to Radiance.
post #3829 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I am going to try to eliminate Lumagen Radiance as potential problem with audio. Anyone else troubleshoot possible Lumagen issue? Not saying there is; I just want to rule out.

My Radiance is "after"the SSP (via HDMI) before PJ so audio never enters the picture (so to speak )
post #3830 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raypete View Post

I can not see the vol.data on the new digi-out card like on the old dig-out card. Is this not more nessecary?

You can use the Vol Data OUt on the Digi Input Card. At some point we had 3 Volume outs and we really dont need that any longer. One is all you need with a Gen 8. I guess 2 if you had a Six Shooter as well but with HD everything i dont know too many people using Six Shooter Any longer

Thanks
Craig
post #3831 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post


I guess 2 if you had a Six Shooter as well but with HD everything i dont know too many people using Six Shooter Any longer

Thanks
Craig

Just one then as well. All Theta products have a loop so you just input into one volume data and then loop out to the next. You could also connect 6 Gen 8s in this manner.
post #3832 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

You can use the Vol Data OUt on the Digi Input Card. At some point we had 3 Volume outs and we really dont need that any longer. One is all you need with a Gen 8. I guess 2 if you had a Six Shooter as well but with HD everything i dont know too many people using Six Shooter Any longer

Thanks
Craig

My Six Shooter is sitting unused simply as a relic of the great 2005's - 2010's.
Though it could be useful if I ever wanted to demo a few analog preamps against each other!
post #3833 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgsdds View Post


You use the vol data output on the bottom of the digital input card. I asked Craig the same question and that was the only 'issue' I had installing the new digital output card, which, in my non technical description, sounds fabulous.

What is important is that it sounds fabulous. I am not sure what the resolution is native on all channels. I though had to hold my nose on the claim of the subs being anything but UPSAMPLED 24/96. Regardless, any hope of getting native high-Rez digital out rest on the new card. Anyone with those intentions will need the new card. Greater than 48/16 native HDCP protected material, Blu/ray, is never going to happen
post #3834 of 5067
Downloaded Bob Marley, Legend @ 24/192 from HDtracks. If I had not quit 20 years, I ago, I would need a good joint. Can still tell it's an old tape but it's really enjoyable with the Gen III series3. Reminds me of the many live reggae concerts I have attended, even after I quit.
post #3835 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Downloaded Bob Marley, Legend @ 24/192 from HDtracks. If I had not quit 20 years, I ago, I would need a good joint. Can still tell it's an old tape but it's really enjoyable with the Gen III series3. Reminds me of the many live reggae concerts I have attended, even after I quit.

Yea, I just got that, too. Its FANTASTIC!!!

When I first got the new Digiout card, and demos the 96-24 Audio Alchemy "Roseland", yea, I "heard" it sound equivalent full range via CB3 HD-GenVIII S3 combo vs Gen VIII S3 only, and then with CB3 HD-Gen VIII S3 combo using 80 Hz 12 dB Butterworth hi and low pass crossover, clearly sounded even better as I could both hear and feel the bass better.

But I have found lotsa stuff isn't as bass heavy and I frankly can't hear that bass improvement whether I go full range or use the crossovers.

And whether the CB3 HD - Gen VIII S3 combo actually sounds as good
as the Gen VIII S3 alone on hi rez audio is something I actually need time just to relax, listen and determine, and may very some depending upon the recording not just the resolution.

Funny - as I've watched more "TV" shows,it may be that the Dolby Digital seems perhaps somewhat quieter, more relaxed and a bit more dynamic.
Its not night and day! This is with the new Digiout card vs my memory of the old card.

I'll be interested to hear impressions of other new Digiout card and Gen VIII S3 owners.
post #3836 of 5067
here's what I have to ask: is it better than the remastered cd ( meaning the high res file vs the disk in a transport ). That's something that I've been wondering about lately as I've frequented hd tracks.

Dan
post #3837 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

here's what I have to ask: is it better than the remastered cd ( meaning the high res file vs the disk in a transport ). That's something that I've been wondering about lately as I've frequented hd tracks.

Dan

I do find that even a redbook track off a USB Drive into and out my Bryston BDP-1 sounds better than the CD in several top notch CD transports I've used.

Now whether the HD tracks higher rez file is better than the redbook file,
jiggers, that takes time and effort to compare and frankly I don't have the time or effort to do that very often! U DO make a point.

Then again, in mediocre audio systems like (Guess who - the dude in another thread on this forum?), if there is a difference, will you really hear it?
post #3838 of 5067
Steve, I'm not talkin about his rig; I'm talkin bout mine. I've got this itch for some MSB gear since CES, pushed me toward HD tracks, etc etc.

I'm currently still using the RS20i prototype with my own CAT 2 channel setup, and I find myself not even using cds anymore... thus the question.

Dan
post #3839 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanFrancis View Post

Steve, I'm not talkin about his rig; I'm talkin bout mine. I've got this itch for some MSB gear since CES, pushed me toward HD tracks, etc etc.

I'm currently still using the RS20i prototype with my own CAT 2 channel setup, and I find myself not even using cds anymore... thus the question.

Dan

In general, I do hear the improvement in general with the hi rez audio stuff that I've bought from HD Tracks, compared to redbook in general.
E.G., Cat Stevens "Tea for the Tillerman" is simply sensational at 192-24!
You will need to experiment to "see" what you hear/think!
post #3840 of 5067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

In general, I do hear the improvement in general with the hi rez audio stuff that I've bought from HD Tracks, compared to redbook in general.
E.G., Cat Stevens "Tea for the Tillerman" is simply sensational at 192-24!
You will need to experiment to "see" what you hear/think!

I have found that the remastered hi rez is quite variable. "Tea for the Tillerman" is very good in both the digital hi rez and the new vinyl release. The hi rez from AIX seems to be the real deal but the content is just so, so, IMO.

Steve
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › The official "Theta" thread