The official "Theta" thread - Page 129

Ah - quit what BD? Don't answer that

I have it, the remastered Legend at 16/44 and of course at 24/192. There's more resolution at 24/192. Bob Marleys voice is clearer and there is more separation from the music. Also, I noticed that the guitar riffs have more decay and clearly more resolution. The 16/44 is slightly thin and tinny sounding in comparison. It's an old recording and I can still tell that however. I downloaded both copies even though I have the CD somewhere as well. That's another reason I am moving away from CD. I have managed to scratch some CD's as well as misplace a few. Bought a SkipDR, cleaned up a few scratched disk, and ripped those.

The best recording I have of Bob Marley is a MFSL,"Catch a Fire," with Bob on the cover with enjoying some wacky tobacky. Same story though, that I always hear with 16/44, much less "body," to instruments and I don't mean bass or anything. If the MSFL tapes could be sampled at 24/192, that would be something.

I'm willing to bet all those recordings sound even more "real" on vinyl.

Dan, keep in mind that the guys claiming vinyl sounds better than digital tend to do so on the basis of what they hear on ultra expensive hardware (TT, Cardrige, Phone Preamp). I'm willing to bet that if you spend $5K on digital hardware (say bryston + 3K dac), and $5K on analog hardware, the digital 192/24 file beats vinyl hands down.

Actually, the claim of vinyl sounding better has to do more with the dynamic range in the source used for the vinyl pressing. In most instances, the compression applied to the album master used on the vinyl is much less than the one used for CD. CDs are often used in cars or burned to portable devices. The need to compete with road or street noise is greater, so softer passages or elements in music are raised to be as loud as louder sounds, reducing dynamic range significantly. Hence why many albums actually have a hi-fi master and a compressed one. Unfortunately, the compressed ones are the ones seeing the light of day.

I listen to mostly rock, which is often brick walled for CD and is very fatiguing to listen to an album all the way through. I can't control how loud it is because the mastering engineer for the CD has already determined that for me. Most often, but not always, the vinyl format does use the engineer's preferred master with far more dynamic range as opposed to the CD one that is planned to be played back on a multitude of devices. Vinyl is often just spun for one listening condition, so the other more dynamic master is used. That's not the only reason, there are also reasons based on the vinyl technology. You'd be surprised on how radical these differences can be.

Let's take a look at Disturbed, a group I enjoy listening to. Here's a dynamic range scan of the vinyl of the album The Sickness:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=20185

Here's a scan of the same album on CD:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=20184

There's nearly a 7dB difference in dynamic range not because of the vinyl technology, but the master used for CD is compressed for cars and portable players. The CD sounds so loud and aweful. Ugh.

I picked up THE BLACK KEYS: El Camino this weekend. It came with the CD. Here's the vinyl:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=15811

Here's the CD:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=17482

Good music but it sounded exactly as it looks. Aweful.

So... I've had it with new CDs. Time for a good turntable. I'll use my CD player to spin older discs or for parties but that's about it.

HDTracks.com is interesting as it depends on the master used. Let's look at the Bob Marley Legend as discussed.

Cd: http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=2368

HDTracks: http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=20341

Not only do you have increased resolution, but it also appears to be from a much more dynamic master.

On the other hand you could listen to Eagles: Hotel California CD - http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=14934

The same album on HDTracks in high res: http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=18678

In sum, there's no guarantee that 24/96 files through $5000 of digital components will surpass a $5000 table. If the master used for the sources are the same, I would think you are correct. But as it stands, I'd rather listen to the CD or vinyl with 5dB-7dB greater dynamic range than a 24/96 version that's compressed with a maximum of 5dB dynamic range through most of the song. Just using a good $500 table will still give you much better results.

Anyways, this is a big reason why I've chosen to revisit vinyl, criticize "remastered" CDs, and be cautious with anything claiming high resolution. Unfortunately, we often don't find out until we've hit PLAY.

awesome info, thanks for that post.

I say lets give Michael his own forum to moderate here at AVS, where he can inform us re the dynamic range of music releases, CD, hi rez, vinyl!!!

In trying to make a "Theta" discussion out of this, let me first say that I agree with Michael about vinyl. I have always assumed that most audiophiles were transferring to digital music more for the convenience than for the quality - almost to the extent that they [we] are willing to sacrifice quality because the convenience is so great. What makes sense to me for audiophiles, and Theta-philes in particular, is to consider having the best of both worlds. That is to have the best in digital equipment such as the Complii Blu, CBIII HD, and GenVIII S3 but also a good TT for those times when you just want to sit there and do some serious listening or to use it as a standard to make comparisons between various digital formats.

Digital music has come a long ways since the early 80s. I can remember when the differences in SQ between the two mediums was so apparent, you wondered whether CDs were going to be around for very long. Now years later the SQ of CDs is certainly better miles ahead of where it was before but, in some cases, not yet equal to its vinyl cousin. OTOH, there is now Real Audio, Win Amp, Windows Media, VLC, Ipods, Itunes, Ipads, Pandora, 24 streaming, downloading, uploading - and the list just goes on and on. So take your pick. Having the best of both is probably not that hard to do anymore.

On the Theta discussion, with vinyl and CD and trying to get the best of both worlds, I think CD has the capability of sounding "better" than vinyl. If the same master of an album was used for both formats, I'd choose the CD route. There are awesome digital components out there, like my Ayre D-1xe CD player, or the Theta Gen. VIII that will play back these dynamic discs wonderfully. I'd much rather play back the CD versions of Pink Floyd (which have remained virtually untouched compared to their vinyl) to the vinyl. I'll take the small limitation of 16/44.1 through a Gen. VIII pre/DAC over growing clicks and pops, wow and flutter, the RIAA curve, and decreased sound quality at the interior of the record. There are just more benefits of the CD when the source is equal. But as a music lover, when the CD's music loudness level is being pre-determined for me before I sit in my chair, suddenly I'll take the drawbacks of vinyl because the extended dynamic range in the recording trumps all of the small drawbacks of vinyl on a good table. An analogy would be a movie studio using the Blu-ray disc format to only release standard definition versions of their movies. The capability of better quality is there, but the argument of "not everyone has HDTV" is being used to determine the quality for release.

Ever wonder why you don't need to crank the volume up as loud on the dial with newer recordings as you do with older ones? The "volume" on the CD has already been pushed up to the limit with little headroom for dynamic peaks.

Getting the best of both worlds would be in hopes that all HDTracks would be the "preferred" lesser compressed edition of the album. After all, we're not downloading MP3s for the masses, people seeking high rez are probably interested in the best sound quality and most dynamic recordings! Until this happens, only then will I retire the turntable.

I have started ripping my collection. Working on DVD-A and CD first.,My Sony PS3, won on eBay should ship today. When it arrives, I'll start ripping my SACD collection. I think the relevance to Theta is there is clearly a shift for music at least to server based audio. Theta is going to have to decide if they want to concede what will likely be the dominate source of music at some near future point to devices produced by other companies. I agree with Steve that Theta needs a product similar to the Bryston BDP-1.

Well - fact is, we all knew this was coming. It's been on the horizon for quite some time now. And the industry is now moving aggresivley toward digital media with as few transfer platforms as possible. This is a little scary but probably right on target once you get used to the concept. I would only argue that it's not just Theta that needs a counterpart to the Bryston unit - it's the whole industry. It would be nice if Theta could take a bold lead though and include not just music but digital media in general. Ultimately, that's where it is headed in my view - and to it, I just don't see a downside for quite some time.

You sir make a lot of sense.

Thanks! (I should also add monaural bass to the list of negatives of vinyl as well - when the source used is equal, pre-RIAA curve! The SNR and dynamics of the vinyl format are just far lower than CD - again when source used is equal.)

Hi Michael, It's not often, if ever, that I run across someone else that has an Ayre D1xe and Theta CBIII. Although, I use mine in my 2-channel system, which also consist of Ayre K1xe and a V1xe. I must admit, I've never tried the audio section of my D1xe with the CBIII. I've only experimented with movies. My CBIII is equipped with 1 Extreme DAC and a Standard balanced DAC. I don't have a Gen VIII...someday hopefully. I, too, have a turntable with my CBIII. It's not "state of the art," but it sure sounds pretty good. I hv a Project RM-10 w/Sumiko Blackbird cartridge. How is ur D1xe set up? Which cables are u using with it? I really enjoy the way my D1xe sounds in my 2-channel system. Thanks and happy listening!

Playing DSD files with no problem on my PC, no skips. Don't want to convert to PCM because my future equipment could include a dac that would playback DSD native. Not saying this so please don't get started with recs. Going to have the Gen VIII for a long time but am sure I will have DSD files longer.

Hi Sparks

Actually, I don't have a CIII-HD yet. It's on the horizon, but not yet. I'm using the D-1xe and K-1xe as a pair for two channel, with an Integra DTC-9.8 though the Ayre (balanced input #3 and set to unity gain). All channels are powered by 7 Theta Enterprises. I'm not familiar with the analogue section of the CIII. I've been told by a few, when compared to the K-1xe, it's mediocre at best and not to use the analogue inputs of the CIII. The CIII shines as a digital-in device as it should with Extremes. For you to compare the resolution of the CIII's digital section to your D-1xe's digital section would be an interesting comparison, as the D-1xe is a great sounding CD player. Maybe if you get the chance to try that out, that would be great, although you'd need to go through another preamp that isn't gonna touch the Ayre's analogue section. I believe the CIII doesn't have a 100% analogue direct option, although I could be wrong there.

I'm getting a new turntable this week. I'm picking up the Clearaudio Solution without an arm. I haven't decided on the arm yet, as I need to find out one that has a DIN plug on it so I can put DIN-to-balanced cables on it. I want to go balanced directly from the MC cartridge, as cartridges are inherently balanced, and go directly to the balanced phono stage in my Ayre K-1xe. The extra bit of gain and noise rejection will be that much more beneficial in my fully balanced system.

The Casablanca does have a 100% analog path, Analog direct. Even digital in, none of these surround processors can compete with Ayre for sound quality. The Gen VIII is the only solution for me with music. I never used the Casablanca for music. That's what is so exciting now. I am not forced into solely using the internals of a prepro for multichannel music. The option for mulitple Gen VIII, room corrected with Dirac live is an expensive approach but one with few sonic compromises. The only competition that Theta offers to Ayre is the Gen VIII. Don't have a clue as to which is better.

Deja vu to an old debate we had back a few years ago about the ability of a SSP to support both muti-channel and 2 channel playback at the highest level. I think the general concession was that it could not - that at some point one would get sacrificed in support of the other - and morely likely, it would be the 2 channel stuff that would loose, given the general purpose of a SSP to begin with. So now we have the CBIII HD paralelled and in series with the Gen VIII S3 - offering the option for optimum playback in both domains - and the field for optimizing good sourcing equipment is now open.

If this proves to be the case, in that the Gen VIII either equals or surpasses mt Ayre components (the K-1xe as an analogue preamp, or it's digital bettering the D-1xe), then I'd be happy to take the Ayre K-1xe out of the main system and not worry about setting the volume at unity gain (this makes me extremely nervous leaving it there just in case someone else walks in the room, changes the input, and forgets to move the volume back.) Problem solved with Gen. VIII.

Far be it from me to an advocate the removal of any Ayre equipment from anyone's system. I just won't go there. But I do seem to remember back when I was just starting to intergrate 2 channel and multi-channel systems. I was very fond of BAT equipment in those days and I remember a comparison I made between the GenVa/BATVK5i vs a direct run through the CBI. It was unmistakable that for 2 channel, the Gen Va/BAT VK5i setup literally walked away as the best sound without a doubt. The CBI was great but it was obviously not built to compete at that level for 2 channel music. Conversely of course, the BAT equipment was not built for movies. So there you had it. When the Gen VIII came along, I could only think about what it would be like to have it in my system as an alternative to the BAT for preamp and as an alternative to the Gen Va as a DAC - in passthrough mode for movies sourcing the two main speakers and of course, as a direct link to any number of digital sources for 2 channel playback. That capability is now here. So the downstream equipment that Theta brings to the table is geared to compete with anyone out there right now. The interesting thing to me will be what they do for upstream sourcing. With the exception of the Bryston unit, no one sems to be taking digital media seriously - which may prove to provide the next level of distinction moving forward.

You can read Steve's impressions from page 126 onwards and various comparisons he did. There will be couple more who will post shortly but it seems like it is a winner

Michael, I think Gen8 will give Ayre K1xe a run for its money. I have not compared but I do know Gen8 was equal if not better pre-amp as compared to Placette Active pre I owned once upon a time. It is a matter of time but CB3HD+dig out+Gen8 could be a winning combination IMHO.

Regards,
Kishore

Javry, Interesting! I use a BAT VK-6200 (Multi-channel amp) with my CBIII. You wouldn't believe the sound! I find myself listening to music in my theater room sometimes. There's something different and fun while listening to CBIII/BAT VK-6200 combo. Still quite enjoyable I must say. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to experience a Gen VIII someday soon. Hearing u guys talk about the Gen VIII all the time, sure makes me salivate. happy Listening

For those still looking for alternates offering high rez downloads or streams, I found this on the Linn site.

Hi guys. Slowly making my way through this entire thread - well from pg 78 anyway. I have a rather neglected CB III with 2 x Xtreme DACs and a bunch of Egglestonworks speakers (Andras that have just been upgraded to Andra IIIs - got them back last week - Andra centre and Rosas for the rear units). I want to upgrade the CB III to HD and so have been catching up on everything here (that which I understand anyway).

I have a question (to start with) that's not directly related to Theta but I thought I would ask it anyway. My BD/DVD player is an ageing Pioneer BDP 95FD (I use an even older Theta DaVid for audio CD) which could probably do with an update. Many of you seem to be fans of Oppo. I guess my perhaps rude question is what can I expect from an Oppo (versus an updated unbelievably cheap Pioneer) when it's basically reading bits and doing little processing when run alongside a CB III/CB III HD? I guess there's the video side of things. Secondly, am I right to be hanging on to using the DaVid for CD or should I switch all to the Oppo and retire the DaVid? (I don't have any SACD source material.)

Lastly, I am experiencing a little but annoying (and probably basic) issue with the 3.5 mm mono phone power triggers on the back of the CB III when connected to a Krell KAV 300i power amp (bridged centre channel amplification). The first KAV is connected to a second KAV (rear speaker amplification) via another 3.5mm mono cable. (I have a Krell FPB running the Andra IIIs.) When I take the CB III out of standby via the button on the front panel, the amps are powered on and then immediately off again. Ideas?

BTW given the range of the Andras and Rosa I am running them all on FULL and only using XOVERLR for the centre channel. (The sub is a - again ageing - REL Stentor II.) Make sense?

Thanks in advance for the advice. The knowledge gathered here is simply fantastic.

Regards

Steve

There are different trigger settings. Some amps want a pulse to turn on and a pulse to turn off. Other amps, sounds like yours, need a constant trigger with constant voltage. Try changing your trigger settings from pulse to constant.

Stevekale, Sounds like a nice system you got there. I, too, have a CBIII. I'm using BAT VK-6200 and Dynaudio Confidence C2's up front and Contours for center and rears. I have the Pioneer Elite BDP-09...it was their flagship a couple a years ago. I thought it was the cat's meow. But, then I saw and heard the Oppo BDP-95 on the same plasma that I own...Pioneer Elite Kuro 151. The picture outperformed my Bdp-09. The audio is very good as well. I don't remember how the David sounded. I'm considering the Compli Blu because I still have a few SACDs.

Cheers!

Dude! before I scrolled down the page, I was telling myself" I'll bet BD is all over this one" - good to see you're still the man with the plan.

Glad you see it that way . BIg Brother is telling me,"Man when do you sleep? Every time I look you are posting on AVS."

Steve - If you're going to do the upgrade to HD before changing out the players, I would wait and see how the pioneer plays on it before switching. That's information you may want down the road. If OTOH, you're planning on switching out players independent of when you do the HD upgrade, I would then consider consolidating all into one platform since the quality of players these days allows for it. You can always still keep the David and the Pioneer around long enough to do some A/B testing but my guess is it will get old after a while. I like Sparks idea of the Complii Blu but since your question is about Oppo, I'd say it's pretty solid and I can't see you going wrong with it.

Since you've read through the thread, you probably know by now that most of us are audiophiles in videophile clothing. And since you're one of the few folks we've come across with Egglestons - how about some words on their sound coming through a Theta/Krell setup?

me thinks BB sees you all the way through - he hit my sentiments excactly