The official "Theta" thread - Page 132

No I can't, I still have my six shooter with my Theta compli

BTW I thought I'd let you guys know I ordered my Oppo 93 today. I made the purchase in the UK which was unusual for me as it typically costs a lot more than buying in the US and transporting back. The CB III will go off to Theta next week. Slowly but surely upgrading...Thanks for the advice here.

There's about 4 of these that I wanted to share with you guys. They're so long I figured I would break them up into individual posts. Most of it deals with digital audio but I would guess at least some of the same applies to video as well. To me, this is the future like it or not - and I'd be real surprised if our folks at ATI/Theta aren't figuring out how to manage it in their favor. I wonder what that could be? are we talking a Theta app to install on an iPhone, a Theta type Droid, a thumb drive, or a full out device like Steve's Bryston unit? or all the above? Either way, according to these gents and a whole host of others, the delivery system for digital content is undergoing significant change.

Here is Mr. Hansen from Ayre and his opinion - as only he can say it.

An interesting and somewhat challenging perspective from our Japanese couterparts sheds light on the fact that while this issue resides primarily in the west, it is significant in some other corners of the world.

...and from our friends at Audioquest...

Here's the link for those that want to read it.

http://www.audiostream.com/content/f...computer-audio

Some other questions from me. I was thinking about some of the comments in this thread about the quality of HDMI as a connection. Without yet having the Oppo 93 in my hands, am I likely to be better off running audio (CD/SACD) via the coaxial digital out connection to the CB III rather than via HDMI (which presumably I would use for DVD/BD)? I need to poke around as to what coaxial cable I have but I believe I have a mixture of Audioquest (need to check details) and Straightwire Megalink II. Is the latter any good (taking into account that it is just shifting bits)?

I haven't bothered too much getting into the nitty gritty of setting up the CB III until it is upgraded but one thing I am wondering about is setting up DD, DTS etc with DACs for side and surround but only one set of these connected to amps/speakers. Perhaps this can wait until the unit has come back in HD.

(For interconnect I am running balanced xlr Audioquest Audiotruth Opal x 3 Air Hyperlitz Triple Balanced FPC-6 Copper to the Krell FPB 200 and Audioquest Quartz x 3 Hyperlitz Triple Balanced FPC-6 Copper to my Krell KAV 150a amps driving the centre (bridged) and surround. If these aren't any good please let me know.)

TIA

Steve
Edited by stevekale - 6/6/12 at 9:42am

For starters, coax will not transmit the full resolution sacd signal (only HDMI will). For CD coax should be better in theory, but I believe CBIII HD owners have reported not hearing a difference.

Hi Steve, the processor was indeed out of the rack and placed on a pedestal. Photography is my other hobby and for my Casablanca I made sure to use every trick in the book to make it look pretty. :-) Canon 1D, Canon 35mm f/1.4 and 85mm f/1.2, raw format developed with Capture One/Phase One for anyone interested.

We have similar equipments; I too use Krell amp and Audioquest cables. The only reason I use the big boy FPB 600 (and MDA 300 before that) is my Thiel speakers go to 2 ohm in the bass range and nothing less will do. I am certain for most speakers the 200 is more than enough. I saw your question regarding the cables. It could generate 200 posts :-) and go nowhere so I think just listen for yourself and use what sounds best to you. In my system I use Illuminati D60 coaxial like this Audiogon Kimber Illuminati D60 , mainly because I happen have a couple around the house unused :-). FWIW for HDMI I use the PS Audio Perfectwave HDMI cable.

I am beginning to like this shot more and more. Could someone forward this to Jeff Hipps, Theta, etc. so I maybe could get some royalty for my art ?



Edited by cannga - 6/6/12 at 11:41am

Nice lens. I need to upgrade my 1Ds II - yet another thing on my list... (£15k for a baby birth in the UK puts a few things on the back burner though.)

I'm just trying to figure out if I have any really weak points - i.e. if you guys were to fall off your chairs laughing at my interconnect etc I would give thought to adding it to the upgrade list. The Andras came back bi-wired and so the front L/R speaker cables have been added to the list (regrettably). (That has, for example, pushed the BDP-1 to the back burner for now.) All this stuff is way overpriced in the UK (change the $ to a £ and add 20% VAT) and given I am also a man of principle I'm reluctant to demo here and then buy in the US (I get there several times a year).


Ah ok. I thought it was the other way around with HDMI constrained (else illegal). Hmm, I will have to re-read the posts. Thx.

Great pics !!

This is the Cb3HD Hot Lips version..

I love it !!

Craig

Does anyone know if Theta was at the 'T.H.E Show'? For some reason I thought they would be demo-ing the DIRAC stuff

I thought there was a Theta demo. I was at the show, even ran into Jeff (Hipps), and managed to miss the Theta room! I am still very upset about it; that's why I have not written anything.

I did have a demo by Curt Hoyt of the capability of Trinnov room correction. Curt was quite a pleasant gentleman, and extremely knowledgeable of course. I could not draw much conclusion out of the demo, mainly because it is not a full system setup, rather just showing the capability of room correction. I *was* surprised how much it changed the mid and high; i.e. the all critical voice/instrument area. But as mentioned, this was a very temporary setup and very obviously not representative of a full-blown calibrated Trinnov system; for example Curt was using 3 different pairs of speakers arranged asymmetrically in a hotel room.

I wonder if Theta will ever have a demo similar to what Dan Francis did, say somewhere in Southern California? Anyone at Theta reading this, hopefully? Anyway, next year for sure I will be at the Theta/Dirac room because I am very curious and somewhat leery of what room correction does to the mid-range. Reading between the lines from Dan's (Francis) postings; it seems he thinks bass correction is critical, and that bass correction doesn't necessarily have to be done by room correction device, equalizer will suffice??? (Dan please correct me if I read your mind wrong :-); am still learning from this overwhelmingly confusing topic.)
Edited by cannga - 6/6/12 at 10:28pm

Theta were there, a couple doors down from Trinnov, with the same demo as CES (2-channel set-up with Dirac). Dropped in to say hi to Jeff, ended up having a loooong chat with Morris Kessler about what's coming up with ATI, Theta and B&K. Since Jeff was giving me the non-disclosure evil-eye the whole time, I'll just say that CEDIA will hopefully bring some welcome news for all three brands.

You can set Dirac to only cover say 300hz down. If you use an outboard device like many currently are doing, you only use it on the crossed over frequencies to the sub. The problem is that many cross over at 80hz which leaves the range from 80hz to around 300hz,uncorrected which often has a lot of room modes. I use heavy room treatments to address the modes. Dirac Live is the first time that Theta owners have had digital correction able to target above the traditional subwoofer range but still bass frequency range. I have no intention of using Dirac in the midrange or highs. LIve unamplified musici is my reference and I have heard plenty of it, not some curve created by Dirac. Sitll Dirac will be a great asset in region above the traditional subwoofer crossover. I say a must have for most because it offers a way to address bass digitally with minimal impact on fidelity.

As you know, your room and speakers are already changing the "reference", and the correction may help address those changes. How about a curve you created? As you may remember, that is one of the great features of Dirac, how easy it is to create multiple "house" curves (and I'm guessing Theta will have multiple memories to save each, and then you can compare to your heart's content. One could easily argue that leaving the signal alone can have an even greater detrimental impact on fidelity, since the room/speaker is "distorting" the source (software) in a manner that can be corrected through DSP. Also, if the goal is to approach what the source (not the software) experientially really sounds like, then the appropriate curve can be used to increase that level of experience (you could even develop curves for different recording engineers ). Alternatively one could argue that we should pursue what sounds right to us since I seem to remember findings from Harman's work on sound reproduction that suggests there are some qualitative relationships between what sounds experientially right and what is accurate (of course, the problem could be reducing this general finding to the individual).
Edited by Raul GS - 6/7/12 at 8:48am

Well ...

I am not running the Theta product but I do have Dirac Live running in my demo room in both a Datasat RS20i and in my own KAD DL2. The version of Dirac Live IP running in the DL2 is identical to what will be in the Theta Casablanca. I am up in Bakersfield, CA. My demo theater is a very dynamic 5.4 system built using studio and commercial cinema grade equipment. I'd be glad to give you a demo (liquid libations??) and answer any questions about Dirac Live should you want to make the trip.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm Notice the absorption above 250Hz for three inches of OC705. What you say is not true for my last room. If flat is what you want above 300hz, there are cheaper and more effective ways to do it. Earlier approaches at room correction sought to eliminate the room, not recreate it. Besides, I contacted Dirac directly and asked. Now the debate about personal preference and perceptually flat is a separate one. What am I to do at a live un-amplified performance? Guess they will make some hearing aids so I can hear my wife's uncles play live un-amplified jazz outdoors so that I can hear it ,"correctly,"? Ridiculous! I remember when one of her uncles died a few years back, and the trumpet player stood in the street and blew a note so pure, it touched me, right before the jazz funeral started. Ok, need those perceptually flat creating hearing aids again, so I could better appreciate those notes:rolleyes:.

The bottom line is that Dirac itself is not taking an extreme a position.. I would suggest anyone contact Dirac directly for advice. I think all audiophiles will like the answers. Besides, have you actually gotten around to using Dirac live yourself ? I completely understand the theory and am past that point.

I wish I were in your area!

Hmm let me think... some former DTS and Datasat engineer/manager has just offered to give me a demo on his "very dynamic" system using studio and commercial cinema grade equipment. This is difficult.

Actually the answer is a resounding YES! In fact a nutty audiophile friend of mine has already expressed interest to accompany me after I've told him who you are and what is being demo'ed here.

I have some summer vacation with family coming up, so is sometimes towards the latter part of this summer ok with you please? And is it ok on a Saturday? If that sounds good, I'lll touch base with you by PM or email regarding an appropriate date? Perahps other forum members from Southern Cal may want to join the demo too so I think that will be fun. Thanks Carl.
Edited by cannga - 6/7/12 at 1:24pm

Come on up!

I invite you to form a group. My wife and I will put out some BBQ and liquid libations! Latter part of the summer is fine. In fact latter part of the summer is ideal in that we should have put the 'final, final' touches on the DL2 by then. Sounds like a good time. Let's plan on it!
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

touche. I did suggest that rooms were critical, but you are right, the level of correction needed depends on the room. I think you may misunderstand the research. You are not trying to reproduce sound in a manner that compensates for your hearing loss, since that is not how you hear live anyways. There is an argument to be made that you should seek what sounds right to you No, you want a sound system that reproduces it in the same manner you heard it; i.e. you do not attempt to compensate for hearing loss because your brain already does that to some degree, and you don't experience that loss when you listen and compare the sound to live. Who is suggesting one do so, on the contrary, what I was suggesting was that one could use house curves to address personal preferences. I would suggest that the extreme position is the one that contends one should not setup a sound reproduction system in a manner that pleases one Is not a question of understanding the theory, but rather the boundaries you are suggesting exist that some us may not concur. As to my listening to the product....I'm still too early in my process to suggest anything about what curves will work best for me...but at least I know the tools are there once I need them

I'd jump all over this one if I was close to where Carl is.

Thanks for doing this Carl. looking forward to a short review afterwards?

Well perhaps if Jeff is viewing; I could have another little shootout between a Casblanca HD/Dirac and our Cinema Reference....hint.....Jeff....hint....Morris?....please....pretty-please???

I mean, it IS Chicago in the summer: Lollapalooza, Blues Fest, Grant Park, the lake... it's the best time of year to visit...

Overall, what I gleaned from my work was that both Trinnov and Dirac did a very good job dealing with the loudspeaker/room interactions, though they did it slightly differently (obviously). The biggest "impact" no pun intended, came from bass correction- which is quite difficult to achieve in our demo room: given the number and locations of subwoofers. Dirac was actually hindered in that regard by the Datasat firmware: the way bass management handled "4" subwoofers was not how I wanted it- but we didn't realize that until much later in the process.

Let me state plainly:

If used for JUST loudspeaker/room correction, both Dirac and Trinnov are very good- and I have zero misgivings using either technology in the band from 20hz-20khz. BUT the 3D remapping Trinnov utilizes is par-excellence in a multi-channel playback system, and that puts it ahead of competing technologies.

DEMO SUGGESTION: "Act of Valor" - Hot Extraction scene, with and without 3D remapping especially when the pickup is hit with the LAW rocket.

my .02

Dan

"Thanks for doing this Carl. looking forward to a short review afterwards?"

Not a problem! I look forward to the opportunity to finally meet face to face with some of you. It should be a good time!!
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Hmm not only that, there is no SACD at all over coax as I found out this evening when I rushed home to try my first SACD. :-( It is prevented on the Oppo for copyright reasons. So I definitely have to wait for the CB III to come back from Theta before I can have a listen.

BTW the Oppo remote is very close to being the ugliest I have ever seen - quite a contrast between that and the unit itself and its packaging.
Edited by stevekale - 6/8/12 at 2:14pm

Dan thanks for clarifying. BD, I think you understand my concern well. As an audiophile - hopefully in the good sense of the word - with a very open mind, I welcome Theta's adventure into room correction signal processing, but can't help a certain degree of angst. Over many years of experimenting and $$$, if I have to name one parameter that I have tried to achieve in my system, it is "transparency." To me this means a feeling of intimacy to the artist without any veiling, to hear the details of voice and instruments. I know better than to use the dreaded expression "reproducing original event," so that's NOT the point here. And of course I am not implying that this is the right approach, merely that it is mine. In my photography hobby, there is a similar quality which I call "clarity." The implication is the same, no veiling, and it is the reason I like to use primes much more than zooms.

When I've tried cheap/bad signal processing devices so far ("bad" to be changed soon with hopefully my audition of Carl's KAD DL2/Dirac system), I have always been struck by the alteration of the midrange. Sound becomes warmer and more spacious, but details and intimacy are lost. Worse, in some cases the voice sounds different; not better, just different. And regardless of "which" voice is right or wrong, this bothers me greatly. What I hope for in Dirac and Theta, is a system that will allow me to have it all: full, spacious sound without sacrificing details of voice and instruments. I want to hear the bombs *and* the guitar strings being struck and no alteration of singer's voice.

I hope Theta takes these issues into consideration when they integrate Dirac. The Dirac upgrade cannot hurt the current tremendous sound quality, and Theta must realize some of their clients are not normal (honestly is anyone spending this much for a processor, in this economy, considered normal? ), but a bunch of nit picking type A detail freaks who cry foul at the slightest hint of perceived midrange "alteration," rightly or wrongly! :-)
Edited by cannga - 6/8/12 at 8:40pm

That's not what I am suggesting that by the term,"hearing aid." I realize that term is generally used to refer to hearing loss. What I am suggesting is a device to aid one to hear perceputually flat in a live music event. Come, now ? The research is simple and no references to hearing loss are made anywhere in the discussion. What is discussed is that natural hearing is not linear and that we may have a preference for certain curves, Many audiophile consider unamplified, live music to be their reference. House curves would seem to make that never one's reference.

Preferences are based to a large part upon past references and experiences. The mass-market is typically the target for research because that's where the profits are. At least two of the current room correction platforms were first deployed in automobiles. I would submit that is a different market from the audiophile and warned that research for the mass-market may not perfectly correlate with a niche audiiophile segement.

Dirac recognizes this. I find the company very helpful and not extremist like some appear to be accepting every single tenant of their "theory," when at the same time accepting Harman's research. I note that if we both accept the paper and look at the threads and subjective reports of users of the room corrections that did not perform well, you will not see much more than complete unquestioning acceptance. When fully 1/3 of the room corrections were no better than no correction or made things worst, it looks like many are just ,"the blind faithful." I would suggest that you actually use this technology and gain some experience, based upon the Harmon studies, before you accept these products with no first hand knowledge and no blind testing.

This may sound like I am anti-room correction which could not be further from the truth. I would point out, that I am on the record here on this forum reporting my personal experience that matched the Harmon study and the vast majority blindly accepted these technologies based upon theory. How do you ,"sugar coat," that some corrections showed no improvements or made matters worse? Why I am I on board now? It certainly is not based upon Dirac live because I have not used it. Yes, I have to actually try it myself. Yes, I will try it," blind," NO, I am not about to accept ANYTHING based purely on theory. I am on board now because of my, " hands on experience," with the Mcintosh MX150. This has lead to my realization that theory has finally caught up with application.