The official "Theta" thread - Page 145

OK, then we agree then. digital volume control is not some kind of maker for a "modern" dac. The Casablanca's implementation of HDMI resolved the question of whether jitter over HDMI would prove inferior vs an analog connection with the Six Shooter or SPDIF connection. Hey, I thought it would. You believed so and chose your path, the Marantz long before there was any mention of Dirac Live. I was thrilled to see it not happen, HDMI being inferior to the previous design. I am thrilled at the potential to be rid of all of the cables. That's what HDMI brought. Theta's implementation from subjective assessements, has also not degraded the sound but after all the debate actually improved it. Could sound be improved even further? The debate however focused solely on how HDMI would degrade the sound. Nice to see that apparently did not happen.

This works precisely because the Trinnov volume control is digital. If I turn down the Trinnov volume this impacts both the analog outputs of the Trinnov (which drive my center channel), and the digital output on the Trinnov (which drive my PWD MKII). The Trinnov DSP doing this is 32 bit. As long as I don't attenuate too much I am losing no resolution doing this.

The Offramp has no impact on volume anywhere in the chain. It just provides the digital source signal.

Some expensive DACs with volume control are all analog (MBL, MSB) some are hybrid (Aestethix, Weiss) and some are digital (Berkeley, DCS, TotalDac). I believe with a 64 bit DSP architecture you can implement a digital volume control with absolutely no loss of resolution. I don't really care one way or the other. I have a budget and 2 ears driving my buying decisions, not a specsheet.

HDMI is a protocol for multi channel with a completely different set of considerations. Even if HDMI is implemented sounding as good as S/PDIF, the problem is still you cannot get the signal into a 2 channel DAC or Trinnov processor without downsampling because of the licensing restriction, so you are resticted to the DACs that come with the SSP (or need to downsample). The only two machines with HDMI input, full blown DRC and good DACs in one box are ADA reference and Datasat. CBIII HD with Dirac would be number 3. Since I have a simple 5.0 system and focus on SACD the modded Oppo route beats all of these three options hands down.
Edited by edorr - 9/12/12 at 2:25pm

The dac then has to run at near max volume or at least at near the maximum levels you want to use to listen. Basically you are using the Trinnov in the same
manner that a passive preamp would be used. The passive basically controls volume by reducing the signal. The passive can never increase the signal past the output of the dac.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Theta does not yet have Dirac live. Your set-up is a kludge that most will find very unacceptable. Hey I don't mind a kludge if the end result is the best sound. Your set up is beyond what even I would do however.. If it works for you great. Sometimes we have to stand alone. I moved to 7.2 some years back. I never regretted it. 11.1 may come at some point or at least 9.2.

Have you actually heard all three of these processors? I wasn't aware you had tried Datasat or the Casablanca HD to be ranking them? I think Dan Francis is the only person here with hands on experience with all three?Well I'm not sure even Dan has used the HD version.
Edited by Bulldogger - 9/12/12 at 5:32pm

The Trinnov has a 32 bit DSP engine that uses dithering to control volume in software. I can use any combination of volume settings between the Trinnov and the PWD to get the same level. If I turn down the PWD by 10db and the Trinnov up by 10db I get the same volume. I have the PWD at 80 (this is - 10db), because that gives my mains about the same output level (in Db) as my center, which is far less sensitive than my mains.

Since I have no active analog preamp anywhere in the chain, my highest volume level is determined by the output voltage of the Offramp (In fact, I can actually go over 0db in the Trinnov - just another calculation in the digital domain - but I think this will create signal distortion). However, offramp at 0db attenuation is plenty loud - and I would possibly blow up my drivers playing at this level. My center is the real contraint in how loud I can play, because of its low sensitivity. Most listening is around -20db on Trinnov. Ad -10db from the PWD at setting 80 and I am playing at -30db.

Very true. You did buy my EVC and are pondering an Oppo mod yourself, so there is some potential kludgeness there. But you won't match the complexity of my system anytime soon. For all the complexity it is 100% stable, with the exception of JRiver 17. I reboot my server 2/3 times a week.

the PC program DVD Audio Extractor was recently upgraded to supposedly provide extraction of two channel hi rez PCM from blu ray discs.
I will be trying this shortly with some of my many blu ray concert discs.

It will be interesting to play the blu ray concert disc in hi rez PCM 2 channel over HDMI, then over digital coax, from the Compli Blu. and then to pay the same hi rez PCM stereo track which DVD Audio Extractor extracted to my USB hard drive, connected to my Bryston BDP-1, over either BNC digital to Gen VIII Series 3 DAC, or via AES/EBU digital to CB3 HD!!@@

Curiosity satified. I'll stick it in the closet. I had never seen one and wanted to see what it looked like on the inside. Build quality is typical Theta,highest I've seen. Theta was ahead of it's time with external dac intergration and still is ahead of everyone else. One HDMI cable from Oppo to a future Casablanca HD and one coax cable to Gen VIII. It will not even be a shadow of what you are doing. Two Six Shooters was enough of a cable experience. I am still not sure I will use the EVC. I may sell it. No one I know has ever seen one that I know. No one had a clue as to what parts were inside.

I found that you do better with Jriver when you select only the stable versions and don't upgrade as soon as the new one is released.
Edited by Bulldogger - 9/12/12 at 5:34pm

So how did we get to digital out over HDMI from an Oppo is lousy? (I'm too lazy to wade back through the posts to find where this was vehemently expressed.)

Just to clarify, there's no restriction embedded in HDMI licensing that throttles the bit rate, correct? The designers of a player such as the Oppo made a design decision not a licensing one when they decided to output digital LPCM from an SACD at 88kHz.
Edited by stevekale - 9/16/12 at 3:07am

Wrong guy :)You will have to ask Edorr that one about the lousiness of HDMI. IIMO the Oppo is not lousy at anything. It's a great player and a tremendous value . There does however seem to be a consensus that by either buying a player based upon if with a linear supply used for digital or adding an aftermarket one, improvements can be had. I do note that Secrets did not test audio over HDMI citing high jitter. Everyone that is local to me absolutely love the Oppo players.

I have an Oppo 93 hooked up to my CBIII HD and it is the best, most reliable blu-ray player I have ever had. It's quiet, quick and all for a relative steal. It is probably the least troublesome piece in my meager set-up.

Sean

????? There are two separate issues.

Issue 1: The alleged inferiority of HDMI as a protocol to carry highrez audio. I am guilty as charged advocating this theory. May be after years of R&D Theta has cracked the code on HDMI and it is no longer an issue - who knows. even if they did, I contend HDMI is still an inferior protocol to carry highrez audio and better results could have been achieved had similar amounts of R&D money been spend optiizing another protocol. Whatever.

Issue 2: The alleged inferiority of the Oppo as an HDMI transport relative to other transports including Marantz and Pioneer. I am NOT and advocate of this theory. In fact I am agnostic on the issue because I have not compared HDMI transports and take Kal R. at his word (and ears) that the Oppo as as good an HDMI transport as any. However, a recently as a few days ago this theory was advocated by BD, which is probably what Stevekale is alluding to.

Correct. They probably figures all DSP engines in a SSP run at 96/24 tops anyway so who needs 176/24? May be true for MCH, but a lot of folks wanting to play 2 channel SACD straights into a DAC would benefit a lot from 176/24.

I had both an Oppo 83 and 93. Neither sounded good coaxial digital out. Over HDMI, the Marantz UD9004,and then and now the Theta Compli Blu, sounded appreciably better, both for redbook/DVD-A and blu ray music and movies.

Steve ... any opinion of the 83 or 93 via HDMI?

He mentioned it is bested by the Compli Blu and Marantz. It would be interesting to see how an Oppo 93 with Dr. Lee's linear power supply (a $300 easy DIY mod) would stack up. I have a modded 93 with this powersupply and will soon have a standard 93 as well. I could do an A/B shootout, but only comparing coax out, because I don't haven an HDMI processor.

Lets see if I can go down memory lane here.

I had the Oppo 83 probably 2 years.

Bought Marantz UD9004 which sounded much better than the 83 into the Six Shooter, sold the 83 immediately.

Bit more than a year later, got the Theta CB3 HD HDMI upgrade. Also decided to get an Oppo 93 to try.

Took out the Six Shooter. Found that the Marantz sounded appreciably better over HDMI than the Oppo 93.

Shortly thereater, decided to try Theta Compli Blu. Found that it sounded as good, perhaps even better over
HDMI than the Marantz, sold the Marantz.

So due to the above time frame and use of gear I never really compared the Oppo 83 vs the Oppo 93 over HDMI into the
CB3 HD. Oh well!

I wonder why. I'm not familiar with the Marantz but I wonder which part of its construction gave it the edge.

I am very likely to give a Dr Lee power supply a go in my Oppo 93 but it will be hard to do AB testing from memory.

Expect to see that change in the new models. I'd also expect gapless playback.

Theta also modified the boards,made them thicker I believe and some other mods. Everyone always forgets that part . The power supply was the prominent part but it was not the only thing. I hope to see a new Theta player at CES, based upon the new Oppo models. May be too soon however, but we'll see.

Which of the Oppo boards do you think Theta was able to make thicker?

I'm sorry. It's not the boards. It's the PCB tracks. "Changes that Theta has made to the basic Oppo player are as follows: the mechanism is now damped rather than sprung and has been moved to a lower position in the transport for stability; while the chassis has been built from thicker-gauge steel and the PCB tracks doubled in thickness.

The internal firmware has also been customised for the Theta and is regularly updated. The high-capacity (seven-amp) power section has been completely respecified. It is now a linear design based on four independently rectified and regulated supplies and multiple transformers, headlined by an 80-watt torroid." It's been awhile since I checked out the player and my memory is a little rusty.

Hello ,

Do you have any news from Cedia, Dirac ?

The Oppo already has gapless. Not sure I follow. You mention Theta just catching up because it will use the newer model as a base? If Theta get into the nuts and bolts of the DSD->PCM conversion and the digital section (rather than just power supply and chassis changes) then I'd be interested if at the right price.
Edited by stevekale - 9/16/12 at 3:11am

I don't have the player. I saw several post that when you use a USB drive, playback was not gapless. That was my reference. You mentioned lack of 24/88 support so yes in that respect using a new model may give you 24/176. Perhaps you should look elsewhere. Typically if one company does not offer the product I want, I look to another. No idea who might have exactly the player to suit your needs.All of the products that I own are not from one company for that reason. Only you know your needs and what constitutes a "right price."

With the addition of the tokenizer to Irule, I have been able to get feedback working. Search for Theta Digital and the feedback is Theta Casablanca III BD2X. Volume,input, power state, soundfields for DD PRO2x movies,etc are all working. I am using status level 1 on the Casablanca.
Edited by Bulldogger - 9/18/12 at 12:47pm

The Oppo 93 is no longer available, and a newer model is in the works (planned release towards year end). I guess the Compli 93 won't happen. I will probably scoop up a 2nd 93 (at a premium over MSRP) so I have a backup in case mine fails.

i don't think there was ever a plan to use the Oppo 93. I hope not as I have previously said.. A player that can convert SACD at 24/176 makes more sense. Typically Theta does not offer players, or most high-end companies, based upon the very next model. They could never keep up with new models as fast as Oppo releases them. The Oppo- BDP-103 makes more sense. I remember you were once an advocate of Audio Rate Control. I don't see much discussion about that anymore. What's Oppo's position?

I am doing feedback for the Gen VIII tomorrow. A sorely missed feature is the ability to read sample rates. I'll get back to doing all of Theta products in the next couple of days. Theta has RS232 for it's amps, not a common feature. For those that care, you could turn off the amps that are not in use instead of the approach with a voltage trigger where all are on.